Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[ziia 9]

It's amazing how some people here give themselves authoritative voice on what citizenship is, how laws should be interpreted and foreign policy practiced...one could even get a feeling that there is a number of opinionated professors forcing their views for the sake of just being visible.

First off, if you are able to change your name during naturalization doesn't this impact other countries ability to identify you despite the fact that you have your place of birth in your passport? Obviously, US POE verification is usually just a click/call away, if necessary.

There are countries which do not make it compulsary to include country of birth information in their citizens' passports (e.g. Canada) and the world did not end the day when they made it optional. They leave it at the discretion of the passport holder to deal with foreign border crossings in case that information is demanded.

As stressed before, even if people who have problems on the border renounced their citizenship of their country of birth they would need to have a proof to show at the border...assuming they did, most likely they wouldn't meet with anything else but attitude from the border officers...we see it in the stories of those who have problems that these people are not professional and their egos easily influence their judgement.

Finally, in times of relative peace it is not a big deal but when there is a conflict between countries it usually influences the way their citizens are treated at the border not only between the countries in conflict but their wider defined alianses - case in point Israel and some countries in ME region. If you find yourself amidst a violent conflict information on your country of birth might be used against you. The more countries have stake in having you free the more valuable you become as a hostage....Hopefully, this is a scenario none of us will have to live to experience!

You just captured everything in a very concise, clear as crystal English and straight to the point way. Nicely said Mikey78 That's is exactly what we've been trying to summarize here for the last 10 pages of the thread.

From what I see here, the people who just don't get it are, in a curious and funny way at the same time, not American Citizens yet. None the less, they are very opinionated on the subject, which is fine, if valid points would be brought up against leaving the option to the people whether they want the COB in the Us passport. There are problems at the borders of other countries and whom ever traveled before and was unlucky enough knows what a hassle it can be. I read Nick's story and V333k's and there are many many more out there who deal with what they've dealt with. Is that fair for some USC's to be treated one way and other differently? I don't think so. I don't care how different YOU think we are. In my eyes and the US government's a citizen is a citizen is a citizen, all the same, same rights, same laws!

If anything, pople have the right to speak and they DO, whether some like it or not, HAVE RIGHTS in this country as US Citizens to ask, write, call, email, the US government(senators, reps, public agencies who deal with human rights and equality, etc).

Some may think it's lame to complain about this but until you go through what Nick's wife went through and V333k and many others, you still have the right to voice your opinion against this but not to dismiss ours.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

But let me ask this question. If my wife did renounce her Colombian citizenship, would our DOS remove born in Colombia from her US passport?

No, because your wife was born in Colombia and nothing is going to change that.

However, she will not be required to show a Colombian passport when entering Colombia.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Ok then... here is a story that is true, and I would like to know all the philosophers on this thread what they have to say.

I am from Israel, but I am not an Israeli, and I am not a Palestinian.

My parents were born in Jerusalem, I was born in Jerusalem, and none of us have Israeli citizenship. We are only residents. Is this fair?

Once the Israeli governemnt found I have a GC, they sent me a letter saying that I no longer am a resident in Israel! not my choice!

Now, the thing I agree with Nick is this, once I go visit my family and I present to them the US passport - they will see Israel as the place of birth. I bet you that I will spend most of my holiday answering questions rather than seeing my family. Why should I put up with that when if I had a choice, not include the place of birth, present the passport, get welcomed into the country, see my family and return to the US??????????

To everyone who says, well it is the law, and there are people who are complaining, bla bla bla.... they need to step back a little, and think that other people did not grow up and were not born with the same luxury and freedom they had in their previous countries, and visiting home countries as Italy, Canada, France, etc... that can care less about the darn passports you have should really stop telling the rest of us how we are being obnoxious and demanding and abusing the concept of being US citizens and carrying US passports.

That's why I understand Nick and Nick's wife's point of view, which is simple, and having an option (renouncing Colombian citizenship) that is not really an option is not necessarily fair. Even Morocco that doesn't even allow you to renounce their citizenship is absurd!

