Divorce Papers Problem

[~Johnny~ 27]

lol

Okay so you need to remember approximate. Based on what you said:

1. what age were you when you married? Surely you remember whether you were late teens (i.e. 19, 20) or heading on up towards 30

2. you said you moved while she divorced you. Do you remember where to, or roughly when that was, or a friend that you met after you moved that could remember when you met them? Maybe check your credit history for the apartment you moved into?

3. On that vein, did you move in with your wife at the time? Do you remember where you were living? That'll give you a time frame from your moving out date

4. Was there ANYTHING you got together?

5. Do you remember what song was popular at the time? You could do a wiki search. Like personally, that friggen frog song... *shudder*... I remember that well :S

6. You were in a band, do you remember any gigs around the time? Or cd's or tapes you released?

Hope this helps to jog your memory

I got it close to the two year span of 1986-1987 and had clerks of court attempt search. Both parishes (counties) where I assume we had the wedding came up nada. These problems are epidemic nationwide in the divorce/marriage records. People really are clueless until they need an old document and find out like I did...ohhhh we don't really keep track of that stuff!! Not enough money in the budget and it's not a priority. Now, I think people here have gotten very technology "spoiled" in the past 15-20 years and can't believe the thought of there NOT being a database or electronic file system in place. People remember this was around 1986!! remember??? The IBM 286 with DOS was just released. Remember those 5 1/4" flexible floppies?? The internet was mostly text, not visual! 8 track tape decks were the thing not cassettes or CDs!! And NO ONE but the IRS and Defense department types were using huge databases....and they occupied large rooms for very little data storage when compared to today's standards. Now...take an archaic judicial process such as a county marriage license...20+ years ago....NO PDF pre-filled forms, no scanning, no database, just standard carbon paper forms...a court assigned number and eventually getting filed into some file cabinet for storage....never to be seen again. Fast forward 20 years.... somebody wants the clerk to go dig in the basement for a license and ....in reality the cabinets are disorganized...there is no "system" other than possibly filing by court numbers.and "maybe" a court legend for numbers..maybe not......not even filed by name....so...they can't just go to "B" and find Brock's divorce.... they have to thumb through hundreds of files..if the files are even there.....like I said one of my clerks mentioned a fire some 15-20 years ago.... soooooo if a company or government is searching for me... they will find addresses, birth records, previous occupations, tax records, loans, but not marriage records. I know we want to believe the government has super computers that you touch a button and poof instant everything but they don't. I worked in the Pentagon 8 years...and believe me they don't have special anything.

Not sure about the OP...but I barely remember my wedding...I was 19..I think we had it at her parents back yard. I think I got pretty drunk but hey it was the 80s....and today I'm a scientist and a non drinker...so things change.

So... I think someone mentioned asking USCIS.... No offense but yeah...like I don't know what the answer to that question is before I ask it. I'm not suggesting anything illegal and would never recommend it. The point is IF there are no records and nothing in the database then why list it only to be RFE'd for a document that may or may not exist? And the www.vitalrec.com site does not work for Louisiana.. as mentioned earlier... Louisiana is one of the states that DOES NOT maintain marriage/divorce records as vital records. I just remembered I tried that site as well but it found nothing in Louisiana because they have no marriage records...but they are the site to for birth certificates...and I got mine there. I have been working on this since....last summer....and have been in LOT's of circles. I even dug up my old Pentagon class 4 background investigation from 1998....and guess what... no marriage listed, and I was married then 2nd time in Alaska...another state that DOES NOT report marriage/divorce records. I'm not trying to be smart a... but this is quite frustrating... I know legal and I know insanity!!!

[Ladylethal 12]

I'm just saying that before there were computers, we had papers. In Brasil to this date you can't simply order a Birth Certificate official copy and have it printed out for you. We have one official document that we keep for ourselves and if we ever lose that one the court where it was registered will go through mounds and mounds of books of records to find your birth record and then issue a new official paper. It's the same for marriage and we brazilians know not to ever lose such papers.

So I figured that there would be something similar back when you first married, a book, a file cabinet somewhere that has all those old marriage records signed by the judge of said court, etc.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

You know this just reminds me of several things to tell my kids:

1. ALWAYS keep records of your immunisations / medical records;

2. Paperwork is important. Hold onto it. Now we have computers SCAN IT;

3. Keep track of everywhere you live (it took me AGES to get together that 10 year list for one of the forms, I moved a lot for Uni)

4. Voting is mandatory in Australia, so "change your address" with them (turns out I was "invalid" for 4 years. Usually they fine you but luckily they didn't.. maybe too many people to worry about)

I started a blog a while back (for myself) to keep track of things I've learnt that I wish I'd known when I was a kid. Silly stuff like what I want in a car, or other random stuff like that

With my immunisations, I had one at Uni, don't remember what date, no-one kept a record. Measles mumps and rubella it was. No record. UGH! Luckily my mother kept my baby book, and my home town still had my records from when I was a baby, and then in high school (around 95) when I had boosters. Saved me LOTS of money!

