Big Problem

[vietazn 1]

You have to understand in a typical Vietnamese-culture relationship, an Engagement ceremony (with the presence of HER parents) won't happen til you meet her parents. This is not in the US, where you can propose to her in private, then the 2 of you can go to Vegas for a private wedding.

The 2 trips prior to the Engagement ceremony is for meeting her parents and hopefully obtaining their approval. Nobody will believe your relationship is genuine if your first trip to see her family results in an Engagement ceremony a few days later. (and the CO will play the role of her parents here. They know this norm of the Vnese culture)

Nhap gia, tuy tuc (Following the house's rule if you step inside their place)

OP, there's a saying "It's better safe than being sorry". Make your decision and trips wisely. Don't over-calculate, try to save a few bucks now but have to shove out more $$$ later to lawyers due to white/blue slips.

My 3.14159©

Cultural norm is actually for his parents to meet her parents, especially since they are both young. Which means he meets her parents, and she meets his also. So best thing would be for him to get his family to go with him to Vietnam to plan the Le Dinh Hon.

[BinhJerome 14]

Hello everybody,

I am so happy I found this website. My name is Carl and I am 22 years old and live in the USA. My girlfriend, Thuy, is also 22 years old and lives in Vietnam. We met each other on vacation in Japan in June 2009 and once again in November 2009. Both times for 10 days. We will visit each other in Japan for 3rd time in February 2010. She lives in Vietnam but we have to meet each other each time in Japan because my family ABSOLUTELY forbids me from going to Vietnam. They have these nasty images in their heads about the Vietnam War and they think everybody there hates Americans, and if I go, they will capture me and put me in a Vietnamese prison. I really love my family but this hurts me so much

I love Thuy and cannot imagine being without her. I just want to know if there is any hope for me and Thuy in terms of K1, K3 or CR1 visa to bring her to the US to live with me. We have a lot of emails, chat logs and proof of visiting each other in Japan. I am worry that if we apply for a visa with the US Consulate in HCMC, they will deny us because I never visited Vietnam. What can I do? Can we marry in Japan and do apply for K3 with the embassy in japan?

Carl

They can not deny you for not going to Vietnam, as long as you can prove you have met and have a real relationship. However at HCMC they are a tough consulate and you should have an engagement party where her family and yours if possible can attend, this is a reason many people do in fact get denied a visa, so there is no real way around it. Tell your family that there is no problems with Vietnamese people and Americans, the war is long over, and more often than not the Vietnamese people adore Americans, I have been stopped on the street by strangers there that just wanted to practice English with me. But as others have said, you are 22, this is your life, not your family's. If you really love her and want to be with her, you might consider a trip to Vietnam for at least the engagement party. Good luck

Jerome and Binh

[cedwards001 18]

I did discuss this with my SO today and she agrees on having an engagement party. Since my family is completely opposed to going to Vietnam, I guess I will go alone. My question becomes will it be okay to have the engagement party with her entire family, but None of my family? I am also wondering if some members here have done that and if that is okay. If this is not okay, what could I do to address this red flag? Thanks,

Carl

[vietazn 1]

This is true. However, when they hand out a blue slip for a timeline, how many trips and the length of each trip are questions they specifically want answers to. Also, many denial slips have stated that pictures show petitioner only made one or two trips, and/or only spent a few days in the country. From these things, we can only presume that this carries some weight with the consulate. Exactly how to measure this weight is something only the consulate knows.

The pictures denial reason can also mean that there isn't enough variety of photos to show both people met more than a few days. Like 100 photos in HCM might not be as good as a total of 10 photos in HCM, Hue, Nha Trang, and Dalat. Or 100 photos with just two people might not be as good as 10 with family and friends present. I think that there is a unproven theory that more trips are better, that it does not consider substance over quantity. There is also the unproven frontloading-is-better theory, perhaps frontloading might not be beneficial for two young people without any real negatives in their files. For example, why would he want to provide from the get-go information that he went to Vietnam alone, his family didn't attend the Le Dinh Hon, when really none of that information needs to be in the petition? All it does is provide the consulate with more reasons for denial.

