Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[NickD 202]

Here is a copy of a letter I composed and sent to Obama, Feingold, and Obey. Free free to use it, the more the better. This does work at times!

" My wife had to take this oath to become a US citizen and was told at the oath ceremony, she is a USC just as if she was born here.

“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;

that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;

that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;

that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and

that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

But from a requirement of the Department of State, her place of Birth is listed as Colombia, and because she was born there when they see this on her US passport, she is required to obtain a Colombian passport. I have the same US passport and can enter that country freely to visit my in-laws.

If on the other hand, her place of birth was shown as Bloomington, MN where she was naturalized this would not be a problem for us and her US passport would suffice, she still has family in Colombia and do to strict requirements for Colombians to obtain a US visa, they cannot come and visit us.

It seems due to this place of birth requirement by our DOS it contradicts the oath given by the USCIS in that she still has to show allegiance to her home country by maintaining a Colombian passport.

Please indicate your feelings on this subject, her place of birth is also shown on her US citizen certificate. So how can she be a USC, if she is still forced to maintain a passport from her former country?

Sincerely yours."

[Ulrich 0]

Hello All!

I am glad to have found that I am not alone with the problem. Every time I travel to Europe, I have to bear stigmata attached to my country of birth, Ukraine. Longer wait at the border checks and customs, unnecessary searches and the abuse from the officials working there or any authority figure who gets a hold of my passport. People have weird ways of dealing with their history, and Europeans have a frequent tendency to vent on anyone with even the slightest connection to the ex-USSR. Granted, I am not getting cavity searched everywhere I go, but enough stress is felt every time I get off the air plane. To make things worse, Russia still has sore fillings over Ukrainian independence. They also blame USA for this. If I was "just an American" or "just a citizen of Ukraine" it would be fine, but the "combination" creates an animosity the moment a border guard or a policeman looks into my passport. Ukrainians in turn are overly sensitive for people leaving their country as emigrants and view me a traitor with all the "VIP treatment" at the border checkpoints attached. Truth is, as much as I like the place, I was born way before its' independence, left it when I was a kid and I am not even an ethnic Ukrainian by definition. Putting a city instead of a state won't help a bit: there is only one city with that name and even a school kid will be able to recognize it.

One may suggest: don't travel if that is such a pain in the butt. No, problem, I say, but my employer thinks differently.

When people are harassed by criminals in US, they can get an identity change. I don't need that big of a transformation. But there has to be some way to get this injustice fixed. Perhaps writing to a representative is a good idea.

[MoroccanInTexas 24]

I think it is about time to "Petition the government"...

[Ulrich 0]

I think it is about time to "Petition the government"...

Problem is, whom does one petition? This is hardly a central matter, more like a subject for a congressman/senator-back-at-home-state type of pestering. However, take the people gathered at this forum: we are all over the place. So a good question to start with is: how does one help from "spreading too thin"? A single letter, even if it sits on the desk of 10 individual senators ain't going to cut it.

[NickD 202]

Problem is, whom does one petition? This is hardly a central matter, more like a subject for a congressman/senator-back-at-home-state type of pestering. However, take the people gathered at this forum: we are all over the place. So a good question to start with is: how does one help from "spreading too thin"? A single letter, even if it sits on the desk of 10 individual senators ain't going to cut it.

It could be a worthless effort, but not as worthless as b!tching to each other about it, and at least you had your say. Took me all but ten minutes to compose that letter, and with internet access to my president, senator, and congressman, about five minutes to send it off. Just copied and pasted it

Can also use the argument, if you don't spend a buck on a lottery ticket, your odds of winning are zero, but just an extremely slim chance of winning if you do. Odds of sending a letter are far greater if the right person reads them. Trying to gather perhaps millions of people in this same boat would be monumental. And just two letters would be far better than one.

What I would really like to see is Washington DC moved to the exact geographical center of the USA, pull the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights out, and burn all the rest of it. We have far way too many redundant and even stupid laws. Time to start from scratch. Do we really need 1,525 governmental agencies and over 13,000 pages of IRS tax laws? Impossible to keep track of this, and perhaps some authority from the DOS will realize all the money they can make by issuing new passports. Money always works.

[Ulrich 0]

It could be a worthless effort, but not as worthless as b!tching to each other about it, and at least you had your say. Took me all but ten minutes to compose that letter, and with internet access to my president, senator, and congressman, about five minutes to send it off. Just copied and pasted it

Can also use the argument, if you don't spend a buck on a lottery ticket, your odds of winning are zero, but just an extremely slim chance of winning if you do. Odds of sending a letter are far greater if the right person reads them. Trying to gather perhaps millions of people in this same boat would be monumental. And just two letters would be far better than one.

