Omitting Place of Birth on a US Passport....

[NickD 202]

Now I understand the confusion on some people who go to in the US Army and have to fight in the country they were born in. Hopefully the other country doesn't draft him(dual citizen) the second he steps foot on its soil to fight on their side because he had to use the other Passport so he's a citizen and he's obliged to oby the law lol. Then the two countries can claim him and split his time in two in the evening he fights one country and the in the morning, another.. lol. I'm just saying. I think we need a smile around here...we've been chatting a bunch on this thread

Our plane due to some mechanical problem left an hour later, two planes arrived in Bogota at the same time, each carrying over 300 passengers with over 600 people entering just four POE booths at the same time. My wife was denied entry due to that Colombia in her US passport, but she is very clever and talked her way into that country. That took over ten minutes while the others were flying through. That wasn't funny, and as I said, she was check on our return. Certainly not a way to treat a USC.

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Our plane due to some mechanical problem left an hour later, two planes arrived in Bogota at the same time, each carrying over 300 passengers with over 600 people entering just four POE booths at the same time. My wife was denied entry due to that Colombia in her US passport, but she is very clever and talked her way into that country. That took over ten minutes while the others were flying through. That wasn't funny, and as I said, she was check on our return. Certainly not a way to treat a USC.

Really? Why would a USC get a different treatment at a Colombian POE?

How is that different than being Canadian, or French, or Australian, or Russian, or Chinese, or whatever?

And again, she wasn't treated as a US citizen, but she was treated as a Colombian citizen breaking her country's laws.

[ziia 9]

Really? Why would a USC get a different treatment at a Colombian POE?

How is that different than being Canadian, or French, or Australian, or Russian, or Chinese, or whatever?

And again, she wasn't treated as a US citizen, but she was treated as a Colombian citizen breaking her country's laws.

Perhaps you are being a little harsh on Nick. His wife had some true troubles that I don't think any other citizen of another country would have because they would have been tourists. His wife was a tourist too(visiting as USC) but a citizen of Colombia in their eyes so she had to have another passport(the Colombian one, aside from the US one). Nick is right, his wife is a USC and it's a shame she can't opt to be treated as one(or as any other tourist from any other country).

Sorry to hear about the troubles Nick. it's good to know because my best friend who is also from Colombia is up for US Citizenship soon and I'm glad I can tell her what to expect. But i feel bad your wife had to tell us the story through her experience.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

Perhaps you are being a little harsh on Nick. His wife had some true troubles that I don't think any other citizen of another country would have because they would have been tourists. His wife was a tourist too(visiting as USC) but a citizen in Colombia's eyes so she had to have another passport(the Colombian one, aside from the US one). Nick is right, his wife is a USC and it's a shame she can't opt to be treated as one(or as any other tourist from any other country).

Sorry to hear about the troubles Nick. it's good to know because my best friend who is also from Colombia is up for US Citizenship soon and I'm glad I can tell her what to expect. But i feel bad your wife had to tell us the story through her experience.

I'm not being harsh, but a US passport shouldn't give us the right or feeling, or even worse, entitlement to invincibility.

When abroad we are subject to the laws of that country. And Colombia's laws are pretty simple: if you're a citizen of Colombia, you must enter and exit Colombia with a Colombian passport. And I'm no Colombian lawyer, it took me 10 seconds to find it through google on their embassy's website.

[v333k 59]

I'm not being harsh, but a US passport shouldn't give us the right or feeling, or even worse, entitlement to invincibility.

When abroad we are subject to the laws of that country. And Colombia's laws are pretty simple: if you're a citizen of Colombia, you must enter and exit Colombia with a Colombian passport. And I'm no Colombian lawyer, it took me 10 seconds to find it through google on their embassy's website.

Actually, I agree with Mr Italy on the "if you're a citizen of Colombia, you must enter and exit Colombia with a Colombian passport"

This is true for most countries - unless people can sneak in and out. That's one of the things that doesn't matter what citizenship we have, as long as we hold the citizenship of the visiting country, we must use their passport. I even hold a travel document to a certain country and that's the document that I have to use when I go there....