[vietazn 1]

I did discuss this with my SO today and she agrees on having an engagement party. Since my family is completely opposed to going to Vietnam, I guess I will go alone. My question becomes will it be okay to have the engagement party with her entire family, but None of my family? I am also wondering if some members here have done that and if that is okay. If this is not okay, what could I do to address this red flag? Thanks,

Carl

It's OK, but don't frontload that information. My mother went to Le Dinh Hon, I didn't volunteer that information, they only glanced through the photos, and it wasn't asked. Don't address it, but make sure she can respond if it is asked in the interview. What you can do is to plan the Le Dinh Hon directly with her parents. Work with the cards you are dealt with. If you have no real negatives on file, then consider carefully what you frontload, if anything.

[Anh map 2,098]

I was the only white face at my engagement. Don't worry about your family not attending. The public celebration of the engagement is what you want to show.

Don't try to fit your story into any specific recipe. We all met our SO's differently and have different life stories. Concentrate on showing the evolution of your relationship. Take all the experiences here and apply as needed.

Gather up any boarding passes that you both may have from your trips to Japan. Those along with passport stamps are excellent proof of being there at the same time.

[aaron2020 11,651]

I was the only white face at my engagement. Don't worry about your family not attending. The public celebration of the engagement is what you want to show.

Don't try to fit your story into any specific recipe. We all met our SO's differently and have different life stories. Concentrate on showing the evolution of your relationship. Take all the experiences here and apply as needed.

Gather up any boarding passes that you both may have from your trips to Japan. Those along with passport stamps are excellent proof of being there at the same time.

I concur with 100%. The only question is this a real relationship or not? Aside from flapping gums, you need to show them evidence of a real relationship. Concentrating on showing them how you met in Japan, what attracted you to each other, what you have learned about each other and why you want to be together.

Do you know each other likes and dislikes? Do you know each others' histories - schools, families, jobs, etc. Have you discussed having children? Things that comes up in any relationship before people decide to get marry.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

The pictures denial reason can also mean that there isn't enough variety of photos to show both people met more than a few days. Like 100 photos in HCM might not be as good as a total of 10 photos in HCM, Hue, Nha Trang, and Dalat. Or 100 photos with just two people might not be as good as 10 with family and friends present. I think that there is a unproven theory that more trips are better, that it does not consider substance over quantity. There is also the unproven frontloading-is-better theory, perhaps frontloading might not be beneficial for two young people without any real negatives in their files. For example, why would he want to provide from the get-go information that he went to Vietnam alone, his family didn't attend the Le Dinh Hon, when really none of that information needs to be in the petition? All it does is provide the consulate with more reasons for denial.

Yes, the benefits of frontloading have not been proven. The arguments for and against it have been made repeatedly. I read both sides before filing the petition, and decided that the reasons people gave for frontloading made a lot of sense to me, so I decided to frontload my petition. I took a "big picture" approach, with the attitude that the evidence submitted with the petition might very likely be the only evidence the CO would ever see. I wanted to make sure that my petition addressed every possible question I could imagine the CO would ask, and nailed down every possible red flag that might come up. I included a good assortment of primary evidence (three trips up to that point in time), about 16 pics (including a few of the engagement ceremony), a notarized timeline that answered the questions on the timeline blue slips as well as addressing several red flags, and a list of her relatives in the US.

Without an actual statement from the CO who interviewed Phuong, I will never know for certain whether any of this made any difference. What I do know is that they only asked her a few questions, quickly flipped through her pictures of the engagement ceremony, and gave her the pink sheet (which she saw had already been filled out when she walked up to the window). When I compare our results with what I've read about other people's cases here on VJ, I'm convinced that frontloading helped our case.

Also, when we went to see Mr. Nam and told him our story, his initial response was "This is going to be difficult. You've got a lot of red flags here." After he went through the copy of the petition package that Phuong had, he said "Ok, this is looking a lot better now." That was the same reaction I was hoping the CO would have after looking through the petition package.

I don't doubt that frontloading shaky evidence could actually make things worse. As you say, you could be giving the CO all the evidence he needs to deny the case. However, in that case I think you've got a shaky case to begin with, and you'd be hoping that not providing the evidence of it might hide that fact from the CO, and you might sneak by without him finding out. In the scenario you describe, you'd be hoping that the CO didn't ask about the Dinh Hon, or didn't ask if any of the petitioner's family attended. In other words, you'd be hoping to get lucky.

