Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[ziia 9]

What is the problem?

Romania allows dual citizenship and you can use your Romanian passport to enter/exit Romania.

Actually, your Romanian passport gives you great privileges to move around the EU without limitations.

I have two passports and mostly use my Italian one when abroad.

As far as the place of birth, I don't think it's discriminations. American-born citizens have their place of birth too on their passports. Passport are issued according to international standards. Even on a US passport you have your date of birth in the DD/MMM/YYYY format.

I understand that but what if I don't want to use two Passports when I travel in order to get equal treatment? Don't you see something wrong with this picture at all? If anything should raise suspicions to US is a person using multiple Passports after they got the US citizenship. That is ridiculous and much much more confusing to the POE in US to try to figure out where the heck you've been since you didn't use just one Passport.

I can just see the POE officer: -So, what countries have you been visiting? Response: Here and there, I used 3-4 passports like the Afghan, Palestinian, Iraqi and Saudi Arabian. Now I use the American one . Then the officer: I see you were born in "Y" country...please go right in and welcome....now that you told me your country of birth, I have it all figured out what your business was in those countries you visited....nothing else here I need to know, moving on...

lol I mean, com'on are you kidding me??? Like Nick said, I see no reason what's so ever to keep that info on the US Passport for everyone to see.

They can leave the DD/MM/YYY in there, no one cares. They can also add other personal things we can be identified by but I don't see how the place of birth is a determining factor in whom a person is or what their intention is upon entering US.

Where does it say it is an international standard to have that info printed on the main page of the Passports of every country?

Edited March 9, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

You example is very good. But in my opinion, most naturalized Israelis who are US citizens have more allegiance to Israel than the US - this is the general problem with the picture.

I guess the summary of the issue is this: Not everyone who is a citizen of a different country fully understands the meaning of the oath. If they do, and if they really are honest with themselves, then most people will not take the oath since they will not give up the belonging feeling to the previous country.

I bet you this - most people, if the US goes to war with their country, will try to find a way out of it and defy the oath they took to bear arms and defend the US. This is exactly what I am trying to say.

:thumbs: EXACTLY! Very well said v33k. I bet you that MOST people don't understand the Oath they actually took and what US wants from us. Adding more confusion to this (like having to use 2-3 passports after you are a USC) creates even more separation between a USC born here and a naturalized one. Once we realize that and the US govmt realizes that as well, things will have to be adjusted...like the US Passport for starters.

Edited March 9, 2010 by ziia

[NickD 202]

Jason Bourne also has many passports, but he travels from country to country killing people. The only thing we want to do is to visit my wife's family once a year. Who cares if anyone has a bunch of passports, for those that do, that is your option. But being forced to do so is a far different story.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I perfectly understood the oath, and never in the US I will claim to be a foreign citizen.

However, Italy does not care about the oath I took and while in Italy I can't claim to be a US citizen.

And in any third country, I can claim to be either, or both. It's none of the US or Italian Government business.

If someone doesn't want to go through this, then he can go to a Consulate of their original country and formally renounce his/her other citizenship.

However, I don't see the need.

Tell me what the big deal is to use your romanian passport when entering Romania? And if you have a common Romanian last name that ends with a "u", believe me, they will notice, even if there's nothing on your passport.

Last time I re-entered the US, I have traveled to Egypt, Israel, Jordan, and Italy, always using my italian passport. I declared the countries I visited on the customs form and the immigration officer asked me what the purpose of my trip to Jordan was. She did not care that my US passport had no stamps. Once I said "tourism", she stamped it and that was it.

What confusion is to have two or more passports?

Especially if you have a EU passport, why would you give up your right to live and work in 27 other countries if you want to?

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I understand that but what if I don't want to use two Passports when I travel in order to get equal treatment? Don't you see something wrong with this picture at all? If anything should raise suspicions to US is a person using multiple Passports after they got the US citizenship. That is ridiculous and much much more confusing to the POE in US to try to figure out where the heck you've been since you didn't use just one Passport.

