CSC Approvals & IMBRA RFE

[hockeygal 0]

So, in theory because a place like Match.com, or Yahoo Personals charges a monthly fee to get in touch with people, they technically at this point would be considered a Marriage Broker.

Not necessarily. Match and Yahoo seem to fall under the exception that has been posted several times on this board, as the point of those dating sites is not specifically to set up meetings between USCs and one particular group of foreigners.

Personally, I think if you are looking for a friend or pen pal from a specific country and it leads to somethign else, that shouldn't be a marriage broker either, but that is probably one of the ones that you need to explain a bit more.

of course, these are just my opinions on the matter. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't work for USCIS, so what do I know? I was just adding my viewpoint ....

Edited July 27, 2006 by hockeygal

[Erik 0]

So, in theory because a place like Match.com, or Yahoo Personals charges a monthly fee to get in touch with people, they technically at this point would be considered a Marriage Broker.

Not necessarily. Match and Yahoo seem to fall under the exception that has been posted several times on this board, as the point of those dating sites is not specifically to set up meetings between USCs and one particular group of foreigners.

Personally, I think if you are looking for a friend or pen pal from a specific country and it leads to somethign else, that shouldn't be a marriage broker either, but that is probably one of the ones that you need to explain a bit more.

of course, these are just my opinions on the matter. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't work for USCIS, so what do I know? I was just adding my viewpoint ....

I completely agree that there was talk about Yahoo and Match being exceptions to the rules, however I think that is the part that confuses most people, and is where the USCIS contradicts itself the most. My guess, is that there was some behind the scenes deals being made for those 2 very large companies to be excluded. I'm willing to bet money exchanged hands somewhere.

The contradictory part being even in the IMBRA RFE, they classified a Marriage Broker as the following:

"The term "international marriage broker" means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as lawful permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals."

Now, that paragraph from the IMBRA RFE would and should theoretically include the likes of Yahoo, and Match. I mean, they state "Matchmaking Services", how could a company with a name like "Match" not be included in this?

This is where much of the confusion lies, and is why I went ahead and said yes with an explanation of how the website opperates. Just didn't want ANOTHER stupid RFE

Edited July 27, 2006 by Erik

[Dean iWait 0]

(4) I

NTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) I

N GENERAL

.—The term ‘‘international marriage

broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, indi-

vidual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized

under any law of the United States, that charges fees

for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services,

or social referrals between United States citizens or

nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States

as permanent residents and foreign national clients by

providing personal contact information or otherwise facili-

tating communication between individuals.

(B) E

XCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a

cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the

laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

Pretty straight forward really. The last exception is how match and yahoo get a pass.

[Erik 0]

(4) I

NTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) I

N GENERAL

.—The term ‘‘international marriage

broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, indi-

vidual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized

under any law of the United States, that charges fees

for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services,

or social referrals between United States citizens or

nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States

as permanent residents and foreign national clients by

providing personal contact information or otherwise facili-

tating communication between individuals.

(B) E

XCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a

cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the

laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

Pretty straight forward really. The last exception is how match and yahoo get a pass.

Yeah spot on. What I was trying to say, was I believe those exceptions were written in the law specifically with those large companies in mind. Otherwise they would of had many, many more lawsuits against them, from companies large enough to hire whole teams of high powered attorneys to appeal the law.

Also, with the IMBRA RFE that only adds to the confusion, as no where does it state there are exceptions to what they list (that I can remember, I should probably check before I post this, but I'm still working on my 1st cup of coffee ). So, unless someone goes out and reads the law (which most probably do not) they will take the wording as is, which in "theory" would include those websites, if you know what I mean.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Erik

[no name 1]

Thanks for the responses. I thought a marriage broker would be one of those "mail order brides" agencies.

Yeah, I would believe those would be included as Marriage Brokers as well, although all many of those do is sell the person's address, phone number, email etc. They are not actually involved in the relationship. Were as Sowens mentioned some of these places actually take part in people meeting. They set up dates, etc. etc. To me, those are the "real" Marriage Brokers.

So you see why it's a bit confusing

But if you email these sites & ask, they say NO, they are not. It's a dating site , not a marriage site, where you PAY to get set up for marriage. This has been discussed to death before & that was the general consensus.

[Dean iWait 0]

(4) I

NTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) I

N GENERAL

.—The term ‘‘international marriage

broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, indi-

vidual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized

under any law of the United States, that charges fees

for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services,

or social referrals between United States citizens or

nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States

as permanent residents and foreign national clients by

providing personal contact information or otherwise facili-

tating communication between individuals.

(B) E

XCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a

cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the

laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

Pretty straight forward really. The last exception is how match and yahoo get a pass.

Yeah spot on. What I was trying to say, was I believe those exceptions were written in the law specifically with those large companies in mind. Otherwise they would of had many, many more lawsuits against them, from companies large enough to hire whole teams of high powered attorneys to appeal the law.

Also, with the IMBRA RFE that only adds to the confusion, as no where does it state there are exceptions to what they list (that I can remember, I should probably check before I post this, but I'm still working on my 1st cup of coffee ). So, unless someone goes out and reads the law (which most probably do not) they will take the wording as is, which in "theory" would include those websites, if you know what I mean.