On the other hand, if there's a viable reason for those things then you could present those reasons with your frontloaded evidence. If you think that not having any petitioner's family members at the engagement ceremony is going to raise a red flag with the CO, then you could explain the reason for this in the evidence submitted with the petition. According to one immigration attorney in HCM, the consulate can't deny a visa for a reason which was known to USCIS when the petition was approved. I guess in order to disprove this theory we'd have to see a case where somebody had frontloaded evidence addressing a red flag, got their petition approved by USCIS, and the consulate used the same red flag to deny the visa. I kept this theory in mind when preparing my evidence, and addressed every red flag I could think of, and none of them were brought up at the interview. Again, I'll never know for certain if it worked, but it's consistent with the theory so I accept that it was good advice.

All of that said, I don't think any amount of frontloaded evidence is going to overcome every possible obstacle. For example, if you only met your fiancee once on a very brief trip, I doubt there's any way you could explain this sufficiently. The evidence has to show a believable relationship to begin with.

[BinhJerome 14]

I did discuss this with my SO today and she agrees on having an engagement party. Since my family is completely opposed to going to Vietnam, I guess I will go alone. My question becomes will it be okay to have the engagement party with her entire family, but None of my family? I am also wondering if some members here have done that and if that is okay. If this is not okay, what could I do to address this red flag? Thanks,

Carl

I would say it will be okay, but at the interview when asked, I would have your fiancée tell the CO that your family is just waiting for the wedding in America, and that is why they did not make it for the engagement party. There are many people that get denied and they do mention this, but I think it is just a canned denial reason, or that they did not explain in the interview the reasons they did not or were not able to attend. There are also many where the US citizens family did not attend and they did not have any issues about it as well. It just boils down to your prep and your facts of your relationship. Good luck

Jerome and Binh

[decker 1]

When I came in the Army in 1985, most of the folks that raised me as a young private fought in VN. They taught me that VN people were devils and prostitutes and beggars and just plain evil. They regaled my young ears with tales of combat against underhanded foes where we always came out on top because we were better somehow. I listened to angry people talking about "What they did to us". I soaked it all up and harbored the same resentment for years and when Clinton normalized relations, I felt like we had been betrayed.

Fast forward to 2005 when I made my first trip to VN working for the Joint POW/MIA Accounting command in Vinh Phuc, Ninh Binh and Son La provinces recovering remains of Americans from the war. In the 2 months I was there I saw a totally different people than what I was taught to see. No where was there any animosity, hate or intolerance toward me or anybody on my team. I learned that contrary to what Western people will have us believe there is more to SEA than prostitution, partying and cheap shopping. I learned about a people that are very family oriented, more so than Americans. I learned about people who want the same stuff I or anybody in America wants. I learned from veterans of the American and French war how VN soldiers believed in what they were doing just as much as we did, perhaps even more being they had the strength and discipline to see it through and win. I learned that the American war was a tiny blip on the history of VN; the French war is a much bigger deal and source of pride. I also learned about what WE did to them, which is far worse than anything they did.

I met my wife in 2007 and made 4 trips to see her and 1 more JPAC mission. I have been eeeeeeverywhere in the north and south of that country and never in 6 trips to VN, 1 to Cambodia and 3 to Thailand did I run into the devils I was taught to despise on sight. Never in any of the places I went, with or without Linh or a linguist, metropolitan or remote jungle mountainside did I feel like I was in any danger from the people around me.

You really need to go to VN. There are aspects of the culture that you will never get unless you go. You also MUST meet her family. You will have ZERO credibility with them if you don't. Bottom line is your family needs to let you get on with your life.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

When I came in the Army in 1985, most of the folks that raised me as a young private fought in VN. They taught me that VN people were devils and prostitutes and beggars and just plain evil. They regaled my young ears with tales of combat against underhanded foes where we always came out on top because we were better somehow. I listened to angry people talking about "What they did to us". I soaked it all up and harbored the same resentment for years and when Clinton normalized relations, I felt like we had been betrayed.

Fast forward to 2005 when I made my first trip to VN working for the Joint POW/MIA Accounting command in Vinh Phuc, Ninh Binh and Son La provinces recovering remains of Americans from the war. In the 2 months I was there I saw a totally different people than what I was taught to see. No where was there any animosity, hate or intolerance toward me or anybody on my team. I learned that contrary to what Western people will have us believe there is more to SEA than prostitution, partying and cheap shopping. I learned about a people that are very family oriented, more so than Americans. I learned about people who want the same stuff I or anybody in America wants. I learned from veterans of the American and French war how VN soldiers believed in what they were doing just as much as we did, perhaps even more being they had the strength and discipline to see it through and win. I learned that the American war was a tiny blip on the history of VN; the French war is a much bigger deal and source of pride. I also learned about what WE did to them, which is far worse than anything they did.