Ugh. If only we knew then right?

----

to the OP. I talked to my husband about your situation. He said if you've tried the clerk where you got married and they have no record, then it's likely it wasn't even legit. In Australia (and I thought here) that an address was needed in order to "serve" divorce papers so if you don't remember that, then could she really have filed for divorce? I know you can after a while of someone being "lost" but hmmm...

I am thinking that in the interest of honesty, that I would write a letter explaining your current situation as succinctly as possible to go in the file.

"Dear Sirs,

For the period of X - X I was involved with a woman called X.

We had a marriage ceremony around X of X "where a "friend" married us in their living room. I don't remember whether I received any official documents relating to that. (explain how it happened).

After finding out she "married" me for money, we separated and she was going to file for divorce.

After carrying out extensive searches and having spoken with the clerk at the court house (perhaps include a letter from them stating no record exists?) who advises no record of marriage exists, this leads me to conclude that our marriage was never official. I have also attempted to search for divorce records to no avail and have attempted to locate my ex but after so many years I have no idea of her current name or location. As it was so long ago I remember little about her.

Following my relationship with her, I re-married X and subsequently divorced in X, documentation of which is enclosed."

Something like that. Or ignore it altogether. However if anything is found, then you might get into trouble and the letter shows you were trying to be honest. However if you honestly believe that it never "really" happened then you're not lying. Someone lied to you years ago and luckily you got out unscathed (hopefully).

Also, you could write an email to them seeking their advice in the same sort of form, and then keep that email, and that reply as evidence of you being honest.

Maybe even the email could be simple like:

"I believed I married someone around X of X.

I say "believed" because the ceremony was in their lounge-room and a friend who was apparently a pastor. After extensive searches, including at the courts where the marriage would have been registered, I am unable to find any record of it. My ex was going to file for divorce for default judgement however I can find no record of that either.

What can I do in this situation? I now do not believe that this prior "marriage" actually was official however I don't want to mislead USCIS.

I have been married and subsequently divorced since then, and I have the marriage licence and divorce decree to submit with my application."

Whether you do it "quietly" or you tell them your info so they can keep the email on file (like when i was running late for my interview) is up to you.

Good luck!

Edited January 6, 2010 by Vanessa&Tony

[MRStee 19]

You know this just reminds me of several things to tell my kids:

1. ALWAYS keep records of your immunisations / medical records;

2. Paperwork is important. Hold onto it. Now we have computers SCAN IT;

3. Keep track of everywhere you live (it took me AGES to get together that 10 year list for one of the forms, I moved a lot for Uni)

4. Voting is mandatory in Australia, so "change your address" with them (turns out I was "invalid" for 4 years. Usually they fine you but luckily they didn't.. maybe too many people to worry about)

I started a blog a while back (for myself) to keep track of things I've learnt that I wish I'd known when I was a kid. Silly stuff like what I want in a car, or other random stuff like that

With my immunisations, I had one at Uni, don't remember what date, no-one kept a record. Measles mumps and rubella it was. No record. UGH! Luckily my mother kept my baby book, and my home town still had my records from when I was a baby, and then in high school (around 95) when I had boosters. Saved me LOTS of money!

Ugh. If only we knew then right?

----

to the OP. I talked to my husband about your situation. He said if you've tried the clerk where you got married and they have no record, then it's likely it wasn't even legit. In Australia (and I thought here) that an address was needed in order to "serve" divorce papers so if you don't remember that, then could she really have filed for divorce? I know you can after a while of someone being "lost" but hmmm...

I am thinking that in the interest of honesty, that I would write a letter explaining your current situation as succinctly as possible to go in the file.

"Dear Sirs,

For the period of X - X I was involved with a woman called X.

We had a marriage ceremony around X of X "where a "friend" married us in their living room. I don't remember whether I received any official documents relating to that. (explain how it happened).

After finding out she "married" me for money, we separated and she was going to file for divorce.

After carrying out extensive searches and having spoken with the clerk at the court house (perhaps include a letter from them stating no record exists?) who advises no record of marriage exists, this leads me to conclude that our marriage was never official. I have also attempted to search for divorce records to no avail and have attempted to locate my ex but after so many years I have no idea of her current name or location. As it was so long ago I remember little about her.

Following my relationship with her, I re-married X and subsequently divorced in X, documentation of which is enclosed."

