Is America taking over Haiti?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Sure, why not? We've had a hostile Cuba next door for over 50 years so why not a Haiti dependent on Venezuelan aid?

That would be amusing to watch. Chavez's money is weak, he can't afford to make Haiti his bitсh even if he wanted to.

And now for a slight tangent: while googling for this thread, I discovered that there is actually a semi-serious discussion in Canada on whether or not they should annex Turks and Caicos.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

My crackpot theory is that we *want* these countries to be poor, dependent and lazy.

Sure, handouts cost us money, but nowhere near what it would cost us if all these poor

countries became rich and started competing with us for scarce resources in a world

with many developing countries (e.g. China and India) that are already competitive

enough to be considered a threat.

I think it has more to do with trying to work with corrupt Third World governments without recognizing that such corrupt governments are the key reasons for the perpetual state of poverty.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I think it has more to do with trying to work with corrupt Third World governments without recognizing that such corrupt governments are the key reasons for the perpetual state of poverty.

Your theory strikes me as naive. You think the governments of America (and Canada and Australia and Europe) don't realize that while you do?

Mark's "crackpot" theory strikes me as much more plausible.

[chri'stina 190]

I just look at things a little different, cause I grew up with these (what people refer to as 'poor') people in Africa

I still think we look at things from a western perspective and want to 'fix' what we don't see as adequate, I'll break down your list:

access to drinkable water - I grew up hiking, in Africa a lot of the water is very drinkable, straight from the river,I would've been dead by now if it wasn't

adequate sanitation - sanitation such as toilets? = western, most people in Africa have been doing it behind a bush and wiping with a leaf for centuries.

access to medical care - most Africans would rather take the advice and medication of their traditional doctors (often what we call 'witchdoctors') than any western style doctor

basic food and shelter - they can build shelter and grow food, how do you think pioneers survived on discovering and settling in a new country?

schools - studying what syllabus? Western language, history from western perspective etc.

People like to say "everyone's the same" no they're not... different communites measure their success in life differently, here it's all about making money, in Africa it's more about the sense of community and family and living straight from the land...

So there are not areas that are suffering huh? They are all fine and dandy with their current predicaments in every African area? Your points have nothing to do with people who are actually in a state of suffering due to poverty.

[FortLaudy 10]

I think it has more to do with trying to work with corrupt Third World governments without recognizing that such corrupt governments are the key reasons for the perpetual state of poverty.

Why are they trying to work with them? leave them and let them fight their own battles, please describe this poverty to me, I just don't understand it, yes, in our eyes they are poor, but to them it's just life as usual.

[Danno 1,228]

Yes and I know why you are so fond of him.. you both have a socialist streak running through you.

B)

FDR seriously proposed this ... and I am sure Steve you wish it had succeeded.

FDRs Second Bill of Rights

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation; The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

How would one even have defined in Law this stuff?

It's possible they can do without a first Bill Of Rights... and go right to the second, ehh steve?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I just look at things a little different, cause I grew up with these (what people refer to as 'poor') people in Africa

I still think we look at things from a western perspective and want to 'fix' what we don't see as adequate, I'll break down your list:

access to drinkable water - I grew up hiking, in Africa a lot of the water is very drinkable, straight from the river,I would've been dead by now if it wasn't

adequate sanitation - sanitation such as toilets? = western, most people in Africa have been doing it behind a bush and wiping with a leaf for centuries.

access to medical care - most Africans would rather take the advice and medication of their traditional doctors (often what we call 'witchdoctors') than any western style doctor

basic food and shelter - they can build shelter and grow food, how do you think pioneers survived on discovering and settling in a new country?

schools - studying what syllabus? Western language, history from western perspective etc.

People like to say "everyone's the same" no they're not... different communites measure their success in life differently, here it's all about making money, in Africa it's more about the sense of community and family and living straight from the land...

I understand the dilemma with trying to fix post-colonial settlements. The damage to those sustainable cultures was already done long ago. Countries in Africa went from local, sustainable agriculture to growing cash crops.

I would agree that simply throwing money at poverty doesn't solve it. But we can make reasonable assessments as to what kind of humanitarian aid we can provide for countries that addresses both their immediate and long term needs.

[FortLaudy 10]

So there are not areas that are suffering huh? They are all fine and dandy with their current predicaments in every African area? Your points have nothing to do with people who are actually in a state of suffering due to poverty.

Maybe they are suffering but it's at their own hands. Africa is one of the countries with the most natural resources with tons of potential. It's up to the people living there to use their brains and hands and make something from it, and it's not up to us to help them out if they can't. Please define what you see as poverty - I will show you how this is from a western perspective. I don't see why western countries feel this great big need to save Africa or other poor countries by giving them free food and money, it's not helping and that has been very obvious, in fact it's only making things worse as they become dependant on free stuff.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Why are they trying to work with them? leave them and let them fight their own battles, please describe this poverty to me, I just don't understand it, yes, in our eyes they are poor, but to them it's just life as usual.