Nick - once again I am sorry to hear about your trouble...

[ziia 9]

I'm not being harsh, but a US passport shouldn't give us the right or feeling, or even worse, entitlement to invincibility.

When abroad we are subject to the laws of that country. And Colombia's laws are pretty simple: if you're a citizen of Colombia, you must enter and exit Colombia with a Colombian passport. And I'm no Colombian lawyer, it took me 10 seconds to find it through google on their embassy's website.

I understand. Logically it makes sense and also from the law side of it it makes sense. From an individual point of view though you'd have to admit it's a little screwed up that Colombia doesn't allow all the people to enter with any passport if they only intend to visit the country, then leave. I think it's kind of wrong how they claim "ownership" over a person(citizen) from the second they step on that land. They shouldn't uless that person commits a crime or starts working there but that's just my opinion.

Edited March 10, 2010 by ziia

[sachinky 465]

This was the very first point I made: most of you need to find a political theory book and open the chapter on citizenship.

Reiterating once again, Colombia could give a damn what your wife said or did during her oath of allegiance. In their eyes, she is still a Colombian citizen and has to follow those laws if she wants to visit her family. Simple as that. Clearly they do consider her as a citizen, otherwise they wouldn't offer her a passport. Countries do claim you -- some won't even let you give up your citizenship. The U.S. government is not making unreasonable demands on your wife. She, just like every other USC, must have their place of birth mentioned on the passport.

U.S. citizenship can only be lost through formal renouncement in front of a consular officer. Or if you bear arms against the U.S. Or if it is found that the US citizenship was acquired by means of fraud. Plenty of my friends hold American passports (born in U.S.) and Spanish/Italian passport (parents from Italy/Spain) so yes, that is absolutely no problem at all.

I never meant to say that naturalized citizens were inferior in any way to natural born citizens. I feel like some of you took my remarks to mean as such. But they ARE different. The same rules don't apply. It's not about being better or worse or fair or unfair. It's just the way it is. The sooner you wrap your head around and stop insisting that unless it's the same and equal, it MUST be discrimination, the better it is.

It amuses me that some of you think that ALL US passports will be overhauled and inserted with expensive chips just so you/your spouses are not inconvenienced for a few minutes or don't have to put up with pissy remarks from immigration officials of another country.

Of course, now that you're all USCs, I guess it is your God-given right to rage and rant against the U.S. government.

Edited March 10, 2010 by sachinky

[NickD 202]

This was the very first point I made: most of you need to find a political theory book and open the chapter on citizenship.

Reiterating once again, Colombia could give a damn what your wife said or did during her oath of allegiance. In their eyes, she is still a Colombian citizen and has to follow those laws if she wants to visit her family. Simple as that. Clearly they do consider her as a citizen, otherwise they wouldn't offer her a passport. Countries do claim you -- some won't even let you give up your citizenship. The U.S. government is not making unreasonable demands on your wife. She, just like every other USC, must have their place of birth mentioned on the passport.

U.S. citizenship can only be lost through formal renouncement in front of a consular officer. Or if you bear arms against the U.S. Or if it is found that the US citizenship was acquired by means of fraud. Plenty of my friends hold American passports (born in U.S.) and Spanish/Italian passport (parents from Italy/Spain) so yes, that is absolutely no problem at all.

I never meant to say that naturalized citizens were inferior in any way to natural born citizens. I feel like some of you took my remarks to mean as such. But they ARE different. The same rules don't apply. It's not about being better or worse or fair or unfair. It's just the way it is. The sooner you wrap your head around and stop insisting that unless it's the same and equal, it MUST be discrimination, the better it is.

It amuses me that some of you think that ALL US passports will be overhauled and inserted with expensive chips just so you/your spouses are not inconvenienced for a few minutes or don't have to put up with pissy remarks from immigration officials of another country.

