Is America taking over Haiti?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

"Society" does not provide us with ANYthing. WE provide ourselves with everything.

Oh now Gary. Do you really want to go there? Are you forgetting the schooling that was provided for you? The telephone and electrical cables that provided you and your family access to a telephone and electricity. The infrastructure of plumbing that provided you with running water to drink, bathe, wash your clothes and flush with. The public libraries that gave you free access to books. The roads for access to other areas as well as giving access to your home for emergency services, which also were provided to you in case you needed it. Adequate hospitals that won't turn you away even if you don't have a dime. Parks that you could play in or take a stroll. Water treatment plants so that you and your family wouldn't die from water born pathogens. All these wonderful benefits of growing up and living in a society that provided you these and yet you can't seem to recognize them.

Maybe you should have been born in a poor country like Haiti, then you would know what your life would have been like without all those benefits. That's something Libertarianism will never teach you.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

It would be a long term investment...to rebuild the country, bring it out of dire poverty and give it stability.

Kinda like Iraq?

[FortLaudy 10]

The point that's being missed is this: In each society going back hundreds of years: All people have been given hands and brains and were born on a piece of land. Agreed?

1. Some communities decide to use their hands and brains and work their land into something profitable and comfortable for the entire society that they live in and create opportunities and infrastructure for generations to follow - techonology, schools, parks, etc. like you describe above

2. Some people have been given the exact same: hands, brains and land, and do not as above, but live a hand to mouth existence.

The ones that created the society as in 1. look down on 2. and call them "poor", "backwards", "uneducated" etc. because they look at things from their perspective: if we can build big buildings have technology that make our lives easier, elaborate infrastructure etc. and they don't have the same as us they are labeled "poor" and there is this idea that the people in 1. have to help out the 2. people.

I call BS on this, sometimes the people who live a simple life without all the fancy materialistic ####### have far better and more fullfilling lives than the 1.'s (seen the documentary "meet the natives" on Natgeo recently?). They in turn criticise our lifestyles: living this hurried life in hunt of money just to keep up with the Jones's, for what?

I respect these people and the way they live and choose to live, interfering in their existence and lives giving them free handouts is wrong and useless and only creates problems, just let them be.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Oh now Gary. Do you really want to go there? Are you forgetting the schooling that was provided for you? The telephone and electrical cables that provided you and your family access to a telephone and electricity. The infrastructure of plumbing that provided you with running water to drink, bathe, wash your clothes and flush with. The public libraries that gave you free access to books. The roads for access to other areas as well as giving access to your home for emergency services, which also were provided to you in case you needed it. Adequate hospitals that won't turn you away even if you don't have a dime. Parks that you could play in or take a stroll. Water treatment plants so that you and your family wouldn't die from water born pathogens. All these wonderful benefits of growing up and living in a society that provided you these and yet you can't seem to recognize them.

Maybe you should have been born in a poor country like Haiti, then you would know what your life would have been like without all those benefits. That's something Libertarianism will never teach you.

Last I checked all the things you mention are paid for by hard working tax payers such as Gary. A lot of them have bills attached to them that must be paid on a monthly basis.

Maybe you should move to Haiti so you would have a REAL reason to FEEL SORRY for yourself.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The point that's being missed is this: In each society going back hundreds of years: All people have been given hands and brains and were born on a piece of land. Agreed?

1. Some communities decide to use their hands and brains and work their land into something profitable and comfortable for the entire society that they live in and create opportunities and infrastructure for generations to follow - techonology, schools, parks, etc. like you describe above

2. Some people have been given the exact same: hands, brains and land, and do not as above, but live a hand to mouth existence.

The ones that created the society as in 1. look down on 2. and call them "poor", "backwards", "uneducated" etc. because they look at things from their perspective: if we can build big buildings have technology that make our lives easier, elaborate infrastructure etc. and they don't have the same as us they are labeled "poor" and there is this idea that the people in 1. have to help out the 2. people.

I call BS on this, sometimes the people who live a simple life without all the fancy materialistic ####### have far better and more fullfilling lives than the 1.'s (seen the documentary "meet the natives" on Natgeo recently?). They in turn criticise our lifestyles: living this hurried life in hunt of money just to keep up with the Jones's, for what?

I respect these people and the way they live and choose to live, interfering in their existence and lives giving them free handouts is wrong and useless and only creates problems, just let them be.

