Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[ziia 9]

Many actions in regards to international measure, especially international travel, are reciprocal.

I give you a few examples that I experienced:

When the US took off Brazil from the VWP list (countries whose citizens do not need a vosa to enter the US as tourist), Brazil immediately required all US citizens to obtain a visa to enter Brazil.

The visa fee for Russia changes from country to country. US citizens have to pay a higher fee because it mirrors exactly the fee that US Consulates charge to Russian citizens when applying for a US visa.

- They will not accept the passport as valid (or you have to carry proof of place of birth along with your passport)

- They will ask that their citizens are permitted to do the same when entering the US

I'd have to agree that everything you said above makes a lot of sense. Now I understand this issue a bit better.

I can't help myself but make a bit of an observation to countries like Russia and Brazil: That is not a good way to run a business lol. Most likely they will loose "customers" A lot of Russians and Brazilians want to come to US, I'm not sure it balances with the number of Americans who desperately want to go to those countries. It would be in the best interest of Russia and Brazil citizens and economy to facilitate as much as possible the entrance for Americans into their country and spend money there . We're not exactly talking about 1st world countries here, you know? It's just my 2 cents on this.

It is hard to believe though that Brazil and Russia would shoot themselves in the foot like that but if that's the case, then this whole "removing the COB off the Us passports" can be a good subject of debate between lawyers and possibly taken to the Supreme Court. Bigger heads than ours should figure out what's in the best interest of US Citizens traveling abroad and HOW MUCH of American Citizens this country WANTS us to be and HOW exactly US is "encouraging" us to travel JUST as USCs once we are Naturalized. I'm just saying....it's an interesting hand core subject to debate.

Edited March 11, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

Let's be pragmatic.

You are a citizen if you hold citizenship, whether you live or work in that country. And most countries require you to use their passport to enter/exit their borders, regardless of how many other passports you hold.

And the US is by far the strictest country applying this policy, since not only requires its citizens to use a US passport to enter/exit the US, but also taxes its citizens worldwide, even if they don't have any ties to the US, aside from citizenship.

Well yeah, because one would have to be a complete fool to give up US Citizenship and US knows that, that's why they have the strictest rules(like requiring to pay taxes wherever you are etc) and other countries don't. Let's try to think for a second...what if all of the sudden a bunch of USCs start giving up all their Romanian citizenship....or better yet think of Mexico instead of Romania. Do you think the government of Mexico would still insist in having their "strict" rules concerning entering and existing their country by ANY Us Citizens? They would have to be out of their minds to completely not care about their country's economy.

That is why I'm saying that I wouldn't count on the fact that what US does will immediately be reciprocated by all other countries. The scale is NOT balanced between the interests of each country, therefore the rules won't be either, unless of course we're talking about more "difficult" governments like those of Cuba or even Saudi Arabia to give some examples. The others...hmmmm, I doubt it.

Edited March 11, 2010 by ziia

[NickD 202]

Not much of an argument, but Venezuela and Colombia have states just like the USA, so why if you were born in Venezuela or Colombia they just list the country and not the state of that country like the USA does? My passport states, Illinois, U.S.A. So if we were like these two other countries, shouldn't they just list us as being born in the USA?

But why even list that since each of these passports have either Venezuela, Colombia, or USA printed all over them? Even though I was born in Illinois, left that state as a kid and lived in Wisconsin practically all of my life, my mother is from Wisconsin, just happed to be born in Illinois, so why even mention it.

If a person has a Fiji passport can easily figure they are from Fiji, so what is important, where a person is born where they had no choice of, or what country they are from?

Just a question.

[sachinky 465]

No pun intended, but I have a feeling that people who come here with an attitude will have a very hard time integrating and living happy lives in US. Not because you can't but because you mock and reject what you don't understand. It is fine by me because at a certain scale, every immigrant who came here thought at the beginning that they're better then everyone else here and the rest is just a bunch of fools, but not so much to this extent. Eventually and hopefully you will understand how this country works, the laws, the rules and lifestyle, the rights and freedoms we enjoy and the blood that was shed by the founding fathers just for us to enjoy the treatment and respect all around this land. The American way, the civilized way is to write and sign petitions and letters you so easily make fun of and not to go around throwing stones or ripping people's hair off to prove a point as hey do in other countries. The voice of the people counts here because the power belongs to the people through voting. Representatives and Senators listen "to a piece of paper" more than they "listen" to a looter who's going to be sent in jail for vandalism. That is the American way and the sooner you understand it, the better and easier your life will be in this country.