Of course, now that you're all USCs, I guess it is your God-given right to rage and rant against the U.S. government.

To reiterate this same post again!

From: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html#

"Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad"

While it took my wife over ten minutes to get through with promises she will start the procedure, it took me all but 20 seconds. When asked why I was visiting Colombian, just said to see your beautiful country and to spend some money, stamped my passport and said welcome to Colombia. Again the only difference between my wife's passport and my passport is the place of birth, mine says born in Illinois, her says born in Colombia.

We first went to their passport office, no good, they wanted the same identical stamped copy with had of her ID registration with all that notary stuff on it in Spanish. So we had to chase around to several different offices to get that and told it would take six to 12 months before she received that. We know before we can return, we will have to make a trip to no-parking downtown Chicago to the Colombian consulate with her new ID to obtain her passport. They also told us to bring five 5 by 4.5 cm photos of her so we searched for a photo shop that specializes in ID photos and told them it was for the Colombian ID. The girl told my wife at the ID place, because of the color of her hair, she wanted a light blue background, but the photo shop doesn't do that. Took more talking to convince her that is all that photo shop would take.

If that wasn't bad enough, we just had to visit Bogota when the city bus drivers went on strike supported by many taxi cab companies, but we found free lancers. All the highways were jammed with zero EPA trucks and old cars that weren't set up for the high altitude of Bogota blasting out black hydrocarbons I am very sensitive too. My sinuses are still all swollen up four days later, but thank God, I have fresh Wisconsin air to breathe.

But let me ask this question. If my wife did renounce her Colombian citizenship, would our DOS remove born in Colombia from her US passport?

I don't think so, she would never be able to visit her family. Let's be realistic about this.

[NickD 202]

What was really funny to me, my wife made me take over two dozen photos of her for her US passport, fixing her hair perfectly in different ways, wearing different top clothes. When I looked at her photo ID photos, her hair was a mess as well as her dress as was her expression. She simply replied, I don't care, it just something I have to do.

[MoroccanInTexas 24]

or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);

4. accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html

So are you saying Rahm Emmanuel is no longer a US citizen since he served in the Israeli Army ? An he is still an Israeli citizen ?

I think the debate changed from adjusting the place of birth in the US passport, to a whole new area. Citizenship, allegiance, claim on former citizens are all very complicated issues that are still being debated by experts.

In my case, once Moroccan always Moroccan, I can not renounce it. The states department says "The government of Morocco considers all persons born to Moroccan fathers or mothers to be Moroccan citizens. In addition to being subject to all American laws, U.S. citizens who also possess the nationality of Morocco may be subject to other laws that impose special obligations on citizens of Morocco. "

[NickD 202]

So are you saying Rahm Emmanuel is no longer a US citizen since he served in the Israeli Army ? An he is still an Israeli citizen ?

I think the debate changed from adjusting the place of birth in the US passport, to a whole new area. Citizenship, allegiance, claim on former citizens are all very complicated issues that are still being debated by experts.

In my case, once Moroccan always Moroccan, I can not renounce it. The states department says "The government of Morocco considers all persons born to Moroccan fathers or mothers to be Moroccan citizens. In addition to being subject to all American laws, U.S. citizens who also possess the nationality of Morocco may be subject to other laws that impose special obligations on citizens of Morocco. "

There are simple solutions to all problems, first one is too late for me, marry an immigrant orphan. Second, there is no law you have to have a US passport, just stay home, but that certainly would be unfair to my wife.

But let me ask this question. If my wife did renounce her Colombian citizenship, would our DOS remove born in Colombia from her US passport?

[MoroccanInTexas 24]

There are simple solutions to all problems, first one is too late for me, marry an immigrant orphan. Second, there is no law you have to have a US passport, just stay home, but that certainly would be unfair to my wife.

But let me ask this question. If my wife did renounce her Colombian citizenship, would our DOS remove born in Colombia from her US passport?