I can just see the POE officer: -So, what countries have you been visiting? Response: Here and there, I used 3-4 passports like the Afghan, Palestinian, Iraqi and Saudi Arabian. Now I use the American one . Then the officer: I see you were born in "Y" country...please go right in and welcome....now that you told me your country of birth, I have it all figured out what your business was in those countries you visited....nothing else here I need to know, moving on...

lol I mean, com'on are you kidding me??? Like Nick said, I see no reason what's so ever to keep that info on the US Passport for everyone to see.

They can leave the DD/MM/YYY in there, no one cares. They can also add other personal things we can be identified by but I don't see how the place of birth is a determining factor in whom a person is or what their intention is upon entering US.

Where does it say it is an international standard to have that info printed on the main page of the Passports of every country?

If you don't want to do that, you can go to a Romanian Consulate and formally renounce to your Romanian citizenship.

But as long as you are still a Romanian citizen, you will have to use your Romanian passport to enter/exit Romania.

It is their law, and you're subject to the laws of the country you're in, even if you are a US citizen.

Jason Bourne also has many passports, but he travels from country to country killing people. The only thing we want to do is to visit my wife's family once a year. Who cares if anyone has a bunch of passports, for those that do, that is your option. But being forced to do so is a far different story.

Your wife could go to a Colombian Consulate and formally give up her Colombian citizenship. That way, she won't be asked for a Colombian passport when going there.

[ziia 9]

If someone doesn't want to go through this, then he can go to a Consulate of their original country and formally renounce his/her other citizenship.

However, I don't see the need.

Of course they do. Giving up the former country citizenship doesn't automatically make the "country of birth" section in the US passport vanish, nor the mistreatment when you go visit another country, like the one you left to go live in US. I don't even see why the discussion came down to this in the first place...just like v33k said, we're talking about removing the COB off the US Passp. so we get an equal fair and square "welcome" and not be seen as "traitors" when we travel overseas.

Tell me what the big deal is to use your romanian passport when entering Romania? And if you have a common Romanian last name that ends with a "u", believe me, they will notice, even if there's nothing on your passport.

You made me laugh with the name ending in "u"-it is correct You do bring out a good point, but one can carry a Romanian name from his parents, he/she doesn't necessarily mean they were born in Romania just because of the name. Actually both my first, middle and last name are far from being Romanian names. Still I was born in Romania. If my COB would not be on the US Passport, then no one would ever know that and I would be viewed just like any other tourist-which is exactly as I want because that's what I am. I don't pay taxes there, don't work, don't live, don't vote there because i'm completely un-knowledgeable of the political scene there... my whole life is in US and will be here. I only go there to see my family. Giving up my Romanian citizenship(as far as i'm concerned I already did when I took the Oath here but whatever...) would do nothing for me, neither good nor bad, nor I will be treated better or worse. I don't want to use my Romanian passport out of principle and I don't believe Romania requires me to do so. From what i know, Romania recognizes other countries citizenship's and therefore Passports.

Last time I re-entered the US, I have traveled to Egypt, Israel, Jordan, and Italy, always using my italian passport. I declared the countries I visited on the customs form and the immigration officer asked me what the purpose of my trip to Jordan was. She did not care that my US passport had no stamps. Once I said "tourism", she stamped it and that was it.

That's because you were born in Italy lol...just joking!!!. Once again, US doesn't have a problem with where you were born but other countries do and they treat you differently once they see you became a citizen of US.....and that's what we are talking about in this thread.

What confusion is to have two or more passports?

Especially if you have a EU passport, why would you give up your right to live and work in 27 other countries if you want to?

There's no confusion. It's just my own perception of the whole thing that's different.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Of course they do. Giving up the former country citizenship doesn't automatically make the "country of birth" section in the US passport vanish, nor the mistreatment when you go visit another country, like the one you left to go live in US. I don't even see why the discussion came down to this in the first place...just like v33k said, we're talking about removing the COB off the US Passp. so we get an equal fair and square "welcome" and not be seen as "traitors" when we travel overseas.