I met my wife in 2007 and made 4 trips to see her and 1 more JPAC mission. I have been eeeeeeverywhere in the north and south of that country and never in 6 trips to VN, 1 to Cambodia and 3 to Thailand did I run into the devils I was taught to despise on sight. Never in any of the places I went, with or without Linh or a linguist, metropolitan or remote jungle mountainside did I feel like I was in any danger from the people around me.

You really need to go to VN. There are aspects of the culture that you will never get unless you go. You also MUST meet her family. You will have ZERO credibility with them if you don't. Bottom line is your family needs to let you get on with your life.

I came on active duty in January of 1976. Those guys who told you those stories weren't grizzled old war vets back then - they only had a couple more stripes than I did. I heard some of those same stories, but I only heard a few describe the VN people the way you heard. I also heard about ARVN soldiers who fought bravely along side American soldiers - the ARVN lost more than 4 times as many troops in battle as the US. I heard about VN civilians trying hard to live a normal life in a country that had been engulfed in war for as long as most people had been alive. Many people don't realize it, but that war continued for 3 years after most of the US forces left, followed by two more wars with China.

I agree that what we did to them far outstrips what they did to us, but don't forget what they did to each other. Read about the Battle of Hue, and what the NVA had done to the people of that city during the time they occupied it, and especially what they did as they were withdrawing their troops. It's one thing to drop a bomb from 10,000 ft. and shrug your shoulders about "collateral damage". It's something else entirely to point an automatic weapon at an unarmed crowd of civilians and open fire.

People in VN today don't talk much about the war, but the Viet Kieu in America who escaped after the war will tell you about it. For every NVA soldier who took pride in the victory, there was an ARVN soldier who who was humiliated and ashamed for having lost. The shame was felt so deeply that many women were widowed because their husbands took their own lives.

My wife's uncle hid in the jungle from 1975 until 1979, when he finally escaped on a fishing boat in Da Nang. After nearly dying on the boat, they were rescued and he spent two years in a refugee camp in Hong Kong before finally coming to the US. In spite of the war's enormous unpopularity in the US, he is very grateful for what the US tried to do in VN, and feels as much sorrow for the Americans who lost their lives as he does for the VN people who died. I've heard this same sentiment from many of the Viet Kieu I know in the US.

There's a reason everyone takes more pride in the victory against the French. They were fighting for their independence from a colonial power. The term "American War" is a misnomer that was conjured up after the war ended - it began years before America arrived in VN, ended three years after America left, and was a civil war. Initially, it was the State of Vietnam against HCM's Viet Minh. Later, it was the Republic of Vietnam against the NLF.

There are many Viet Kieu, as well as people still living in Vietnam, who still believe to this day that "Vietnam" lost that war.

[wratran 0]

I did discuss this with my SO today and she agrees on having an engagement party. Since my family is completely opposed to going to Vietnam, I guess I will go alone. My question becomes will it be okay to have the engagement party with her entire family, but None of my family? I am also wondering if some members here have done that and if that is okay. If this is not okay, what could I do to address this red flag? Thanks,

Carl

We had our engagement just w/ my SO family...There were only 6 of the closest members of her family. The main purpose was to ask for her hand in marriage. We had pictures of everyone..toasting, singing karaoke...etc....The CO look at them and did not make any comments.

It wasnt even a formal type...no gown & tuxedo...etc...Everyone was in short and t-shirt having a good time.

[BurningFinger 5]

I have been away for a while and did some reading on some old threads and found this one. I just had to come and offer my point of view on this. I had a co-worker many years ago for a company I worked with. This is not a guy I particularly liked, but nonetheless communicated with. I do not remember all the details of his case, but he had this big thing going on in the office about how he met a Chinese girl and married her in the Philippines. I remember every single time this guy went on vacation, he went to meet her in the Philippines knowing that his girl was a Chinese national living in Beijing! He always bragged about how he would marry her and have a family with her and blah blah blah. Most of us in the office did not believe a word this guy was saying. Such an arrogant person he was. Anyways, he got married to her in Manila I think it was and applied for visa papers. I dont remember if he applied for the CR1 or K3 but most likely it would have been the K3 since his wife interviewed in the embassy in the Philippines. Anyways, some of the guys from the office and I went out to lunch with our girlfriends at the time and he shows up there with this good looking Asian girl. Turns out it is indeed the Chinese girl he bragged about every day. The dude even had the audacity to sit down at our table and say that his wife is "the hottest girl at the table" right next to my at the time girlfriend and my friends girlfriends! The nerve of this guy really!