What I would really like to see is Washington DC moved to the exact geographical center of the USA, pull the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights out, and burn all the rest of it. We have far way too many redundant and even stupid laws. Time to start from scratch. Do we really need 1,525 governmental agencies and over 13,000 pages of IRS tax laws? Impossible to keep track of this, and perhaps some authority from the DOS will realize all the money they can make by issuing new passports. Money always works.

Well, I have been pondering over this for a few hours and then I had a thought: American Civil Liberties Union

Read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aclu

This certainly sounds like their kind of area and they have way more experience in those matters. So, I think I will start with them once I get a free moment.

[NickD 202]

Well, I have been pondering over this for a few hours and then I had a thought: American Civil Liberties Union

Read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aclu

This certainly sounds like their kind of area and they have way more experience in those matters. So, I think I will start with them once I get a free moment.

More of us here then I thought, well besides my wife and daughter.

"In 2006, the number of immigrants totaled 37.5 million. A record 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008."

Wonder how many of these immigrants were naturalized and interested in changing the current policy of place of birth on their US passports? Will also look into the ACLU.

[NickD 202]

Well, I have been pondering over this for a few hours and then I had a thought: American Civil Liberties Union

Read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aclu

This certainly sounds like their kind of area and they have way more experience in those matters. So, I think I will start with them once I get a free moment.

Found my local ACLU office with an e-mail address, send a quick not telling them, the hardships this place of birth is causing us and many others, and asked their opinion of it for naturalized citizens. Also a copy of the oath and the contradictions it causes. See what happens, hundreds of you can do the same thing, in less than ten minutes.

[antda 13]

Hi Everyone,

More replies....

Sure wouldn't help a person if they listed Jerusalem instead of Israel, or Bogota instead of Colombia, really quite obvious what country you are from.

NickD-Likewise, it would be VERY OBVIOUS in my case too.....It doesn't take a geography expert to figure that one out...lol......

Hi Ant, and everyone!

I finally got a chance to look into it... basically, if filing stateless means not putting any information under the nationality section.

Thanks for all your replies!

V333k-Can this really be done? Can one put "blank" on the nationality section? I'm curious....

Let me and everyone else on VJ know and how it turns out if you do get this done.....

Bottom line is that if you question any agency regarding their laws or procedures, they will bounce back and state these laws or procedures were made by congress. So it doesn't do any good to argue with them, have to go to congress. And it does do good to contact your representatives as I see some wording changes in the IRS forms that I objected to that cleared up then nebulous method they used to ask a question.

The place of birth is an excellent example of this in creating a hardship if that home country does require a USC to maintain a passport for that country, where any natural born USC can visit that same country without a visa with their US passport. Leaving the key question, are you really a USC or not. And we certainly do not have bilateral agreements with many countries, as USC's, we are free to visit there, but next to impossible for them to get a visa to visit us.

While we can pull a spouse out of a foreign country, certainly cannot bring their entire family here and they do like to visit occasionally, that place of birth does present a hardship.

Time to write a very short meaningful letter to your congressman to see if this minor procedure can be changed. One think about the USA, we are a nation of all nationalities and our naturalized citizens showing complete allegiance to this country should not be penalized by this place of birth requirement.

I would opt instead for the place where the naturalization took place. You cannot start a new life if hindered by your past.

NickD-I agree...It does create hardship....and time to write the congressman about this.....

After all, when we are naturalized, we are "born again Americans!"......

I agree too...(and I really like this statement..Can I quote you on this?)..."You cannot start a new life if hindered by your past!"..

Lol..I was "born again" in Buffalo, NY...That works well for me....

Place of Naturalization=Place of Birth...I like that!

Now...Let's see if the passport offices will agree about that too....

Maybe we should start a petition. And try to get some media attention to this issue. Ant D you are good with words, can you please put something together that we can send to our congress members, and maybe share with other VJ members ?

On another note, I think Jerusalem is listed as such, since it is still contested legally between the two countries...

MoroccanInTexas-Good idea about a petition! I'm not sure about how to start this though....

Lol..Thanks for the compliment that I'm "good with words"... But I honestly don't think that I'm that good....

And I think everyone's circumstances are different and live in different areas too..So I'm not sure how I would approach this.....

For example, my situation mainly deals with travel between the USA and Canada as an American/Canadian/some birth other country.....

Don't think this applies to you (or anyone else here on VJ) really...So my letter wouldn't be like anyone else's letter.....

Nevertheless, yes..I think we can get some kind of a general petition thing going.....

Anyone else have any thoughts/ideas about how to write such?

Ant

Edited February 19, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[v333k 59]

V333k-Can this really be done? Can one put "blank" on the nationality section? I'm curious....

Let me and everyone else on VJ know and how it turns out if you do get this done.....

