pre aos question

[slim 1,533]

I was all for the licencing of parents too, but Good point, less government interference !

I probably should've been more clear - "while receiving govt. handouts, parents will be licensed to have children." If you don't like the licensing process, fine, don't have kids or don't take handouts.

I doubt it would happen to me as I do not have a Russian accent as both women did and I doubt my citizenship would comeinto question, which may be profiling

Or which may be illegal. I don't know VT's laws, but I do know in most places a simple traffic stop (what were they stopped for?) is usually not enough cause for checking the status of their immigration/visas/etc. Also, if the driver had valid VT ID, why were they further ID'd anyway?

What probably happened is the cop checked the driver, heard the accent, said "where is your greencard?" When it couldn't be produced he asked the passenger for ID. When she couldn't produce ANY form of ID (school ID w/picture is not valid ID) either, they took it to the next level.

If one or both of those women would've had valid passports on them, they would've been fine. Once again, this was not an incident that happened because one of the women didn't file for AOS, this is an instance of neither woman having their passports or any other visa-related ID on their person and the one woman not being able to be identified at all.

maybe a Russian accent in VT is something out of an ordinary to hear,

Any cop worth their weight is going to ascertain the status of someone who could be a foreign citizen. They may or may not have the authority to do so on a simple traffic stop, but they will probably do it anyway. If a passenger in a car CANNOT be identified, especially after the driver admits to being a foreigner without proof of status, of course the situation is going to escalate.

However, once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with filing for AOS or not and everything to do with two women who decided not to carry proper ID.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I imagine if some VT police officers had relocated to, let's say Philly... they'd have a heart attack from all the people with foreign accents

Also, just because I have an accent, I don't feel like carrying a passport. I am not in a foreign country.

So basically, point taken - don't go to Canada through VT or they will stop and detain you for having a russian accent (oh god I hope you don't twist this too - it's a joke, here in bold - joke )

All in all, I know the law, I understand that as an immigrant, you have to carry proof with you (I carried my GC for 5 years), end of story.

Another point is - maybe a Russian accent in VT is something out of an ordinary to hear, so the cops just freak out OMG ZE RUSSKIS ARE COMING, RED DAWN, RED DAWN.

LOL Well let me put you at ease. Russian is the third most spoken language in Vermont, albeit a distant 3rd behind English and French. (Serbo-Croat is number 4!!! And actually number 3 in Burlington) Spanish is spoken by, maybe, 3 people in the state. I know one of them and he tells me there are two more but it is yet to be seen. Middlebury College has, perhaps, the premier Russian language program in the country (all our spies are/were trained there ) and The University of Vermont is anything but shabby in its Russian language department. Our local libraries carry Russian language newspapers and magazines and books. The Lake Champlain Ferry fleet is staffed largely by Russian and Ukrainian crew. (and a few Moldovans) Many of the ski resorts use J1 holders for seasonal help. Most popular countries...Russia and Ukraine. When we go skiing Alla can always speak to the staff in her native Russian. Alla is an interpreter for a local hospital and gets calls 3-4 days per week to interpret for Russian speaking patients...this in a city of less than 50,000 population, and she isn't the only Russian interpreter, though she IS good and she IS attractive and many of her clients are Russian men. Go figure. She also interprets for the CBP on call as needed., the County Sherrif in two counties, local police departments.

However we also have a large amount of illegal immigration from Canada in this area...none of which are Canadians but they are other nationalities which immigrated to Canada (Canada has more lax policies) and then jump the border into the USA or arrive in boats on Lake Champlain which straddles the border and there is no border control on the lake. We see more CBP vehicles than state police and nearly the ONLY aircraft (outside of float planes in the summer) are CBP helicopters.

In general though the cops couldn't care less and have refused on several occasions to even look at Alla's green card (in her driver training period she did get stopped a few times but never got a ticket ) So Clueless's experience makes perfect sense, normally a Vermont cop will not care if you are legal or not. Get too close to the border, have foreign accents, don't have your documents showing legal presence and (just possible) be attractive women and it can be a different story.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I probably should've been more clear - "while receiving govt. handouts, parents will be licensed to have children." If you don't like the licensing process, fine, don't have kids or don't take handouts.