Some of us are trying to vent here and present share experiences about how even as US citizens, we will face profiling and we will not be looked at as citizens. That's all... we are not writing congress demanding changes tomorrow!!!

I guess it was my turn to vent....

Israel, like many countries does not confer citizenship on the base of ius soli, but on ius sanguinis. Your parents aren't Israeli so they don't care if you are born on Israeli soil (same policy that many western countries use).

They gave you permanent residence but once they found out that you got permanent residence somewhere else, they took it away. The US would do the same with your green card.

I am sure you are not the only Armenian in Israel (since a quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem is Armenian) and they would be familiar with that. Just say that you never were a citizen of Israel and never held an Israeli passport and I don't think you will have any problem.

Listen, I am not against not showing the place of birth in our passports. However, I don't think the US would ever allow that for many reason, security being the main one.

And definitely avoiding rants from immigration officers in other countries or circumventing other countries' laws are not good enough reasons.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I read Nick's story and V333k's and there are many many more out there who deal with what they've dealt with. Is that fair for some USC's to be treated one way and other differently? I don't think so. I don't care how different YOU think we are. In my eyes and the US government's a citizen is a citizen is a citizen, all the same, same rights, same laws!

If anything, pople have the right to speak and they DO, whether some like it or not, HAVE RIGHTS in this country as US Citizens to ask, write, call, email, the US government(senators, reps, public agencies who deal with human rights and equality, etc).

Some may think it's lame to complain about this but until you go through what Nick's wife went through and V333k and many others, you still have the right to voice your opinion against this but not to dismiss ours.

I disagree. I have no simphaty for NickD's story because Colombian officers were just following the laws of their country.

Try to do the opposite. Let's say you are born in the US and then emigrated aborad as a kid.

Try after 20 years to enter the US on the other passport. You will NOT be able to, unless you formally renounced to US citizenship. They will ask for a US passport because you are still a US citizen. It's exactly the same situation Nick's wife had in Colombia.

V333k is not a US citizen yet and did not experience anything bad or annoying yet. But I am sure he will be fine.

Really an awkward situation for us as my wife has a son in Venezuela that we have been trying earnestly to get out. She also owns property, but even if we sold it, can't bring the money out. On the subject material, she does have a Venezuelan passport that could get her into Colombia, but under the current conditions and stress between the two countries, preferred not to use it.

One more reason to keep her Colombian citizenship.

[v333k 59]

V333k is not a US citizen yet and did not experience anything bad or annoying yet. But I am sure he will be fine.

I lived there and I know how they look at me, what they think of me, and what they wish to do to me.... carrying a US passport to them is nothing... carrying any other type of passport to them means nothing.

I'll end my story here....

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I lived there and I know how they look at me, what they think of me, and what they wish to do to me.... carrying a US passport to them is nothing... carrying any other type of passport to them means nothing.

I'll end my story here....

I understand, but having gone through Israeli immigration a few times (and you definitely know better than me), do you think leaving your place of birth blank would help?

It will be the first thing they ask you.

[NickD 202]

I disagree. I have no simphaty for NickD's story because Colombian officers were just following the laws of their country.

Try to do the opposite. Let's say you are born in the US and then emigrated aborad as a kid.

Try after 20 years to enter the US on the other passport. You will NOT be able to, unless you formally renounced to US citizenship. They will ask for a US passport because you are still a US citizen. It's exactly the same situation Nick's wife had in Colombia.

Who's looking for sympathy, just telling the was it is. Disappointed is all, thought after my wife received her USC all of this foreign passport ####### would be over. But it's not, still love her and she loves me. Not exactly like going to your local post office every ten years, then all this notary ID and apostile ####### and expense. We have to deal with it. And so will some of you.

But I do feel I have the right to ask, why.

Ironically the distance between Bogota and Caracas is less than the distance from my home to St. Louis as we are dealing with very small countries here. Still would have married her if she was in Brazil, but there would have to have a visa to visit her while we were dating. Least I don't need that yet for Venezuela or Colombia. But maybe next year.

We are just common folk with family that want to see each other and share our lives together. Apparently our leaders have different ideas.

