Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[v333k 59]

I am a bit lost on where the subject is at right now.

What I would like to point out is that the subject started not for trying to "fool" TSA when entering the US, but there are people, like the Venezuelans and myself (not from Venezuela) would prefer not to place this on the passport for the purposes of visiting our birth-place country. In so many cases, those countries would profile and would treat you differently than how they should a US Citizen born in the US. This is the whole idea behind this thread.

When the US wants to find out where I have been and what I did outside the US to protect the people and the land, then I don't see an issue and I will not consider it profiling because I got naturalized instead of born in the US.

Completely two different scenarios where this thread started and where it is now.....

[MoroccanInTexas 24]

Our issue is with the foreign POE, and not the US. This issue can be solved, and fixed here in the US, if there is a political will to do so.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I don't think you understand. It has noting to do with being ashamed but a complete different perspective, more of a social perspective than anything else. The issue I and others have raised is different and I don't expect everybody to get it because it deals with the feeling of discrimination...and those kind of feelings are not always understood or perceived the same way by every person. It is not a matter of black and white for me, I have yet to travel with my US Passport to see if I'll have any issues in my birth country. But let me tell you, I KNOW ahead that I will encounter some "not so nice" looks or treatments at the POE in Romania. They do NOT like it when you gain the citizenship of another country and most people there are extremely judgmental, unless you know them or they are your family. People with a job in Romania, if they actually DO their job, act as if they do you a favor. They won't necessarily ask you for money but they DO expect you give them a bribe for treating you nicely or fairly. THAT is my issue, not that i was born there. My whole family is there and i return with great pleasure each time. On top of that, nothing gives me greater pleasure than to say: I have 100% Romanian blood pulsing through my veins but an American heart.

I'm sorry, I don't see any difference between me and a born here citizen except for the fact that I can't ever become President of US and that is fine. The rest is just a matter of sensitivity certain issues regarding discrimination. I hope you get my point and if not, that's fine too. I do think it should be an option when you apply for a US Passport, wether you want your country of birth mentioned in there or not. Leave it up to the people, that's the American way, no?

What is the problem?

Romania allows dual citizenship and you can use your Romanian passport to enter/exit Romania.

Actually, your Romanian passport gives you great privileges to move around the EU without limitations.

I have two passports and mostly use my Italian one when abroad.

As far as the place of birth, I don't think it's discriminations. American-born citizens have their place of birth too on their passports. Passport are issued according to international standards. Even on a US passport you have your date of birth in the DD/MMM/YYYY format.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

And just to be clear, there's no such thing as "previous country of birth".

We can hold multiple citizenships, but there's only one country of birth. Nobody could ever change that.

[v333k 59]

What is the problem?

Romania allows dual citizenship and you can use your Romanian passport to enter/exit Romania.

Actually, your Romanian passport gives you great privileges to move around the EU without limitations.

I have two passports and mostly use my Italian one when abroad.

As far as the place of birth, I don't think it's discriminations. American-born citizens have their place of birth too on their passports. Passport are issued according to international standards. Even on a US passport you have your date of birth in the DD/MMM/YYYY format.

Some other countries do not allow dual citizenship, and when you go to your birth country for a visit, they will see that you were born in that country - this is enough for them to give you a lot of trouble because in their eyes, you abandoned/betrayed/etc... them.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

If a person chooses to travel with that country's passport then i'd agree with you. But if a person uses the US Passport to travel as an US Citizen and people are treated differently because of that, then the blame splits in two: the POE officers of Colombia, Romania etc. and the US. People tend to focus on where the problem begins(US issued doc) and not so much where the problem projects. After all we are citizens of this county, no? Former countries have no say in how the US Government makes the decision to release any US documents for its citizens. You said it yourself, the US doesn't recognize the ties to former countries when you become a citizen and definitely doesn't owe anything to a country that as you say, might "not let go of you".

I disagree.

Unless you went to a Consular Office and formally gave up your other citizenship, then in most cases you are still a citizen of the other country, if that country allows dual citizenship.

Therefore, you have to follow the other country's rules when going there. And if their rules say that you have to use the other passport to enter/exit (just like you have to use a US passport when entering/exiting the US), then there's no other way around it.

Some countries do not even permit their citizens to ever give up their citizenship.

As far as I know, since I have a friend who's dual US-Romanian citizen (and actually works in Italy because of her Romanian passport), Romania allows dual citizenship. You should keep your Romanian passport as well and use it when visiting Romania.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Some other countries do not allow dual citizenship, and when you go to your birth country for a visit, they will see that you were born in that country - this is enough for them to give you a lot of trouble because in their eyes, you abandoned/betrayed/etc... them.

I don't see any problem at all. It's that Government that doesn't allow dual citizenship, so the person had no choice but giving up the former citizenship and entering with a US passport.

