Is America taking over Haiti?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Oh now Gary. Do you really want to go there? Are you forgetting the schooling that was provided for you? The telephone and electrical cables that provided you and your family access to a telephone and electricity. The infrastructure of plumbing that provided you with running water to drink, bathe, wash your clothes and flush with. The public libraries that gave you free access to books. The roads for access to other areas as well as giving access to your home for emergency services, which also were provided to you in case you needed it. Adequate hospitals that won't turn you away even if you don't have a dime. Parks that you could play in or take a stroll. Water treatment plants so that you and your family wouldn't die from water born pathogens. All these wonderful benefits of growing up and living in a society that provided you these and yet you can't seem to recognize them.

Maybe you should have been born in a poor country like Haiti, then you would know what your life would have been like without all those benefits. That's something Libertarianism will never teach you.

The government did not provide my telephone and cable or electricity. Those are provided by private companies for a profit. As was plumbing, water supplies (even municiple water supplies make a profit) Roads are built by private contractors using money taken from my earnings making goods and services people pay for and I make a profit on. The people building roads make a profit, or they wouldn't build roads. Libraries are similarly paid by taking money from my earnings that I vote to approve. The hospital, a huge one, in our community is paid for by donations and by a University. Water borne pathogens of which we had plenty were eliminated when it was profitable to do so and not before.

My point is we are NOT a poor country because we are allowed and able to make a profit doing thinsg and therefore we have lots of things no one wants to do in a country where they rely on government for all the things you list. Obviously, that doesn't work. haiti is what you get when the government is in charge and it doesn't matter whether it is Obama's government or Chavez's government or Stalins' government. When the government is relied on for the things we enjoy, they simply never exist.

Your suggestion that Haitians cannot do what we have done is repulsive.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Oh now Gary. Do you really want to go there? Are you forgetting the schooling that was provided for you? The telephone and electrical cables that provided you and your family access to a telephone and electricity. The infrastructure of plumbing that provided you with running water to drink, bathe, wash your clothes and flush with. The public libraries that gave you free access to books. The roads for access to other areas as well as giving access to your home for emergency services, which also were provided to you in case you needed it. Adequate hospitals that won't turn you away even if you don't have a dime. Parks that you could play in or take a stroll. Water treatment plants so that you and your family wouldn't die from water born pathogens. All these wonderful benefits of growing up and living in a society that provided you these and yet you can't seem to recognize them.

Maybe you should have been born in a poor country like Haiti, then you would know what your life would have been like without all those benefits. That's something Libertarianism will never teach you.

The government did not provide my telephone and cable or electricity. Those are provided by private companies for a profit. As was plumbing, water supplies (even municiple water supplies make a profit) Roads are built by private contractors using money taken from my earnings making goods and services people pay for and I make a profit on. The people building roads make a profit, or they wouldn't build roads. Libraries are similarly paid by taking money from my earnings that I vote to approve. The hospital, a huge one, in our community is paid for by donations and by a University. Water borne pathogens of which we had plenty were eliminated when it was profitable to do so and not before.

My point is we are NOT a poor country because we are allowed and able to make a profit doing thinsg and therefore we have lots of things no one wants to do in a country where they rely on government for all the things you list. Obviously, that doesn't work. haiti is what you get when the government is in charge and it doesn't matter whether it is Obama's government or Chavez's government or Stalins' government. When the government is relied on for the things we enjoy, they simply never exist.

Your suggestion that Haitians cannot do what we have done is repulsive.

[natty bumppo 297]

The government did not provide my telephone and cable or electricity. Those are provided by private companies for a profit. As was plumbing, water supplies (even municiple water supplies make a profit) Roads are built by private contractors using money taken from my earnings making goods and services people pay for and I make a profit on. The people building roads make a profit, or they wouldn't build roads. Libraries are similarly paid by taking money from my earnings that I vote to approve. The hospital, a huge one, in our community is paid for by donations and by a University. Water borne pathogens of which we had plenty were eliminated when it was profitable to do so and not before.

My point is we are NOT a poor country because we are allowed and able to make a profit doing thinsg and therefore we have lots of things no one wants to do in a country where they rely on government for all the things you list. Obviously, that doesn't work. haiti is what you get when the government is in charge and it doesn't matter whether it is Obama's government or Chavez's government or Stalins' government. When the government is relied on for the things we enjoy, they simply never exist.

Your suggestion that Haitians cannot do what we have done is repulsive.

according to some here they want haiti to have self determination ... yet history prevents or the gubbermint will make everything more better ...

[FortLaudy 10]

according to some here they want haiti to have self determination ... yet history prevents or the gubbermint will make everything more better ...