The simple answer, if things are the way there are now, a big NO. And even if your wife renounced, or tried to renounce her Colombian citizenship, there is no guaranty that she wont come across some brick head officer at the POE in Columbia. If I were her, I wont go down that road of renouncing the citizenship of Columbia, since she still has ties and family there. When dealing with bureaucracy in a third world country, it is often difficult to know the outcome.

Good luck

[mikey78 6]

It's amazing how some people here give themselves authoritative voice on what citizenship is, how laws should be interpreted and foreign policy practiced...one could even get a feeling that there is a number of opinionated professors forcing their views for the sake of just being visible.

First off, if you are able to change your name during naturalization doesn't this impact other countries ability to identify you despite the fact that you have your place of birth in your passport? Obviously, US POE verification is usually just a click/call away, if necessary.

There are countries which do not make it compulsary to include country of birth information in their citizens' passports (e.g. Canada) and the world did not end the day when they made it optional. They leave it at the discretion of the passport holder to deal with foreign border crossings in case that information is demanded.

As stressed before, even if people who have problems on the border renounced their citizenship of their country of birth they would need to have a proof to show at the border...assuming they did, most likely they wouldn't meet with anything else but attitude from the border officers...we see it in the stories of those who have problems that these people are not professional and their egos easily influence their judgement.

Finally, in times of relative peace it is not a big deal but when there is a conflict between countries it usually influences the way their citizens are treated at the border not only between the countries in conflict but their wider defined alianses - case in point Israel and some countries in ME region. If you find yourself amidst a violent conflict information on your country of birth might be used against you. The more countries have stake in having you free the more valuable you become as a hostage....Hopefully, this is a scenario none of us will have to live to experience!

Edited March 10, 2010 by mikey78

[v333k 59]

Ok then... here is a story that is true, and I would like to know all the philosophers on this thread what they have to say.

I am from Israel, but I am not an Israeli, and I am not a Palestinian.

My parents were born in Jerusalem, I was born in Jerusalem, and none of us have Israeli citizenship. We are only residents. Is this fair?

Once the Israeli governemnt found I have a GC, they sent me a letter saying that I no longer am a resident in Israel! not my choice!

Now, the thing I agree with Nick is this, once I go visit my family and I present to them the US passport - they will see Israel as the place of birth. I bet you that I will spend most of my holiday answering questions rather than seeing my family. Why should I put up with that when if I had a choice, not include the place of birth, present the passport, get welcomed into the country, see my family and return to the US??????????

To everyone who says, well it is the law, and there are people who are complaining, bla bla bla.... they need to step back a little, and think that other people did not grow up and were not born with the same luxury and freedom they had in their previous countries, and visiting home countries as Italy, Canada, France, etc... that can care less about the darn passports you have should really stop telling the rest of us how we are being obnoxious and demanding and abusing the concept of being US citizens and carrying US passports.

That's why I understand Nick and Nick's wife's point of view, which is simple, and having an option (renouncing Colombian citizenship) that is not really an option is not necessarily fair. Even Morocco that doesn't even allow you to renounce their citizenship is absurd!

Some of us are trying to vent here and present share experiences about how even as US citizens, we will face profiling and we will not be looked at as citizens. That's all... we are not writing congress demanding changes tomorrow!!!

I guess it was my turn to vent....

[NickD 202]

Bringing up war is yet another concern for us, according this article http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/07-6 and discussions on this subject with my wife's family members, the US is talking about building seven military bases in Colombia. Our or our leaders reasoning is to control drug traffic in Colombia and restore human rights. Chavez on the other hand interprets this as a US move to start a war with Venezuela, and even has driven his Russian made tanks to the Colombian border.

Really an awkward situation for us as my wife has a son in Venezuela that we have been trying earnestly to get out. She also owns property, but even if we sold it, can't bring the money out. On the subject material, she does have a Venezuelan passport that could get her into Colombia, but under the current conditions and stress between the two countries, preferred not to use it.