Oh you can bet on it! That's the way it works, if you're a giant corporation with lots of lobbyists you can make sure certain laws don't affect your business. I can assure you if that last exception was not written in this law would have been shot down.

[Erik 0]

Thanks for the responses. I thought a marriage broker would be one of those "mail order brides" agencies.

Yeah, I would believe those would be included as Marriage Brokers as well, although all many of those do is sell the person's address, phone number, email etc. They are not actually involved in the relationship. Were as Sowens mentioned some of these places actually take part in people meeting. They set up dates, etc. etc. To me, those are the "real" Marriage Brokers.

So you see why it's a bit confusing

But if you email these sites & ask, they say NO, they are not. It's a dating site , not a marriage site, where you PAY to get set up for marriage. This has been discussed to death before & that was the general consensus.

Agree Devilette, and I'm not tryin to beat a dead horse, only was trying to explain to Marie as to why it is a bit confusing. Even if they email the website, and the website responds with what you stated, where they are not a marriage website, they are a "dating" website, the description of Marriage Brokers in the RFE also defines "dating" businesses as well.

So, in a nut shell I'm saying they IMBRA RFE blows donkey balls, but we all know that already

Edited July 27, 2006 by Erik

[no name 1]

Agree Devilette, and I'm not tryin to beat a dead horse, only was trying to explain to Marie as to why it is a bit confusing. Even if they email the website, and the website responds with what you stated, where they are not a marriage website, they are a "dating" website, the description of Marriage Brokers in the RFE also defines "dating" businesses as well.

So, in a nut shell I'm saying they IMBRA RFE blows donkey balls, but we all know that already

yes but this is not vague:

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

I met on a UK dating site, while living in that country. It's not specifically a marriage or int'l dating site.

Edited July 27, 2006 by devilette

[Erik 0]

Agree Devilette, and I'm not tryin to beat a dead horse, only was trying to explain to Marie as to why it is a bit confusing. Even if they email the website, and the website responds with what you stated, where they are not a marriage website, they are a "dating" website, the description of Marriage Brokers in the RFE also defines "dating" businesses as well.

So, in a nut shell I'm saying they IMBRA RFE blows donkey balls, but we all know that already

yes but this is not vague:

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

I met on a UK dating site, while living in that country. It's not specifically a marriage or int'l dating site.

Yup, again agreed completely , but those exceptions are not included in the IMBRA RFE, so unless one would read the law, they would not even know exceptions exsisted going on the IMBRA RFE alone.

Thats kinda why I was saying it can be confusing, and for someone just getting into the process like Marie, even more so.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Erik

[no name 1]

Agree Devilette, and I'm not tryin to beat a dead horse, only was trying to explain to Marie as to why it is a bit confusing. Even if they email the website, and the website responds with what you stated, where they are not a marriage website, they are a "dating" website, the description of Marriage Brokers in the RFE also defines "dating" businesses as well.

So, in a nut shell I'm saying they IMBRA RFE blows donkey balls, but we all know that already

yes but this is not vague:

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its

principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United

States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to

all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

I met on a UK dating site, while living in that country. It's not specifically a marriage or int'l dating site.

Yup, again agreed completely , but those exceptions are not included in the IMBRA RFE, so unless one would read the law, they would not even know exceptions exsisted going on the IMBRA RFE alone.

Thats kinda why I was saying it can be confusing, and for someone just getting into the process like Marie, even more so.

[Dean iWait 0]

Ignorance of the law is no defense. All I can say is the people who just decide since the site they met on doesn't "arrange marriages" or well the site told me they are not one, so therefore they aren't IMB's are not exersizing good judgement in my opinion. Read the freakin law! We met on a site where no personal information is ever provided, are marriage sure the hell was not arranged. But according to an immigration attorney we met through an IMB. And yes we have had this subject over and over and over. And we will continue to as peeps who haven't filed come on ask the question. So I guess we should all get used to it or simply ignore future posts on the subject.

I really just wanted to know the answer to Erik's original post. Anybody???

Edited July 27, 2006 by Dean iWait

[Erik 0]

Ignorance of the law is no defense. All I can say is the people who just decide since the site they met on doesn't "arrange marriages" or well the site told me they are not one, so therefore they aren't IMB's are not exersizing good judgement in my opinion. Read the freakin law! We met on a site where no personal information is ever provided, are marriage sure the hell was not arranged. But according to an immigration attorney we met through an IMB. And yes we have had this subject over and over and over. And we will continue to as peeps who haven't filed come on ask the question. So I guess we should all get used to it simply ignore future posts on the subject.

I really just wanted to know the answer to Erik's original post. Anybody???

Hey don't ignore me!!

[Marc and Olga 0]

Yes, Olga and I met through an IMB pre-IMBRA, which was included in the telling of our personal meeting!

I answered yes and included the name, city and country of said IMB.

We were approved on the 24th!

[Dean iWait 0]

Yes, Olga and I met through an IMB pre-IMBRA, which was included in the telling of our personal meeting!

I answered yes and included the name, city and country of said IMB.

We were approved on the 24th!

YAY!

[stevea 0]

I answered "No" and still have not been approved! I am patiently waiting and waiting and waiting...God, I'm tired of patiently waiting!