[ziia 9]

I disagree. I have no simphaty for NickD's story because Colombian officers were just following the laws of their country.

Try to do the opposite. Let's say you are born in the US and then emigrated aborad as a kid.

Try after 20 years to enter the US on the other passport. You will NOT be able to, unless you formally renounced to US citizenship. They will ask for a US passport because you are still a US citizen. It's exactly the same situation Nick's wife had in Colombia.

V333k is not a US citizen yet and did not experience anything bad or annoying yet. But I am sure he will be fine.

I look at it from this point of view...Let's forget for a second about the "other" country and their laws and let's focus solely on US and USCitizens for just a second:

I am a USC. I live in America. I live under the laws of America. I vote in America. I am protected by the law in America. The United Stes government allows me to carry a UNITED STATES PASSPORT because I am regarded as an UNITES STATES CITIZEN. If I have a complaint about something in the AMERICAN PASSPORT I ask the AMERICAN government to look into the issue because they issue the legal papers we carry to identify us. The American passport is proof in the eyes of the government that I am just as a citizen as any other citizen. US Government duty is to work for us the people NOT for other countries or against us. And we definitely don't vote to work for the government but WITH the government to ensure EACH US citizen is equally protected and equally abides the US Constitution and the US law. That said, I hope you do realize that that's why we VOTE in the first place: FOR RIGHTS AND PROTECTION.

I could care less how the other country sees me(their citizen or whatever) but if I am a US Citizen I demand I be treated like one and equally protected by the government that should serve me(ans us, the people). I swore alliance to America and once I got into that contract, the understanding is mutual, not one sided: I live under the rule of this country's government, I defend this country, I give my life for this country and this country in return has to protect me and my rights as an American Citizen, here on the land and overseas. period.

I don't care if Romania, Israel, Colombia sees as as citizens. As long as that Country of Birth is on my US passport, well AMERICA IS NOT working for me to offer me the same equal protection against overseas mistreatment at the border as it offers other citizens that were born here. I and others are not asking to have the COB completely removed but CONCEALED(the CHIP is already on the cover of the new passports by the way!) only for US POE to see and that's it! I, as an US citizen should be allowed to enter any country as long as I have a valid US Passport and a visa to that country if necessary for tourist purposes: whether that country is my birth country or not. If I don't want to enter as a citizen of that country but as a US Citizen, I should not be obliged to(US doesn't ease the process for me but "ENCOURAGES" me not to....what??!!. the laws in that country are the laws in that country. fine. But if I wouldn't have that COB written in big bright humongous letters under my picture in my US Passport, NO COUNTRY would ask me anything. they would see the US Passport they would SEE I am a US Citizen and up I go, just like everybody else. So, you bet it's US that has to FIX this for us, the US Citizens and NOT the other country who's citizens transparently we're NOT anymore because we don't live there anymore and we don't pay their taxes. That is simply ridiculous. And look at v333k...I totally agree with him. Do you have any idea what people have to deal with in 3rd world countries or whatever closed up judgmental corrupt countries? If you did, you'd see the matter differently, trust me.

Not only I write ACLU about this but also my Representative and Senator.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[NickD 202]

I look at it from this point of view...Let's forget for a second about the "other" country and their laws and let's focus solely on US and USCitizens for just a second:

I am a USC. I live in America. I live under the laws of America. I vote in America. I am protected by the law in America. The United Stes government allows me to carry a UNITED STATES PASSPORT because I am regarded as an UNITES STATES CITIZEN. If I have a complaint about something in the AMERICAN PASSPORT I ask the AMERICAN government to look into the issue because they issue the legal papers we carry to identify us. The American passport is proof in the eyes of the government that I am just as a citizen as any other citizen. US Government duty is to work for us the people NOT for other countries or against us. And we definitely don't vote to work for the government but WITH the government to ensure EACH US citizen is equally protected and equally abides the US Constitution and the US law. That said, I hope you do realize that that's why we VOTE in the first place: FOR RIGHTS AND PROTECTION.