Haiti is the leftover remnants of colonialism. The natives who once inhabitated the entire island for centuries with their own sustainable system have long been extinct. Those who currently inhabit Haiti are descendants of slaves - people who were taken from their own eco-systems and used as laborers who helped once make that area the richest colony in the Americas. I could on and on about the historical context of why Haiti is still stuck in poverty, but I think you get the point. It's not that the Haitians want a more primitive life. I'd encourage you to read into their history to understand the plight of the people.

[natty bumppo 297]

Haiti is the leftover remnants of colonialism. The natives who once inhabitated the entire island for centuries with their own sustainable system have long been extinct. Those who currently inhabit Haiti are descendants of slaves - people who were taken from their own eco-systems and used as laborers who helped once make that area the richest colony in the Americas. I could on and on about the historical context of why Haiti is still stuck in poverty, but I think you get the point. It's not that the Haitians want a more primitive life. I'd encourage you to read into their history to understand the plight of the people.

so they are stuck in history? unable to move beyond the past?

now is a good chance to rebuild and move forward ....

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

now is a good chance to rebuild and move forward ....

[FortLaudy 10]

I still think if we stop interfering and stop judging other societies by western standards and leave them alone to fend for themselves they will HAVE TO start using their God given hands and brains and natural resources and make the most out of the country they own - whether they choose to live Western or primitive, up to them and we are not to judge how they choose to live. Human beings have very simple needs:

Physiological Needs, Saftey, Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness,Needs for Esteem,Needs for Self-Actualization.

Being able to do your biz on a toilet instead of behind a bush, or learning folk stories around a camp fire instead of learning chemistry in a library, the pride in shooting a deer for dinner instead of buying the latest SUV, people find their needs in different ways, I don't see what gives us the right to judge and deem the Western way so much more superior than other communites and feel this great big need to spread our religions and way of life accross the earth...

Giving them free money will not help, that's a guarantee, it will only further enable the poverty you describe and will be an endless cycle.

[natty bumppo 297]

self determination ... hard work ... internal investing ... make it what they want ... they have the brains and labor available to develop the society they wish to have.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Natty Bumppo

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

self determination ... hard work ... internal investing ... make it what they want ... they have the brains and labor available to develop the society they wish to have.

What a concept. huh?

[natty bumppo 297]

What a concept. huh?

yea ... they don't need a foreign gov't, externally selected puppet gov't, or busy-body neighboring countries telling them what is best for them. should they decide to live in grass huts ... ####### in the street ... drink water from mud puddles after horses filled them up ... so be it. it's their country ...

[FortLaudy 10]

yea ... they don't need a foreign gov't, externally selected puppet gov't, or busy-body neighboring countries telling them what is best for them. should they decide to live in grass huts ... ####### in the street ... drink water from mud puddles after horses filled them up ... so be it. it's their country ...

Exactly!

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

yea ... they don't need a foreign gov't, externally selected puppet gov't, or busy-body neighboring countries telling them what is best for them. should they decide to live in grass huts ... ####### in the street ... drink water from mud puddles after horses filled them up ... so be it. it's their country ...

Exactly!

[natty bumppo 297]

Oh now Gary. Do you really want to go there? Are you forgetting the schooling that was provided for you? The telephone and electrical cables that provided you and your family access to a telephone and electricity. The infrastructure of plumbing that provided you with running water to drink, bathe, wash your clothes and flush with. The public libraries that gave you free access to books. The roads for access to other areas as well as giving access to your home for emergency services, which also were provided to you in case you needed it. Adequate hospitals that won't turn you away even if you don't have a dime. Parks that you could play in or take a stroll. Water treatment plants so that you and your family wouldn't die from water born pathogens. All these wonderful benefits of growing up and living in a society that provided you these and yet you can't seem to recognize them.

Maybe you should have been born in a poor country like Haiti, then you would know what your life would have been like without all those benefits. That's something Libertarianism will never teach you.

of course ... Haiti will be required to provide these things to their own citizens through individual initiative and individual investment in their own country. should they decide not too ... then they shouldn't expect anyone else to provide for them either ...

[FortLaudy 10]

of course ... Haiti will be required to provide these things to their own citizens through individual initiative and individual investment in their own country. should they decide not too ... then they shouldn't expect anyone else to provide for them either ...

Exactly ! My dutch ancestors in south africa had Nothing when they adventured over there and settled down, they built Everything from scratch, from the ground up, no free handouts, no nothing... everyone can do the same if they so wish and if they don't so be it, don't interfere... c'est la vie or atleast how it should be.