Let's take an example - the high rate of death during childbirth among mothers.

Yes, they know they stand a high chance of dying while giving birth.

Yes, they accept the risk as part of life as usual.

And yet, can you honestly tell me they wouldn't prefer to live?

That's what charity is about. It's about giving another human being a little more happiness than they already have. Charity isn't about hard-nosed calculations (except when dealing with the IRS) but is really a way to emotionally reach out to another human being and give them something they might like to have. Like a greater chance at life.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Why are they trying to work with them? leave them and let them fight their own battles, please describe this poverty to me, I just don't understand it, yes, in our eyes they are poor, but to them it's just life as usual.

Economic injustice.

....

No recent statistics exist, but it is widely accepted that Haiti is not merely the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere but also one of the most unequal. A small elite of no more than several thousand families is extremely wealthy, including many millionaires among their number. In stark contrast, an estimated 80 percent of Haitians live in absolute poverty. There is a small middle class comprised of civil servants and other state-sector employees, but a vast gulf exists between a tiny rich minority and the overwhelmingly poor majority. Class and color have overlapped ever since Haitian independence, with the lighter-skinned minority occupying positions of political and economic power. This status quo was challenged by the Duvalier dictatorship, which promoted some of its black supporters into a growing middle class.

The country's wealthy are clustered around the cooler mountainside suburb of Pétionville, where French restaurants and luxury car concessions cater to expensive tastes. Education and medical services are entirely private, and the children of the elite tend to be educated abroad, either in Paris or the United States. Shopping trips to Miami are commonplace, and most of the richest families hold dollar bank accounts in the United States.

Life for the rural and urban poor could not be more different. Most Haitians live in small, often remote, villages or isolated settlements, with no access to electricity, clean water, or social services. Some rudimentary education is offered by church and other charitable organizations, but the distances children must travel to school, the costs of books and uniforms, and the necessity for them to work from an early age means that illiteracy is estimated at over half of the adult population. Illness can often spell financial disaster, as meager savings or investments such as a pig must be sold to pay for medicines. In some areas large numbers of people are dependent on aid agencies for food supplies.

Existence in the teeming slums of Port-au-Prince is perhaps even grimmer, with overcrowding, disease, and squalor widespread. Those who work can expect to earn no more than US$2 a day, hardly enough to buy food, let alone other necessities. The majority, however, must scrape some sort of living from the informal sector. Figures for child mortality, communicable diseases, and life expectancy reveal the country's poverty and deprivation. According to the Pan-American Health Organization, approximately 380,000 Haitians—over 5 percent of the population—were infected with HIV/AIDS by 2000.

link

[chri'stina 190]

Maybe they are suffering but it's at their own hands. Africa is one of the countries with the most natural resources with tons of potential. It's up to the people living there to use their brains and hands and make something from it, and it's not up to us to help them out if they can't. Please define what you see as poverty - I will show you how this is from a western perspective. I don't see why western countries feel this great big need to save Africa or other poor countries by giving them free food and money, it's not helping and that has been very obvious, in fact it's only making things worse as they become dependant on free stuff.

I have been to India and saw a lot of poverty there. I'm not ignorant to what poverty is.

I understand there are people happy to live their own way, no electricity, their own traditions etc. There are also those who are orphaned, unable to travel to where there may be more fertile soil and clean water, who end up in very bad situations. How about war zones too? If you want to hold adults accountable to "use their hands and brains", fine. But children cannot and they often suffer the worst part of poverty. You know that exists.

(I am not supporting the idea of the US going to take over Haiti btw, just discussing this specific issue)

[FortLaudy 10]

Let's take an example - the high rate of death during childbirth among mothers.

Yes, they know they stand a high chance of dying while giving birth.

Yes, they accept the risk as part of life as usual.

And yet, can you honestly tell me they wouldn't prefer to live?

That's what charity is about. It's about giving another human being a little more happiness than they already have. Charity isn't about hard-nosed calculations (except when dealing with the IRS) but is really a way to emotionally reach out to another human being and give them something they might like to have. Like a greater chance at life.

I agree, charity is awesome, I give my fair share but I see it like this: charity starts at home, if someone in my family needs money, I'll give it to them instead. If nobody does, my close friends/members of my community perhaps. I don't give money to bums on the street. America needs to start taking care of its own problems before blowing money away and wasting it on needless 'charity'. I think some of the charity going to poor countries is a complete waste of money/effort because we see 'poor' and judge people by western standards when there is no poor. And by giving free stuff we are making people more 'poor'.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... we see 'poor' and judge people by western standards when there is no poor.

Life is not a western standard.

[mawilson 2,133]

And yet, can you honestly tell me they wouldn't prefer to live?

Hell no. That's why they pop 400 babies because they know that only 67 will survive.

Not that 67 is a small number.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Hell no. That's why they pop 400 babies because they know that only 67 will survive.

Not that 67 is a small number.

no, your made up numbers are not very small.