I could care less how the other country sees me(their citizen or whatever) but if I am a US Citizen I demand I be treated like one and equally protected by the government that should serve me(ans us, the people). I swore alliance to America and once I got into that contract, the understanding is mutual, not one sided: I live under the rule of this country's government, I defend this country, I give my life for this country and this country in return has to protect me and my rights as an American Citizen, here on the land and overseas. period.

I don't care if Romania, Israel, Colombia sees as as citizens. As long as that Country of Birth is on my US passport, well AMERICA IS NOT working for me to offer me the same equal protection against overseas mistreatment at the border as it offers other citizens that were born here. I and others are not asking to have the COB completely removed but CONCEALED(the CHIP is already on the cover of the new passports by the way!) only for US POE to see and that's it! I, as an US citizen should be allowed to enter any country as long as I have a valid US Passport and a visa to that country if necessary for tourist purposes: whether that country is my birth country or not. If I don't want to enter as a citizen of that country but as a US Citizen, I should not be obliged to(US doesn't ease the process for me but "ENCOURAGES" me not to....what??!!. the laws in that country are the laws in that country. fine. But if I wouldn't have that COB written in big bright humongous letters under my picture in my US Passport, NO COUNTRY would ask me anything. they would see the US Passport they would SEE I am a US Citizen and up I go, just like everybody else. So, you bet it's US that has to FIX this for us, the US Citizens and NOT the other country who's citizens transparently we're NOT anymore because we don't live there anymore and we don't pay their taxes. That is simply ridiculous. And look at v333k...I totally agree with him. Do you have any idea what people have to deal with in 3rd world countries or whatever closed up judgmental corrupt countries? If you did, you'd see the matter differently, trust me.

Not only I write ACLU about this but also my Representative and Senator.

Like your post, Ziia, I did have the thought, what if Colombia would not let my wife leave without a Colombian passport as requested at the Bogota airport. Would she get protection from the US Embassy there? That was one question I was pleased we didn't have to answer, the guy at the port of departure let her go through when she had proof she was taking steps to get her Colombian passport.

Another question I have is those custom forms, the gal collecting those never looked at them, when she had a large handful, saw her toss them in the trash.

When my wife to be first came here with her then 13 year old daughter, with that Colombian drug stigma, both were stripped searched, I was ready to kill at that point. But since then, I have always traveled with her with no attempts made against her. This time I am talking about our US government at the US POE. Did you know that all Colombians are drug traffickers?

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I look at it from this point of view...Let's forget for a second about the "other" country and their laws and let's focus solely on US and USCitizens for just a second:

I am a USC. I live in America. I live under the laws of America. I vote in America. I am protected by the law in America. The United Stes government allows me to carry a UNITED STATES PASSPORT because I am regarded as an UNITES STATES CITIZEN. If I have a complaint about something in the AMERICAN PASSPORT I ask the AMERICAN government to look into the issue because they issue the legal papers we carry to identify us. The American passport is proof in the eyes of the government that I am just as a citizen as any other citizen. US Government duty is to work for us the people NOT for other countries or against us. And we definitely don't vote to work for the government but WITH the government to ensure EACH US citizen is equally protected and equally abides the US Constitution and the US law. That said, I hope you do realize that that's why we VOTE in the first place: FOR RIGHTS AND PROTECTION.

I could care less how the other country sees me(their citizen or whatever) but if I am a US Citizen I demand I be treated like one and equally protected by the government that should serve me(ans us, the people). I swore alliance to America and once I got into that contract, the understanding is mutual, not one sided: I live under the rule of this country's government, I defend this country, I give my life for this country and this country in return has to protect me and my rights as an American Citizen, here on the land and overseas. period.