Apart from Cuba, which obviously does not have a diplomatic relationship with the US, I don't know any other country that could create problems.

For the Ukrainian friend: my wife was born in Kiev and moved to the US when she was 9. We visited Ukraine in 2007 and she used her US passport with "Ukraine" as place of birth. No problem at all, and it's not like it wasn't noticed because they spoke in Russian to her and they just asked standard immigration questions.

[v333k 59]

We just got back from Colombia to visit my wife's family, I sure didn't have problems neither entering or leaving but my wife sure did. I am a natural born USC, wife is a naturalized citizen of the USA.

Going in as long as that line was, took her a full ten minutes to explain, her place of birth on her US passport, she could not apply for a Colombian passport at the consulate in Chicago because her Colombian ID was already over thirty years old. Was told she had to go to Colombia to renew that first, that she tried to explain to the immigration guy at the POE. It's a catch 22 position they put you in, like you can't get into the country unless you have a Colombian passport, but can't get one until you enter the country to update your Colombian ID. He finally let her in.

Was a mess for us chasing all over Bogota, even though we brought all of her original records with us, they wanted new ones meaning we had to go to a notary, the documents were identical to the ones we brought in, but were a couple of hundred bucks poorer in the process. She was told it would take six months to a year to ger her ID even though all of her papers were in order. Kind of reminded me, of what would happen to you here if you lost your green card.

Leaving Colombia was just as bad for her as they claimed she again needed that Colombian passport to leave the country, again a lot of explaining to do, did show the application for her new ID, thankfully, they let her leave.

We have no intentions of moving to Colombia, just want to visit her family. Not in a position to blame the Colombian government nor the USA government for putting her place of birth on her US passport. But can only say, since they do put her place of birth on her US passport, she is NOT a USC just like me.

Italian_in_NYC,

What do you think about Nick's story? As you said, most countries could care less but there are a few that are just a pain in the *** when it comes to things like this. I am sure when I get naturalized and visit my home country, I will get similar treatment to Nick's wife...

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Let's also not forget that other countries might be interested in knowing where you were born, especially when carrying a US passport (The US are the most diverse country in the world and most likely the one with most naturalized citizens).

Place of birth is an anagraphic detail, just like our name or date of birth. It serves as an identification mean.

And of course is not to be confused with nationality or citizenship.

Countries could refuse entry for any reason or for no reason at all, even when carrying a US passport.

Try to go to Cuba with a US passport with no place of birth and your last name is Martinez or Castro. I don't think they'll let you enter.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Italian_in_NYC,

What do you think about Nick's story? As you said, most countries could care less but there are a few that are just a pain in the *** when it comes to things like this. I am sure when I get naturalized and visit my home country, I will get similar treatment to Nick's wife...

I think Colombia has no problem with US citizens born in Colombia and naturalized in the US.

However, according to their law (which is very similar to many other countries' laws, including US and most western european countries) you're still a Colombian citizen when you naturalize and must use a Colombian passport to enter or exit Colombia.

Burocracy is a ###### in many countries, but it is your responsibility as a Colombian citizen to keep your documents current.

I just moved to Los Angeles and the two things I did first were getting a California DL and register with the Italian Consulate. And I'll make sure to renew my italian passport before it expires in 2017 so I won't have any problem when going there (the law, very similar, says that I must use my italian passport to enter/exit Italy).

Having two passports in most cases is a privilege that gives you many advantages. Let's not make it sound like an inconvenience.

As far as place of birth, even if the US State Dept lets you leave it blank, which I doubt will ever happen, I can easily see problems when traveling abroad.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Sachinky, I find your arguments to be loaded with assumptions, ridiculous, and absurb, the subject is the DOS putting a persons place of birth on their passport. And you yet have to provide any logical reason for justifying this procedure.

A person applying for USC has taken an oath to be allegiant to this country, and to serve it and defend it, even in time of war, pay taxes and comparing a person to one that is a natural born citizen being more allegiant to this country is ludicrous. Thousands of natural born citizens left this country to avoid being drafted during the Viet Nam war. Your arguments do not carry any weight.

Speaking of taking an oath, at the ripe old age of 18 and being drafted, was forced to take an oath to defend this country, if I didn't as well as others, would have been tossed in jail. My wife and others have freely taken an oath to serve this country. If a person natural born or naturalized refuses to serve their country, it doesn't make any difference, either will have to face the consequences, but that will be dealt with at that time if this ever occurs.

In my wife's situation, all we want to do is to visit her family once a year, she is no longer allegiant to Colombia, she is a USC! But because her place of birth is placed by our DOS on her US passport, Colombia is putting a claim on her and we are forced to comply with their laws so she can visit her family. At great expense, we had to update her Colombian ID and now wait up to a year to get her new ID. Then make a long trip to Chicago to force her to get a Colombian passport.

I think it's fair and reasonable for me to ask, why? If Colombia wanted us to get a visa, both her and I, to visit their country, that is their option. We will have to get that visa.