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

My dutch ancestors in south africa had Nothing when they adventured over there and settled down, they built Everything from scratch, from the ground up, no free handouts, no nothing...

not like apartheid played any role....

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Last I checked all the things you mention are paid for by hard working tax payers such as Gary. A lot of them have bills attached to them that must be paid on a monthly basis.

Maybe you should move to Haiti so you would have a REAL reason to FEEL SORRY for yourself.

Exactly. Hatians cannot pay tax because they cannot produce income to BE taxed because they rely on the government to do everything and the government never will do everything. Which Haitian will build a road? Who will pay him to build the road? For what? Which haitian has a car to drive on the road? Whose income will they tax? What does that Haitian make or sell to earn money to pay a tax? For the modern society to work, and even for a government to function at the behest of the people, the people have to work and prodcue something of value. If a government will come along and say "we will do it all" than there is no one to benefit from anything and no incentive to ado anything...except escape.

we do NOT need to take over Haiti and they will not be better of if we do.

[FortLaudy 10]

Apartheid came Much later, after all the infrastructure etc. was built

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

not like apartheid played any role....

everything plays a role. The Dutch went to S. Africa and oppressed the natives (which is what I am arguing against) and built a very advanced country for themsleves, albeit a lot of the labor was conscripted. Slavery plays a role in our history and our "former slaves" (well since the term has been applied to Haitians, why not?) are only oppressed as long as they rely on the government to save them. They still are.

The haitians can grab the knobs and take control of their own destiny and now is an excellent time to do it. Government has failed them for hundreds of years, time to get control of things themselves.

[FortLaudy 10]

Ok, maybe using SA was a bad example. How about EUROPE???????

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Europe sounds like a better example, until you face the fact (yes, fact) that the industrial revolution would not have been possible were it not for economic exploitation of poor Europeans (cheap labor) and colonialism (raw materials).

Does that in any way negate the importance of the industrial revolution? No. It just means that pure of motive, principled hard work is generally a myth. Generally, people ѕhit on other people all the time even when great progress is being made.

That being said, if people can take massive dumps on each other to make way for a better future, there is little reason to believe that there is anything wrong with people doing good for each other in hopes of achieving the same thing.

[FortLaudy 10]

So what, they had the initiative to do what it takes to build the life that they wanted. Anybody else can do the same. If they don't, don't expect free hand outs... survival of the fittest if you wanna call it that I guess. Still, giving free money to what people you call "poor" does simply not solve their problem of "poverty", they have to take initiative to come up with ideas to solve their own problems and seek out a better life and standard of living if they wish to, whether it's taking a big dump on someone else or not, do atleast Something to help yourself instead of relying on free handouts.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

So what, they had the initiative to do what it takes to build the life that they wanted. Anybody else can do the same. If they don't, don't expect free hand outs... survival of the fittest if you wanna call it that I guess. Still, giving free money to what people you call "poor" does simply not solve their problem of "poverty", they have to take initiative to come up with ideas to solve their own problems and seek out a better life and standard of living if they wish to, whether it's taking a big dump on someone else or not, do atleast Something to help yourself instead of relying on free handouts.

Survival of the fittest is precisely what it is. Not principled and pure hard work. The truth is uglier.

Even the history of the U.S. is littered with the bodies of First Nations people, not to mention black slaves.

None of this is to detract from the great nation that has arisen. It is to simply acknowledge that pure hard work with the purest of intentions.. is generally a myth.

[FortLaudy 10]

Then so be it, survival of the fittest we shall call it, I will still not feel ashamed but rather proud of what my ancestors achieved and so should everyone, after all it's just part of nature and history is history, I'm sick of people blaming history for all their problems of today, it's BS and just excuses.

Take away all the interference and judgement and free handouts and leave the people to fend for themselves and they will most certainly find a way to survive and be prosperous, it might not be our definition of prosperous but they will make most of it, because they will Have to if they stop getting free handouts.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Survival of the fittest is precisely what it is. Not principled and pure hard work. The truth is uglier.

Even the history of the U.S. is littered with the bodies of First Nations people, not to mention black slaves.

None of this is to detract from the great nation that has arisen. It is to simply acknowledge that pure hard work with the purest of intentions.. is generally a myth.

well I never argued purity. If the Haitians need to crack a few heads to get on with building a great country or import...I dont know, who would a Haitian oppress? Somalians? Then so be it. Get on with it and tell Obama and Chavez to shove off (unload the cargo planes first, then tell them to shove off) The fact is they can do it if they want to and they can make a profit doing it.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Then so be it, survival of the fittest we shall call it, I will still not feel ashamed but rather proud of what my ancestors achieved ...

And a few posts ago, you claimed to be against slavery