Actually, ziia, I did spend four wonderful years in the U.S. I liked it very much and enjoyed my time and am thrilled to be moving back there permanently to be with my husband. As an eighteen year old, fresh off the boat, I integrated extremely well, even if I say so myself. I was never homesick, had plenty of friends, loved my college and the town I was in. Several professors even commented on my ability to be flexible, friendly, and fit in. I did lead a very happy and fulfilling life, thanks for wondering. I do understand a lot more about "how this country works, the laws, the rules and lifestyle, the rights and freedoms we enjoy and the blood that was shed by the founding fathers just for us to enjoy the treatment and respect all around this land" than you think I do. As a history and political science major, I had to extensively study U.S. history and politics and write detailed papers, so please don't assume that I'm just spewing nonsense. I didn't and don't consider myself worse off or better than Americans, naturalized or natural born. I was and still am extremely good friends with plenty of Americans and other international students. I am who I am and I am comfortable with that. And, no, I don't consider anyone to be a fool. I was just emphasizing my point. Which primarily is that you're all making a mountain out of a molehill. You can write as many petitions as you want, I doubt it's going to change anything -- it's not exactly a hot-button issue, and it's not a big deal as you're all making it out to be. However, I appreciate your concern and efforts in trying to make my life easier and better in the U.S.

Edited March 11, 2010 by sachinky

[ziia 9]

Actually, ziia, I did spend four wonderful years in the U.S. I liked it very much and enjoyed my time and am thrilled to be moving back there permanently to be with my husband. As an eighteen year old, fresh off the boat, I integrated extremely well, even if I say so myself. I was never homesick, had plenty of friends, loved my college and the town I was in. Several professors even commented on my ability to be flexible, friendly, and fit in. I did lead a very happy and fulfilling life, thanks for wondering. I do understand a lot more about "how this country works, the laws, the rules and lifestyle, the rights and freedoms we enjoy and the blood that was shed by the founding fathers just for us to enjoy the treatment and respect all around this land" than you think I do. As a history and political science major, I had to extensively study U.S. history and politics and write detailed papers, so please don't assume that I'm just spewing nonsense. I didn't and don't consider myself worse off or better than Americans, naturalized or natural born. I was and still am extremely good friends with plenty of Americans and other international students. I am who I am and I am comfortable with that. And, no, I don't consider anyone to be a fool. I was just emphasizing my point. Which primarily is that you're all making a mountain out of a molehill. It's really not as a big deal as you're all making it out to be. However, I appreciate your concern and efforts in trying to make my life easier and better in the U.S.

Then I apologize, I got a complete different impression because it seemed to me like you were mocking people because they write letters to the ACLU and their Representatives regarding their concerns. Also because of the way you dismiss our complaints, stating sensitivity when it's more of a social equality anti-discrimination issue and you should know that is you say you had an extensive study of US History and Politics.

The only "sensitive" person here is you because you fight this and I honestly don't understand why it affects you so much since the COB IS in the passport anyway. I don't see in what way it matters if COB is removed from it. Either way it's indifferent to you, you even said so, right? So, where is the logic behind your posts here (arguments) in order for me to dismiss them as non emotional but factual?

I am not looking at this from an emotional point of view as much as I am looking at it from a demonstrative & proof sustained point of view. I have examples to give and witnesses to call and as you can see there are a lot of people here who write on this thread and also experience problems with this matter.

Still, because of what you wrote now, I'm glad to hear it is not the case and that you feel at home here in US.

Edited March 11, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

This is how I look at it: when you are pro or against something and you debate that subject then you can not be accused of sensitivity.

On the other hand if the subject is indifferent to you and you decide to pick on the people who are taking an interest in the debate, then that is the definition of an "emotional"post/person.

I think that's enough personal talk from me. I'm going back to topic

Edited March 11, 2010 by ziia

[sachinky 465]

Darn it, we were having SUCH a nice conversation, why'd you have to and apologize now?

Meh, I AM rather indifferent to the subject--that is, whether the "place of birth" should be there or not. It doesn't matter to me or the large picture, in any which way. That said, I doubt it will be changed--it's there just like your name, age, sex and will continue to be there for the foreseeable future. Is there some great justification to it being there? Not that I can think of apart from "security" and I don't know how much sense that makes. Reciprocity might be another reason. Now is there any reason for it to be omitted either? Nah, especially if "had to wait for a few minutes/mean looks at the foreign POE" is the supposed reason.

Please, I'm not picking on you or anybody, for that matter. This is not the school yard and I'm not the bully. What DOES interest me is this whole angle that has crept in now. This whole bit where a bunch of you claim this is "discrimination" by the US government, where does the fault/responsibility lie, concepts such as rights/equality, citizenship -- both natural born (jus soli and jus sanguinis) and acquirement through naturalization. And such.

Edited March 11, 2010 by sachinky

[ziia 9]

Darn it, we were having SUCH a nice conversation, why'd you have to and apologize now?

Because the "nice conversation" brings out the American in me way too much for people to appreciate lol Sometimes I've been "accused" of being more American than some Americans...but we leave that aside, I don't want to go there

Is there some great justification to it being there? Not that I can think of apart from "security" and I don't know how much sense that makes. Reciprocity might be another reason.

Reciprocity might indeed be a valid reason if proved or sustained by some viable facts but I don't see how security is one of them since we're talking about USCs traveling abroad, not foreign tourists traveling to US. I can bet that if this issue is taken to court one day, the "security" reason behind it will fall flat in its face, pronto!