Nick, you're wrong.

She's not a USC according to Colombian authorities. She's a Colombian citizen, unless she formally renounced her citizenship in front of a consular officer abroad.

Therefore they want to see her colombian passport.

If you think about it, it's the same thing in the US. I'm a dual Italy/US citizen and let's say that I move to Italy permanently. I definitely do not lose my US citizenship, but I can NOT use my italian passport when visiting the US.

The same thing is true for somebody born in the US who lives permanently abroad and has another citizenship as well. They must use a US passport to enter the US.

[v333k 59]

Let's also not forget that other countries might be interested in knowing where you were born, especially when carrying a US passport (The US are the most diverse country in the world and most likely the one with most naturalized citizens).

Place of birth is an anagraphic detail, just like our name or date of birth. It serves as an identification mean.

And of course is not to be confused with nationality or citizenship.

Countries could refuse entry for any reason or for no reason at all, even when carrying a US passport.

Try to go to Cuba with a US passport with no place of birth and your last name is Martinez or Castro. I don't think they'll let you enter.

That is true, but as a US citizen, I deserve to be treated as any US Citizen by birth. That's what the oath is all about...

"I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state. My fidelity and allegiance from this day forward is to the United States of America. "

The fact that I was born in a different country should no longer matter as long as we are under the same law and constitution. Being from Italy may not give you this speed bump and may not even expose you to the same situation others may face, and therefore, you remain indifferent about it.

Everyone, upon taking the oath, should and must understand what it stands for and what it is. You cannot go back and say well I was a citizen of country X.

By the way, I am in no means trying to be rude regarding your answer, but if you stand in our shoes, you may have a different opinion regarding this matter.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

That is true, but as a US citizen, I deserve to be treated as any US Citizen by birth. That's what the oath is all about...

"I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state. My fidelity and allegiance from this day forward is to the United States of America. "

The fact that I was born in a different country should no longer matter as long as we are under the same law and constitution. Being from Italy may not give you this speed bump and may not even expose you to the same situation others may face, and therefore, you remain indifferent about it.

Everyone, upon taking the oath, should and must understand what it stands for and what it is. You cannot go back and say well I was a citizen of country X.

By the way, I am in no means trying to be rude regarding your answer, but if you stand in our shoes, you may have a different opinion regarding this matter.

The US Govt will treat all of us naturalized citizens as natural-born citizens, and not doing so would be against the Constitution.

But other Govt don't care. You will have the same entry requirement as any other US citizen at their POE, but remember that they could refuse you entry for any reason or no reason at all. It's completely discretionary.

For example, I doubt that a US citizen born in Israel would be allowed to enter Saudi Arabia (in this case you need a visa, so at least they save you a trip there). And the US Government can do nothing about it.

[v333k 59]

The US Govt will treat all of us naturalized citizens as natural-born citizens, and not doing so would be against the Constitution.

But other Govt don't care. You will have the same entry requirement as any other US citizen at their POE, but remember that they could refuse you entry for any reason or no reason at all. It's completely discretionary.

For example, I doubt that a US citizen born in Israel would be allowed to enter Saudi Arabia (in this case you need a visa, so at least they save you a trip there). And the US Government can do nothing about it.

You example is very good. But in my opinion, most naturalized Israelis who are US citizens have more allegiance to Israel than the US - this is the general problem with the picture.

I guess the summary of the issue is this: Not everyone who is a citizen of a different country fully understands the meaning of the oath. If they do, and if they really are honest with themselves, then most people will not take the oath since they will not give up the belonging feeling to the previous country.

I bet you this - most people, if the US goes to war with their country, will try to find a way out of it and defy the oath they took to bear arms and defend the US. This is exactly what I am trying to say.

[NickD 202]

Nick, you're wrong.

She's not a USC according to Colombian authorities. She's a Colombian citizen, unless she formally renounced her citizenship in front of a consular officer abroad.

Therefore they want to see her colombian passport.

If you think about it, it's the same thing in the US. I'm a dual Italy/US citizen and let's say that I move to Italy permanently. I definitely do not lose my US citizenship, but I can NOT use my italian passport when visiting the US.

The same thing is true for somebody born in the US who lives permanently abroad and has another citizenship as well. They must use a US passport to enter the US.

I am wrong in just asking a simple question why the Department of State is putting the place of birth on a US passport? Okay, I am wrong.

Just thought since my wife received her USC and US passport, she would be free to travel just like I am, this is one area where I was definitely wrong. She not only has to maintain a Venezuelan passport but a Columbian passport as well, and not easy as there are only a tiny handful of these consulates in the USA. The Venezuelan passport is only good for five years, not sure about the Colombian passport, her real old one was only good for two years.

Because our Department of State puts down your place of birth, she is not free to travel like I am. Is this an incorrect statement?