Or which may be illegal. I don't know VT's laws, but I do know in most places a simple traffic stop (what were they stopped for?) is usually not enough cause for checking the status of their immigration/visas/etc. Also, if the driver had valid VT ID, why were they further ID'd anyway?

What probably happened is the cop checked the driver, heard the accent, said "where is your greencard?" When it couldn't be produced he asked the passenger for ID. When she couldn't produce ANY form of ID (school ID w/picture is not valid ID) either, they took it to the next level.

If one or both of those women would've had valid passports on them, they would've been fine. Once again, this was not an incident that happened because one of the women didn't file for AOS, this is an instance of neither woman having their passports or any other visa-related ID on their person and the one woman not being able to be identified at all.

Any cop worth their weight is going to ascertain the status of someone who could be a foreign citizen. They may or may not have the authority to do so on a simple traffic stop, but they will probably do it anyway. If a passenger in a car CANNOT be identified, especially after the driver admits to being a foreigner without proof of status, of course the situation is going to escalate.

However, once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with filing for AOS or not and everything to do with two women who decided not to carry proper ID.

But Slim, it DOES have to do with filing AOS. If you do not file AOS how will you have proper ID to show your legal status? granted, the one needed only her passport with J1 visa and the other needed her green card. It isn't like they were deported or even put in the slammer, they just had to sit in the lobby at the police station for a while. No one treated them like criminals but they were checked out by people able to do that better than the local police.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

For a K1 entrant without AOS, passport + I-94 is the proper documentation.

What I want to know is who gave the right to the Police to detain anybody they suspect is a foreigner who does not show proper immigration documents. Once a person shows a state ID, s/he should be free to go, unless s/he is accused of a crime. Like I said before, how is any police going to know that I am a USC when I do not carry my US passport with me anytime? If they ever try to arrest me, they'd better be prepared for the consequences, because I am prepared to raise hell, if necessary.

I found this in Internet, about your rights:

"If an immigration officer stops you on the street and does not have a warrant, he/she may not arrest you unless he/she has evidence that you are a non-citizen. Do not share what your status is. If the officer keeps trying to ask you questions, you can ask, “Am I free to leave?” If the officer says yes, then walk away. If no, then continue to answer with “I want to speak to a lawyer.”"

Or better this:

What to Do if the Police, Immigration or Other Authorities Stop You

You have the right to be free from unlawful searches and seizures

You have rights as a pedestrian.

What to do if you are approached by the police or immigration agents on the street:

1. You have the constitutional right to remain silent. You have the right to remain silent even if you are asked questions about your immigration status. They cannot arrest you without "probable cause" (a good reason to believe you have committed an offense). Always remember that you have the constitutional right to remain silent, regardless of your immigration status.

2. It's not a crime to refuse to answer questions, but refusing to answer might make the police suspicious about you. What to do if you are asked to identify yourself:

If you have valid identification that does not reveal your immigration status, then show it.

[slim 1,533]

But Slim, it DOES have to do with filing AOS. If you do not file AOS how will you have proper ID to show your legal status?

Passport and marriage cert. is proper ID.

For a K1 entrant without AOS, passport + I-94 is the proper documentation.

+ marriage cert. If they don't have a marriage cert. with them, all they have is an expired I-94 and that proves they are out of status. Showing a marriage cert. along with an expired I-94 proves they are legal.

What I want to know is who gave the right to the Police to detain anybody

Police have the right to ID anyone at any time. Google "terry stop" for more on the grey area that is detaining and IDing, searching, etc. However, in Gary's example of the two women, they complied with the officer's requests to be detained. Had they stood up for their rights a little more (and let's not forget LPRs and those on visas don't have ALL the same rights as a USC) and not agreed to follow the officers back to the station, the outcome may have been a little different.

Either way, it had nothing to do with filing for AOS.

The OP's wife, who hasn't filed for AOS yet, should have no problems during a traffic stop, a terry stop, or any other interactions with the police provided she's carrying the right form of ID on her person at the time of stop. In Gary's story, that was the problem - the women didn't have proper ID - not that they were out of status.

[slim 1,533]

Nope. Even as a Terry stop, Police have to have "reasonable suspicion." And even if a cop does stop you and ask for ID, an American citizen is under no obligation to provide identification, even if he's carrying ID.