Long story short, if what this guy did worked, then I think that the cedwards001 guy should be able to as well. He may need to front-load his petition up the wazoo, but it should be doable. Instead of submitting 20 pics, 20 emails, 20 letters, just submit everything. Hell go all out and front-load until your petition papers are like 2-3 inches thick. Hundreds of emails, hundreds of pictures, hundreds of letters, boarding passes, passport stamps, hundreds of chat logs, every single phone bill, dozens of sworn affidavits from friends/family, a highly detailed relationship time-line, list of beneficiary family living in the US, evidence of previous marriages (if any), proof of income, etc.

This can work in my opinion. He will just have to front-load like crazy. Being concerned about traveling to Vietnam is a legitimate concern and nobody can accuse you of being a coward for being a little bit worried/afraid. Like it or not, Vietnam IS a communist country and anything can happen. Just because you fell in love with somebody from Vietnam does not mean that you have to jeopardize your personal safety just to prove that you are a man and that you love her. Discuss this with your fiance and if she really loves you, she will understand your concern. Remember Carl, YOU are the one with the US Passport, not her. Take a look at the world around you and you will see there is alot of anti-Americanism going around.

In the end, I have been to Saigon and I never ran into any trouble. I was very nervous for my first ever trip to Vietnam but now I feel comfortable enough to go any time. Discuss with your fiance in detail where you both feel comfortable meeting each other and then put that plan into action. Nobody can judge you for being concerned. Think about it and make your decision. Best of lucky buddy

[michael7oanh 1]

In my 2 trips over there, the most dangerous things involved crossing the street (Motorbikes whizzing around me like crazy!) and then riding on the back of my brother-in-law's motorbike as someone almost rammed us. Aside from those issues, the people were friendly for the most part although I got lots of glances and stares from those that hadn't seen many darker foreigners before. The ones that actually approached me would simply want to practice their English or try to sell me something. So I'd say that it's pretty safe so long as you take a taxi/bus as your transportation and of course stick to the public areas.

It's good that you're getting all of this great advice from people early on in the visa petition process too. I wish I had known some of the risks of dealing with the HCMC consulate before applying as we might have prepared better. Seriously prepare well for the interview stage as we had overlooked some things with that and I think that is what mostly led to our visa denial. Also, you may want to take your time with the proposal/engagement ceremony planning. I proposed and had the engagement ceremony within my initial one-week vacation there, and the consulate of course used our rushed situation as evidence for denial (even though we had been e-mailing each other regularly for over a year prior to the visit). It's good that you have that evidence of meeting each other in Japan beforehand too.

Edited January 25, 2010 by michael7oanh

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

In my 2 trips over there, the most dangerous things involved crossing the street (Motorbikes whizzing around me like crazy!) and then riding on the back of my brother-in-law's motorbike as someone almost rammed us. Aside from those issues, the people were friendly for the most part although I got lots of glances and stares from those that hadn't seen many darker foreigners before. The ones that actually approached me would simply want to practice their English or try to sell me something. So I'd say that it's pretty safe so long as you take a taxi/bus as your transportation and of course stick to the public areas.

It's good that you're getting all of this great advice from people early on in the visa petition process too. I wish I had known some of the risks of dealing with the HCMC consulate before applying as we might have prepared better. Seriously prepare well for the interview stage as we had overlooked some things with that and I think that is what mostly led to our visa denial. Also, you may want to take your time with the proposal/engagement ceremony planning. I proposed and had the engagement ceremony within my initial one-week vacation there, and the consulate of course used our rushed situation as evidence for denial (even though we had been e-mailing each other regularly for over a year prior to the visit). It's good that you have that evidence of meeting each other in Japan beforehand too.

Welcome to VJ, Michael!

Sorry to hear about your bad luck in HCM. How long ago was this? Was your case sent back to USCIS? Of course, we'll help if possible.

I noticed there weren't a lot of black tourists in Vietnam. I notice in your photo that you have a very warm disarming smile. Next time you get any strange looks or stares, use your smile!