For AOS - it seems like it. I have a copy of the application the lawyer filed for us, and there is nothing written in the Nationality section. However, if you read the N-400, the section for nationality, you need to write something even if you are stateless. I think the point here is that you are about to be naturalized, so it doesn't really matter what you were.

Edited February 19, 2010 by v333k

[antda 13]

More Replies....

Here is a copy of a letter I composed and sent to Obama, Feingold, and Obey. Free free to use it, the more the better. This does work at times!

" My wife had to take this oath to become a US citizen and was told at the oath ceremony, she is a USC just as if she was born here.

“I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

But from a requirement of the Department of State, her place of Birth is listed as Colombia, and because she was born there when they see this on her US passport, she is required to obtain a Colombian passport. I have the same US passport and can enter that country freely to visit my in-laws.

If on the other hand, her place of birth was shown as Bloomington, MN where she was naturalized this would not be a problem for us and her US passport would suffice, she still has family in Colombia and do to strict requirements for Colombians to obtain a US visa, they cannot come and visit us.

It seems due to this place of birth requirement by our DOS it contradicts the oath given by the USCIS in that she still has to show allegiance to her home country by maintaining a Colombian passport.

Please indicate your feelings on this subject, her place of birth is also shown on her US citizen certificate. So how can she be a USC, if she is still forced to maintain a passport from her former country? Sincerely yours."

NickD-Great letter! And if you do send it off, good luck to you and your wife about getting something done about this issue. And yes, do update us on VJ as to what happens afterwards...

Interesting too, that you quoted the oath requirements (I like that!) and that you explained your situation about Columbia (I never knew about that before). I agree, your wife shouldn't have to keep a Columbian passport, just because of some DOS American requirement...Extreme hardship, indeed!

Hello All!

I am glad to have found that I am not alone with the problem. Every time I travel to Europe, I have to bear stigmata attached to my country of birth, Ukraine. Longer wait at the border checks and customs, unnecessary searches and the abuse from the officials working there or any authority figure who gets a hold of my passport. People have weird ways of dealing with their history, and Europeans have a frequent tendency to vent on anyone with even the slightest connection to the ex-USSR. Granted, I am not getting cavity searched everywhere I go, but enough stress is felt every time I get off the air plane. To make things worse, Russia still has sore fillings over Ukrainian independence. They also blame USA for this. If I was "just an American" or "just a citizen of Ukraine" it would be fine, but the "combination" creates an animosity the moment a border guard or a policeman looks into my passport. Ukrainians in turn are overly sensitive for people leaving their country as emigrants and view me a traitor with all the "VIP treatment" at the border checkpoints attached. Truth is, as much as I like the place, I was born way before its' independence, left it when I was a kid and I am not even an ethnic Ukrainian by definition. Putting a city instead of a state won't help a bit: there is only one city with that name and even a school kid will be able to recognize it.

One may suggest: don't travel if that is such a pain in the butt. No, problem, I say, but my employer thinks differently.

When people are harassed by criminals in US, they can get an identity change. I don't need that big of a transformation. But there has to be some way to get this injustice fixed. Perhaps writing to a representative is a good idea.

Hrycian-Glad to hear that you have a similar problem too! I agree, there are stigmas attached to birth country...

Likewise, I've had problems travelling and in other things because of "birth country requirements" too...So I totally understand that too...

Not travelling is not an option.....Not living in America is not an option...

The only option...Get this injustice fixed! Putting a city instead of a state won't help either...Sigh....

Likewise, it would be VERY OBVIOUS in my case too.....It doesn't take a geography expert to figure that one out...lol......Sigh....

I think it is about time to "Petition the government"...

MoroccanInTexas-I agree! Petition the Government!

What good is a right/freedom if we can't use it? So use it! Petition the Government!

Problem is, whom does one petition? This is hardly a central matter, more like a subject for a congressman/senator-back-at-home-state type of pestering. However, take the people gathered at this forum: we are all over the place. So a good question to start with is: how does one help from "spreading too thin"? A single letter, even if it sits on the desk of 10 individual senators ain't going to cut it.

Ulrich-Good question....Congressman, Senator, Those at the Passport Office...Are the first things that come to mind...

Lol..Would even take it to court too if I had the money and the means (I don't....but if I did I would...)

In the meantime, we have to start somewhere...So elected officals it is...Better than nothing, right?

It could be a worthless effort, but not as worthless as b!tching to each other about it, and at least you had your say. Took me all but ten minutes to compose that letter, and with internet access to my president, senator, and congressman, about five minutes to send it off. Just copied and pasted it

Can also use the argument, if you don't spend a buck on a lottery ticket, your odds of winning are zero, but just an extremely slim chance of winning if you do. Odds of sending a letter are far greater if the right person reads them. Trying to gather perhaps millions of people in this same boat would be monumental. And just two letters would be far better than one.