"Suspicious person" seems to be a pretty good cause for terry stop. Loitering, disturbing the peace, etc., have all been valid reasons as well.

As for not having an obligation to provide ID, see above. As soon as you assert your right to not produce ID, that's when it goes from a simple "terry stop" to one of the crimes listed.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

"Suspicious person" seems to be a pretty good cause for terry stop. Loitering, disturbing the peace, etc., have all been valid reasons as well.

As for not having an obligation to provide ID, see above. As soon as you assert your right to not produce ID, that's when it goes from a simple "terry stop" to one of the crimes listed.

But the question in regards to AOS is what's the proper ID?

If a foreign national is able to acquire a State ID (driver's license or other), that should be enough to satisfy the ID requirements. No need for Passport, I-94, or even Marriage Certificate. Therefore, no need for AOS. A police officer cannot force an individual to shoe immigration status papers if the "proper" ID was provided.

Even on a Terry Stop, that is what it boils down to. Passport and other important documents can be kept safely at home. Those were checked by the state when the state ID was procured.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I don't know the finer points of the law, so I don't know if "suspicious person" would be acceptable to a judge, but I kinda don't think it would fly. I won't argue that police don't abuse their power, because they do. But in the legal sense, there must be "probable suspicion" to detain and search. And in cases where there's some real crime going down, cops know to be careful. If they perform a Terry stop on a person where they can't demonstrate probable suspicion, then anything they find on that individual might be thrown out in trial.

Back in the day, when I was about 18, I was just walking along the street with friends, and Denver's finest pulled up and started checking our ID's. Of course all of us complied immediately, except one of our friends, who was 3-4 years older and had been arrested a couple times before on possession charges. He refused to provide ID, the cops got pretty irate with him and we were sure he was going to jail, but eventually they realized they weren't going to intimidate him into giving it up so they just let us go. Turned out just to be some bored assh*le cops on a fishing expedition, but that's when I figured out that the po-po just hope that you don't understand your rights. Understand your rights, even in the face of a policeman screaming in your face, and you're much more likely to get out of a situation where you might have otherwise come off badly in. In my friend's case, running his ID might have shown he was on parole (I can't remember if he was or not), which might have given them "reasonable suspicion" to search him, which might have uncovered the dime bag he was probably carrying.

Non-citizens are more obliged to cooperate than USC's, but even they have rights under the law, including the right not to be unreasonably detained and/or searched. I hope everyone here has instructed their spouses and fiance(e)'s in what to do if they're stopped.

The bold statement above is the most important lesson for foreign spouses: "don't be intimidated! Never!"

Let me tell you about my "running with the law" in Mississippi. I was harassed, but I did not let myself be intimidated.

I used to live in a state that did not support the confederate flag. I had rented a vehicle in Florida, which I drove to Mississippi. Imagine my surprise when three police cars surrounded me and they told me that the registration tags did not belong to the vehicle I was driving. However, the rental agreement had the proper numbers. Because of that, the police had the "probable cause" to search me and my vehicle. Despite that, they "asked" for permission to search the vehicle, to which I agreed (I did not know my rights well enough then). Anyway, they searched everything I allowed them to search.

Later on, after they did not find anything, one of them tried to harass me and asked:

"What is a person with a license from another state (very far from Florida) doing in Mississippi with a vehicle licensed in Florida?"

To which I answered:

"Last time I checked, it was not illegal to do so."

At this point I was let go, but not before the disappointed (because they had nothing to arrest me on) policeman gave me a warning: "I recommend you to leave Mississippi quickly because next shift of policemen will question you the same way if they see you

What a hospitable state! Despite that, my immigration status was never a question. A proper ID (state license) had been provided.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Can you even get a drivers license without AOS? I know you can't in California, we tried. Maybe other states have looser requirements.

My state only requires an SSN. They assume that the government has already checked your legal status when given an SSN.

[Martyshk 137]

My state only requires an SSN. They assume that the government has already checked your legal status when given an SSN.

SSN and a form of ID for us, as far as I know. It's easier to go get the State ID off the bat, and then just use it for everything.

[Martyshk 137]

LOL Well let me put you at ease.