Please, I'm not picking on you or anybody, for that matter. This is not the school yard and I'm not the bully. What DOES interest me is this whole angle that has crept in now. This whole bit where a bunch of you claim this is "discrimination" by the US government, where does the fault/responsibility lie, concepts such as rights/equality, citizenship -- both natural born (jus soli and jus sanguinis) and acquirement through naturalization. And such.

I'm absolutely certain we'll hear more about this sometimes in the near future, possibly in newspapers. It's just a matter of people raising the issue. Sometimes it takes just one person to come back from abroad upset enough and influential enough to bring this matter on the front page and make it surface for real. For now, it's an inconvenience but having been in this country long enough, I know someone(a lawyer) courageous enough who wants to make a name for himself will take on this issue and win.

[v333k 59]

You know guys... we've been talking about this for days now, and I am reading the same exact information.... we should all just agree to disagree on this topic.

Just a suggestion

[ziia 9]

You know guys... we've been talking about this for days now, and I am reading the same exact information.... we should all just agree to disagree on this topic.

Just a suggestion

I agree I'm throwing in the towel on this one

Edited March 11, 2010 by ziia

[sachinky 465]

Fair enough. This thread is no longer fun.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Reciprocity might indeed be a valid reason if proved or sustained by some viable facts but I don't see how security is one of them since we're talking about USCs traveling abroad, not foreign tourists traveling to US. I can bet that if this issue is taken to court one day, the "security" reason behind it will fall flat in its face, pronto!

First of all, countries will ask for it to be reciprocal.

And second, what about security concerns of other countries? They would have the same concerns that the US Government have about foreign citizens (including US citizens) entering their country.

[v333k 59]

let's start another thread with a different topic related to citizenship...... any suggestions?

how about....... omitting date of birth??? Just kidding

Edited March 11, 2010 by v333k

[NickD 202]

let's start another thread with a different topic related to citizenship...... any suggestions?

how about....... omitting date of birth??? Just kidding

Ironic about meeting a person that really fits into your life from a different country, then being exposed to the entire immigration process. Not exactly like meeting the gal next door kind of thing. Papers that were intended for the trashcan became valuable sources of evidence of your relationship.

As a pilot and a guy that loves building things, became very interested in the EAA, living close to Oshkosh, the headquarters and building my own plane. But then I learned that every rivet, tiny screw, procedure had to be documented. That's no fun, screw that, can find better things to do. Little did I know by meeting that very special woman, also had to completely document my love life with her. But hey, can buy an FAA approved plane, can't find a woman like that. So what's with these government agencies and the kick they are on to document everything? And of all things, your love life?

I couldn't expect my wife be completely parted from her family, during the green card stage, a very strange phase, she had to maintain a foreign passport to visit them. With some very strange notion that she is categorized as a permanent resident of this country, but not, to travel she needs to maintain her foreign passport.

This wasn't exactly easy dealing with the Venezuelan consulate in Chicago, why in the hell do you want a Venezuelan passport when you are living here? Without thinking, I snapped back, we are staying here only long enough to make a lot of money, then we are returning back to Venezuela. With that, they issued her a five year passport. Even at that, they weren't very accommodating, kept us waiting in that tiny waiting room all day, even though we were the only ones there and finally gave her passport right before closing. We hit the 5:00 PM traffic in Chicago and didn't get home until 3:00 AM the next morning, exhausted. But said, honey, in a couple of years, we will get your USC and this will be all over.

Guess what!

We are never going back to that consulate again, this time, we will have to travel to Venezuela before her passport expires and fake it like she is a Venezuelan citizen. Already learned by being down there can slip a hundred dollar US bill under the table and get some pretty fast service, that is how they operate. By doing the same thing, greatly expedited her Colombian ID renewal procedure, otherwise we would have to stay down there for months.

To the best of my knowledge, and thanks to the Department of State and some strange security issues, still having to maintain these foreign passports has been the only negative issue after obtaining USC. Returning back to the USA last Saturday with about seven hours of flying time, but waiting in long lines for another eight hours, well, we all have to go through that regardless of whether you were born here or naturalized. No difference there.

With the new president Colombia has in cooperating with the USA, we don't quite carry that Colombian drug trafficking stigma we did a few years ago. So not as concerned about something sticking their hand up your butt. But he has to leave, can only hope for a good replacement. But would be helpful not to have Colombia pasted all over your US passport.

We hope to severe ties with Venezuela after we get my wife's son out of there. He like my daughter was dumb enough to turn 21 before I could petition for him, my step daughter was dumb enough to turn 18 so couldn't tailgate my wife with her USC. Where does the USCIS come up with these ages, isn't a family a family? We were advised to wait until my wife received her USC before petitioning for him due to the extreme delays in processing as a LPR. So got her USC at the earliest possible date even though it required a wheelbarrow full of extra documentation.

What's with documentation anyway?

[NickD 202]

Oh, this thread may be long and boring, really didn't resolve any issues. Does help to gain a better understanding in composing yet another worthless letter to your congressman. We do have friends with multiple passports and granted, there are key advantages in traveling, particularly in Europe.

But these are strictly optional!!!

Being forced to maintain foreign passports is an entirely different issue.