You made me laugh with the name ending in "u"-it is correct You do bring out a good point, but one can carry a Romanian name from his parents, he/she doesn't necessarily mean they were born in Romania just because of the name. Actually both my first, middle and last name are far from being Romanian names. Still I was born in Romania. If my COB would not be on the US Passport, then no one would ever know that and I would be viewed just like any other tourist-which is exactly as I want because that's what I am. I don't pay taxes there, don't work, don't live, don't vote there because i'm completely un-knowledgeable of the political scene there... my whole life is in US and will be here. I only go there to see my family. Giving up my Romanian citizenship(as far as i'm concerned I already did when I took the Oath here but whatever...) would do nothing for me, neither good nor bad, nor I will be treated better or worse. I don't want to use my Romanian passport out of principle and I don't believe Romania requires me to do so. From what i know, Romania recognizes other countries citizenship's and therefore Passports.

That's because you were born in Italy lol...just joking!!!. Once again, US doesn't have a problem with where you were born but other countries do and they treat you differently once they see you became a citizen of US.....and that's what we are talking about in this thread.

There's no confusion. It's just my own perception of the whole thing that's different.

Other countries do not recognize the US oath of allegiance as an act of relinquishment of citizenship, exactly the same way the US doesn't recognize naturalization in other countries as an act of relinquishment of US citizenship (you have to go to a US Consulate abroad and submit a sworn statement to the consular office in order to give up US citizenship).

As far as they are concerned, you are still a citizen of their country and you must use that country's passport to enter/exit.

That's where the harassment comes from. If you formally renounce to Romanian citizenship, then you'll be a US citizen in Romania as well and they have no right to bother you.

I understand the country of birth remarks, but I think they should be over after you clear immigration.

I don't think leaving the country (or place) of birth will ever happen, especially for security reasons.

[ziia 9]

Other countries do not recognize the US oath of allegiance as an act of relinquishment of citizenship, exactly the same way the US doesn't recognize naturalization in other countries as an act of relinquishment of US citizenship (you have to go to a US Consulate abroad and submit a sworn statement to the consular office in order to give up US citizenship).

As far as they are concerned, you are still a citizen of their country and you must use that country's passport to enter/exit.

No. A country(with few exceptions) can't require you to enter as a citizen but as you wish: either as a tourist(with the Us Passport) OR as a citizen(with that country's Passport). It is up to the people what they want to do if they have dual citizenship. The only time a country can claim " citizenship ownership" over you is if you commit a crime on its territory or you enter to work and live there, in which case you are viewed as a citizen. When traveling, for tourist purposes(I can't speak for other countries) but in Romania you can enter and exit as you please, using either passport.

That's where the harassment comes from. If you formally renounce to Romanian citizenship, then you'll be a US citizen in Romania as well and they have no right to bother you.

As long as they see the "country of birth" as Romania in the US passport, they will treat you different, trust me. Some of my friends already warned me about that. They don't like to see you were born there and now you are a citizen of another country. Call it jealousy, unprofessional ism, discrimination, whatever...it just is and complaining about it over there to a manager will just get them to laugh in your face. The way around this issue is if the US Government removes the "country of birth" from under my picture in my US Passport and integrates it as a code ONLY in the chip that's on the cover of the passport.

For security reasons they can still leave that COB info in the Passport but not in such way that the Romanian POE officers can see "where I was born" too, do you know what I mean? It would help avoid certain not so pleasant experiences when I travel as a USC to Romania.

I don't think leaving the country (or place) of birth will ever happen, especially for security reasons.

Of course it can be done. Actually I'm pretty sure they will, eventually. It doesn't mean they have to actually remove. They can CONCEAL it in the Passport chip.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

No. A country(with few exceptions) can't require you to enter as a citizen but as you wish: either as a tourist(with the Us Passport) OR as a citizen(with that country's Passport). It is up to the people what they want to do if they have dual citizenship. The only time a country can claim " citizenship ownership" over you is if you commit a crime on its territory or you enter to work and live there, in which case you are viewed as a citizen. When traveling, for tourist purposes(I can't speak for other countries) but in Romania you can enter and exit as you please, using either passport.