Awww, did I just make Gary LOL? Can I haz cookie?

[slim 1,533]

then anything they find on that individual might be thrown out in trial.

Might is a very key word in that sentence.

that's when I figured out that the po-po just hope that you don't understand your rights. Understand your rights, even in the face of a policeman screaming in your face

In Gary's story it sounds like the women waived their rights more than once.

I hope everyone here has instructed their spouses and fiance(e)'s in what to do

Yeah, it's called carry your freakin ID and you won't have any problems.

But the question in regards to AOS is what's the proper ID?

If a foreign national is able to acquire a State ID (driver's license or other), that should be enough to satisfy the ID requirements. No need for Passport, I-94, or even Marriage Certificate. Therefore, no need for AOS. A police officer cannot force an individual to shoe immigration status papers if the "proper" ID was provided.

That is correct, and in Gary's story, the women complied with the police officer's request to see their immigration ID.

Had the driver of the vehicle said, "I've shown you my ID, that's enough." They would've been just fine. However, without knowing what the original stop was for (sounds like they were standing (parked) on the side of the road waiting for a friend) it's hard to tell what their rights were or what exactly happened. As I said before, they probably identified the driver, heard the accent, asked about a GC then attempted to ID the passenger. When neither woman was able to produce ID in relation to immigration status, that's when it was taken to the next level. The women waived their rights more than once in Gary's story.

Even on a Terry Stop, that is what it boils down to. Passport and other important documents can be kept safely at home. Those were checked by the state when the state ID was procured.

Not in all states. In most states it's possible to get a valid state ID and/or DL with a valid visa. That visa could expire but the ID could still be valid. Most states now are cracking down (because of our friends from south of the border and new DHS requirements) on expiration dates and making them the same as expiration dates of immigration paperwork.

Perhaps someday Obama could make it mandatory for all govt. agencies to talk to each other and all paperwork to comply with paperwork issued from another dept. One system for everything, maybe?

Can you even get a drivers license without AOS? I know you can't in California, we tried. Maybe other states have looser requirements.

Here in Ohio it is possible to get a DL but it expires when the visa/green card expires. All foreign nationals must have valid immigration paperwork to get a DL.

Local law enforcement should not be tasked with determining citizenship or status. They should be enforcing the local laws of their jurisdiction, period.

Laws don't pertain to non-citizens though, and that's where the grey area comes in. Someone who is not a citizen (or recognized visa-holder, LPR, etc.) isn't recognized by our system. It's like they don't even exist. We can charge them, try them, etc., but without some sort of legal status, about the worst we can do to them is start deportation proceedings.

The reason local law enforcement has to ascertain immigration status is because they often can't proceed in the same manner against an illegal. Also, it's their duty to ascertain status, especially of foreigners because who knows if they're terrorists, spies, etc. Our local law enforcement is the first line of defense!

And sometimes they just get bored and would like to spend as much time with hot women as possible.

Regardless of any of the above answers, that still doesn't make it necessary to file for AOS.

the registration tags did not belong to the vehicle I was driving. However, the rental agreement had the proper numbers. Because of that, the police had the "probable cause" to search me and my vehicle. Despite that, they "asked" for permission to search the vehicle, to which I agreed (I did not know my rights well enough then). Anyway, they searched everything I allowed them to search.

Later on, after they did not find anything, one of them tried to harass me and asked:

"What is a person with a license from another state (very far from Florida) doing in Mississippi with a vehicle licensed in Florida?"

To which I answered:

"Last time I checked, it was not illegal to do so."

At this point I was let go, but not before the disappointed (because they had nothing to arrest me on) policeman gave me a warning: "I recommend you to leave Mississippi quickly because next shift of policemen will question you the same way if they see you

And the outcome would've been exactly the same on the next shift.

If they have probable cause, they don't need to ask you to search your vehicle. However, it's always easier to admit evidence after gaining permission to search than it is to admit evidence found in a search based on probable cause.

Regardless of what happened, plain and simple - you were profiled. Drug traffickers often use rentals and more often than not, the three states don't match up. The driver's ID comes from one state, rental car registered in another, traveling through a third state. I've never thought police were smarter than the average bear, but I've never thought they were incapable of deductive reasoning either.