What I would really like to see is Washington DC moved to the exact geographical center of the USA, pull the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights out, and burn all the rest of it. We have far way too many redundant and even stupid laws. Time to start from scratch. Do we really need 1,525 governmental agencies and over 13,000 pages of IRS tax laws? Impossible to keep track of this, and perhaps some authority from the DOS will realize all the money they can make by issuing new passports. Money always works.

NickD-Odds are slim, I agree...But it is worth a try anyways...Better than nothing, right? One letter is better than none at all...

Lol..So true..money works..wish we had more of it though...Sure wasted a lot of it on the USCIS.....I'm still waiting on my refund..lol....

Everyone-I encourage you all to write to your elected officials and explain your "unique" "birth country" situation and how it creates a "hardship" to you..

And who knows....Maybe changes will be made for the better!....

Ant

[antda 13]

More Replies...

Well, I have been pondering over this for a few hours and then I had a thought: American Civil Liberties Union

Read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aclu

This certainly sounds like their kind of area and they have way more experience in those matters. So, I think I will start with them once I get a free moment.

Ulrich-Thanks for the link....I'll definitely look that up...

I never knew that such an organization existed....Great to find another group that is supportive of the cause!

Hopefully they can help there...And if you do contact them...Do let us know here on VJ how that went too...

More of us here then I thought, well besides my wife and daughter.

"In 2006, the number of immigrants totaled 37.5 million. A record 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008."

Wonder how many of these immigrants were naturalized and interested in changing the current policy of place of birth on their US passports? Will also look into the ACLU.

NickD-Lol..I was surprised too, to find others on a similar situation as me...

I just posted this as more of a question of curiousity and in wanting change for my case...

I never knew others had a similar problem either....

I'm sure there are more of us out there that we have yet to find....

And then there are others who go with the 'status quo' and just accept things the way they are....(which is too bad, really)

But we are not of such...I say..Let's fight this issue!

Interesting too, that there are so many new naturalized immigrants each year (good stats there)....Wow!

I can see a whole new line of hallmark greeting cards here...Happy Naturalization Day!....lol.....

Found my local ACLU office with an e-mail address, send a quick not telling them, the hardships this place of birth is causing us and many others, and asked their opinion of it for naturalized citizens. Also a copy of the oath and the contradictions it causes. See what happens, hundreds of you can do the same thing, in less than ten minutes.

NickD-Great to hear that you found your local ACLU office and contacted them....

Hopefully they can help there...And if you do contact them...Do let us know here on VJ how that went too...

For AOS - it seems like it. I have a copy of the application the lawyer filed for us, and there is nothing written in the Nationality section. However, if you read the N-400, the section for nationality, you need to write something even if you are stateless. I think the point here is that you are about to be naturalized, so it doesn't really matter what you were.

V333k-Interesting that you filed such for your AOS and had no problems with that. Glad that turned out well for you...

Unforunate for you for the N-400 though..Hope you get that one sorted out...

It's probably beacause there is a ..."Former country of citizenship" blank on the Naturalization certificate...So they have to fill it out with something..

Not sure if they can fill out "stateless" for that though..would be interesting if they actually do such..

And yes, do keep us all here in VJ updated on your N-400 situation....Good luck with that...

I agree...The point...It doesn't matter who you were before..Once you are naturalized...You are an American!

Now...If only the USCIS and DOS can see this point of view...Sigh...

Ant

[ziia 9]

I am so glad you guys brought this up. I was surprised when I received my US Passport to see the country of birth mentioned there. I asked myself what's the point of that? since in my mind at least i am born American now. Sure my mom gave birth to me in Romania, but why state that on the American Passport? I don' get it. For example they can replace the country of birth part with an "Exception: Can not become POTUS". I have not yet used my US passport to travel overseas and see if I have any difficulties because of my "country of birth" still, when I opened it, my first thought was "wow, that's a bit of discrimination, right there". I mean if I am an American, by guns, let me be one all the way right?

When i took the Oath of Allegiance the judge told us that this is our country now and we can consider that we've been "born again". Well, that's how I felt too...until i saw my brand new US Passport lol. I will write ACLU as well as I think this is really something they should consider looking into.

I am proud of where I was born and where I grew up and also proud to be an American but I don't see the point in having my "place of birth" on my Pass. I mean Why? Put the POTUS exception That should be more than enough and certainly more just.

Edited February 20, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

Put the POTUS exception

I meant exemption not exception.

[MoroccanInTexas 24]

I think we have many valid ideas here, on how to face the issue. We can write to ACLU. Get our states senators/representatives involved. Write to the immigration congress committee. http://judiciary.senate.gov/about/subcommi...immigration.cfm

Personally, I would write to John Cornyn, Texas (Ranking Member), telling him that any immigration reform has to include this place of birth issue.