I don't care if Romania, Israel, Colombia sees as as citizens. As long as that Country of Birth is on my US passport, well AMERICA IS NOT working for me to offer me the same equal protection against overseas mistreatment at the border as it offers other citizens that were born here. I and others are not asking to have the COB completely removed but CONCEALED(the CHIP is already on the cover of the new passports by the way!) only for US POE to see and that's it! I, as an US citizen should be allowed to enter any country as long as I have a valid US Passport and a visa to that country if necessary for tourist purposes: whether that country is my birth country or not. If I don't want to enter as a citizen of that country but as a US Citizen, I should not be obliged to(US doesn't ease the process for me but "ENCOURAGES" me not to....what??!!. the laws in that country are the laws in that country. fine. But if I wouldn't have that COB written in big bright humongous letters under my picture in my US Passport, NO COUNTRY would ask me anything. they would see the US Passport they would SEE I am a US Citizen and up I go, just like everybody else. So, you bet it's US that has to FIX this for us, the US Citizens and NOT the other country who's citizens transparently we're NOT anymore because we don't live there anymore and we don't pay their taxes. That is simply ridiculous. And look at v333k...I totally agree with him. Do you have any idea what people have to deal with in 3rd world countries or whatever closed up judgmental corrupt countries? If you did, you'd see the matter differently, trust me.

Not only I write ACLU about this but also my Representative and Senator.

Let's put it this way.

Other Governments do NOT care about US laws, and they shouldn't.

You are subject to the laws of the foreign country when you are on their soil. It's even written on our US passports.

And if the other country considers you a citizen, then you have to carry their passport when traveling there, according to their laws.

Most countries even give you the option to give up their citizenships, I really don't see the problems.

We want to ask the US government to hide the place of birth because we want to circumvent other countries' laws? It's not going to happen.

And even if the immigration officer throws some rant at you...who cares? It's going to end there. How is anybody else in the country going to know where you were born?

[v333k 59]

Let's put it this way.

Other Governments do NOT care about US laws, and they shouldn't.

You are subject to the laws of the foreign country when you are on their soil. It's even written on our US passports.

And if the other country considers you a citizen, then you have to carry their passport when traveling there, according to their laws.

Most countries even give you the option to give up their citizenships, I really don't see the problems.

We want to ask the US government to hide the place of birth because we want to circumvent other countries' laws? It's not going to happen.

And even if the immigration officer throws some rant at you...who cares? It's going to end there. How is anybody else in the country going to know where you were born?

I think you will never understand our point until you travel somewhere and you get an officer to stick a finger up your behind to make sure you are not smuggling something just because you US passport says you are born in Italy.....

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

By the way, the US has the SAME EXACT policy.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

I think you will never understand our point until you travel somewhere and you get an officer to stick a finger up your behind to make sure you are not smuggling something just because you US passport says you are born in Italy.....

But that is exactly why the country of birth is shown.

There are a few US citizens born in Italy who are member of the mafia, I'm sure.

There's many people with multiple citizenships that could take advantage of this.

If the US does this, then it becomes reciprocal. And you think the US would allow anybody in on a foreign passport without knowing the country they're from? I don't think so.

There's plenty of people born in countries of interest that carry european passports today and don't even need a visa to get into the US.

Besides, I always use my italian passport when traveling abroad (except Canada).

[littlecrazyangel 1]

I'm not a Us citizen (not yet) but I agree with you with the omitting of place of birth. I was born in Romania, I grow up there but I'm Hungarian. My family spokes Hungarian. I went to Hungarian schools, I grow up Hungarian.

I don't feel Romanian at all because I'm not. Those papers are not going to tell me how I feel. I also have Hungarian name.

I always fly JFK-Budapest because my hometown is closer to Budapest. There is discrimination at the Hungarian airport or Hungarian-Romanian border.

[v333k 59]

But that is exactly why the country of birth is shown.

There are a few US citizens born in Italy who are member of the mafia, I'm sure.

There's many people with multiple citizenships that could take advantage of this.

If the US does this, then it becomes reciprocal. And you think the US would allow anybody in on a foreign passport without knowing the country they're from? I don't think so.

There's plenty of people born in countries of interest that carry european passports today and don't even need a visa to get into the US.

Besides, I always use my italian passport when traveling abroad (except Canada).

What you mention here is absolutely correct at analyzing it.

Everyone, check this link out - especially you Nick to see if there is some answer for you

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/94675.pdf