My first experience with Mississippi was stopping into the Welcome Center and being served a free Coca-Cola. How nice!

In Gary's story the driver presented proper state ID for a driver. However, it was only AFTER she was identified did the police attempt to ascertain her immigration status and the identification/status of her passenger. Had she ended the stop or their questioning right then "I've already shown you my ID." Things may've turned out differently. Had she denied their request to follow them back to the police station, things may've turned out differently. Had either one of the women been carrying their immigration documentation, things may've turned out differently. Regardless of all of that..... there's still no need to file AOS.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

But the question in regards to AOS is what's the proper ID?

If a foreign national is able to acquire a State ID (driver's license or other), that should be enough to satisfy the ID requirements. No need for Passport, I-94, or even Marriage Certificate. Therefore, no need for AOS. A police officer cannot force an individual to shoe immigration status papers if the "proper" ID was provided.

Even on a Terry Stop, that is what it boils down to. Passport and other important documents can be kept safely at home. Those were checked by the state when the state ID was procured.

Not necessarily so. Vermont will issue a drivers license to any foreign national that shows they can stay legally for 180 days from entry. Alla had her driver's lisence well before her green card. Had her AOS been denied and she was deported she would still be in possession of a valid driver's license from Vermont. Unless it is one of the new enhanced license available only to citizens. (We can use this instead of a passport to go to Canada)

One can argue the legality of what police do. Are they allowed to search your vehicle without a warrant or probable cause? No. Can they ask to? Yes. If you give permission can they? Yes. so two women sititng in the parking lot waiting for the third woman are approached, they have foreign accents and are located minutes from an international border with a known incidence of illegal immigration. One has only a drivers license which does not indicate she is legal in the country, the other has a student ID. The officer ASKS them to follow him to the police station and they agree. They agree to wait in the LOBBY at the police station until ICE comes and talks to them and verifies they are legal in the country. They are at no time arrested, handcuffed or in any way physically restrained.

If you ask me the police did what they could to assure the women were legally here within their limitations and the women voluntarly cooperated. Could they have told the cops to "stuff it". Maybe. They didn't. Would they have had the problem if they had their proper ID showing they are legal in the US. I doubt it. Should they always carry the proper ID. Yes. Can it be a prblem if you don't? Yes. How much do you want problems? Should your wife or fiancee carry her proper immigration papers....by law, YES. Whether you have her do it or not is your business.

The idea of the copy of the green card is a good one, Alla carries her green card with her, not a copy, but she also goes to Canada several times in a week and needs the genuine article for that, and she often does not know when she leaves the house that she will go to Canada or not that day.

[Ban Hammer 14,481]

Can you even get a drivers license without AOS? I know you can't in California, we tried. Maybe other states have looser requirements.

kansas issued nessa the standard 6 year license prior to her filing aos.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Can you even get a drivers license without AOS? I know you can't in California, we tried. Maybe other states have looser requirements.

Local law enforcement should not be tasked with determining citizenship or status. They should be enforcing the local laws of their jurisdiction, period.

Yes. In Vermont you need to show you can legally remain for 180 days AND that you are domiciled in Vermont. This means you can use a bank statement, utility bill OR an affidavit from a Vermont resident that you live with them and proof that they are a resident, which would be most people entering on a visitor visa. Alla needed her K-1 and marriage license, and bank statement. Unless you can show a green card (or something else) allowing you to stay MORE than two years, they issue you a two year lisence. We will have a SLIGHT issue in that when she renews her two year drivers license will be before she has her 10 year green card so she will get another 2 year license instead of the standard 4 year license. No big deal.

In Vermont, a K-1 could enter, get married, get a drivers license (SS number is not required even) and leave the country, forfeiting their AOS and green card (and right to be here) and still have a valid drivers license.

Law enforcement CAN and does enforce any laws. They have to Mox. However, in this case, like many, they called in people who are expert in it before "enforcing anything" What you are suggesting is to suggest that the bank should call the FBI if they are robbed!!!!!!!! Eventually the FBI will get involved but they are hardly "first responders" Should the St. Albans police ignore smugglers bringing pot from Canada if they catch them off loading a boat on the lakeshore? Or smugglers bringing human cargo? Sillyl