I'm pretty sure it's the opposite.

Most countries require their citizens to enter and exit the country with the country's passport.

US, Italy, France, UK, Russia, Mexico, Ukraine, just to name a few.

Of course those are all countries that allow dual citizenship.

[ziia 9]

exactly the same way the US doesn't recognize naturalization in other countries as an act of relinquishment of US citizenship (you have to go to a US Consulate abroad and submit a sworn statement to the consular office in order to give up US citizenship).

It's actually written right on the 1st page of the US Passport that if you acquire the citizenship of another country, you will automatically loose the US Citizenship. There might be few if any exceptions to this rule, but the language itself it's pretty hard to misinterpret.

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);

2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);

3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);

4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);

5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);

6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);

7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

It's actually written right on the 1st page of the US Passport that if you acquire the citizenship of another country, you will automatically loose the US Citizenship. There might be few if any exceptions to this rule, but the language itself it's pretty hard to misinterpret.

No. Much has been said and discussed about this.

My US citizen wife actually became an Italian citizen last week.

You must go to a US Consulate abroad and officially give up your US citizenship in front of a consular officer (also paperwork involved).

And I heard it's not even that easy to do.

There's millions of US citizens who acquired foreign citizenships as well, either iure sanguinis, through marriage, or through residence.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

It's actually written right on the 1st page of the US Passport that if you acquire the citizenship of another country, you will automatically loose the US Citizenship. There might be few if any exceptions to this rule, but the language itself it's pretty hard to misinterpret.

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);

2. taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);

3. entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);

4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);

5. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer outside the United States (sec. 349 (a) (5) INA);

6. formally renouncing U.S. citizenship within the U.S. (but only under strict, narrow statutory conditions) (Sec. 349 (a) (6) INA);

7. conviction for an act of treason (Sec. 349 (a) (7) INA).

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

The intention of relinquishing US citizenship can be expressed only in front of a US consular officer.

Or you are convicted of treason... and there hasn't been a treason case in the US in the last 50 years.

[ziia 9]

No. Much has been said and discussed about this.

My US citizen wife actually became an Italian citizen last week.

You must go to a US Consulate abroad and officially give up your US citizenship in front of a consular officer (also paperwork involved).

And I heard it's not even that easy to do.

There's millions of US citizens who acquired foreign citizenships as well, either iure sanguinis, through marriage, or through residence.

She took the Oath in Italy?

The only thing I can say about it is that it is hard for US to find out if she acquired citizenship of another country by choice..... Some exception might happen to minor children(babies) who acquire citizenship of another country because it can be proven by lawyers that it was not by choice(the kid was too young and didn't know) but as far as your wife is concerned, if she swore allegiance to another country ...uhhh, i'd probably keep this as quiet as possible....i'm just saying....

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

She took the Oath in Italy?

The only thing I can say about it is that it is hard for US to find out if she acquired citizenship of another country by choice..... Some exception might happen to minor children(babies) who acquire citizenship of another country because it can be proven by lawyers that it was not by choice(the kid was too young and didn't know) but as far as your wife is concerned, if she swore allegiance to another country ...uhhh, i'd probably keep this as quiet as possible....i'm just saying....

She took the oath at the italian consulate in Los Angeles.

And no worries, last year, before applying, I sent an email to the State Dept and the US Consulate in Milan and they told there's no problem at all and that losing US citizenship is pretty impossible, unless you do that at US Consulate or fight against US forces (treason).

[ziia 9]

The intention of relinquishing US citizenship can be expressed only in front of a US consular officer.

Or you are convicted of treason... and there hasn't been a treason case in the US in the last 50 years.

Still, I would not go around telling people about it. I might be wrong but like I said it's very hard to misinterpret the language on the US passport. Maybe other VJ's can give a different opinion on this?