Something like that. Or ignore it altogether. However if anything is found, then you might get into trouble and the letter shows you were trying to be honest. However if you honestly believe that it never "really" happened then you're not lying. Someone lied to you years ago and luckily you got out unscathed (hopefully).

Also, you could write an email to them seeking their advice in the same sort of form, and then keep that email, and that reply as evidence of you being honest.

Maybe even the email could be simple like:

"I believed I married someone around X of X.

I say "believed" because the ceremony was in their lounge-room and a friend who was apparently a pastor. After extensive searches, including at the courts where the marriage would have been registered, I am unable to find any record of it. My ex was going to file for divorce for default judgement however I can find no record of that either.

What can I do in this situation? I now do not believe that this prior "marriage" actually was official however I don't want to mislead USCIS.

I have been married and subsequently divorced since then, and I have the marriage licence and divorce decree to submit with my application."

Whether you do it "quietly" or you tell them your info so they can keep the email on file (like when i was running late for my interview) is up to you.

Good luck!

I like this idea!

[~Johnny~ 27]

Something like that. Or ignore it altogether. However if anything is found, then you might get into trouble and the letter shows you were trying to be honest. However if you honestly believe that it never "really" happened then you're not lying. Someone lied to you years ago and luckily you got out unscathed (hopefully).

Hey isn't that the George Canstanza of Sienfeld's Lie Detector strategy??? "It's not a lie if you believe it's true"

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

I would be scared sh*tless to spend many years in prison, not only for bigamy but also for stating at your second marriage that you were not married before when in fact you were. If not, you would have been required to produce divorce papers. And now you are trying for number three. Wow!

[~Johnny~ 27]

I would be scared sh*tless to spend many years in prison, not only for bigamy but also for stating at your second marriage that you were not married before when in fact you were. If not, you would have been required to produce divorce papers. And now you are trying for number three. Wow!

NO ONE ever said that we stated we were not married before on ANY license....to the contrary. I stated yes on mine....and Stated my status as divorced. NEVER was asked for anything else!! Not EVERYONE has a rosy life! With white picket fence and wife of 40 yrs! So, this is now a judge you forum by number of marriages??? And I've never really seen or read of anyone go to prison for many years for making a mistake on an I-129F form.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

NO ONE ever said that we stated we were not married before on ANY license....to the contrary. I stated yes on mine....and Stated my status as divorced. NEVER was asked for anything else!! Not EVERYONE has a rosy life! With white picket fence and wife of 40 yrs! So, this is now a judge you forum by number of marriages??? And I've never really seen or read of anyone go to prison for many years for making a mistake on an I-129F form.

Ignore Bob, he's just a little "quirky" of late but occasionally there is wisdom when you look past the sarcasm.

He's not saying you will go to jail for filling in the 129 form wrong, so much as being charged for being a bigamist, which is a jailable offense (I believe). Bob's statement however is flawed in you are not sure if you actually WERE married, but I have to be honest, I am surprised you didn't confirm she filed for divorce. Some people are lazy (her I mean). Maybe it cost too much.. but I definitely would have checked at the time. But again, as you have stated, you were young, you were foolish and things happen.

How much searching you do is up to you, but if you look at it as you stated in the original post, you WERE married, and you neither have proof of that, OR of the divorce. So, the only way to know for sure, is to seek out your ex, or pony up the money to have a PI look for her, or your marriage/divorce records.

What exactly does your lawyer say? (I believe you said you mentioned another divorce but he nixed that idea) I honestly am just shocked that each STATE at least doesn't have a central database. This is not a judgement of you, just.. wow. Someone above my post mentioned "nunc pro tunc petition" and the Vital record petition. It sucks, but the prices we pay for poor judgement years ago. I'm still waiting for mine (think it might be my school loans ) Good luck!

Edited January 6, 2010 by Vanessa&Tony

[~Johnny~ 27]

Ignore Bob, he's just a little "quirky" of late but occasionally there is wisdom when you look past the sarcasm.

He's not saying you will go to jail for filling in the 129 form wrong, so much as being charged for being a bigamist, which is a jailable offense (I believe). Bob's statement however is flawed in you are not sure if you actually WERE married, but I have to be honest, I am surprised you didn't confirm she filed for divorce. Some people are lazy (her I mean). Maybe it cost too much.. but I definitely would have checked at the time. But again, as you have stated, you were young, you were foolish and things happen.

How much searching you do is up to you, but if you look at it as you stated in the original post, you WERE married, and you neither have proof of that, OR of the divorce. So, the only way to know for sure, is to seek out your ex, or pony up the money to have a PI look for her, or your marriage/divorce records.

What exactly does your lawyer say? (I believe you said you mentioned another divorce but he nixed that idea) I honestly am just shocked that each STATE at least doesn't have a central database. This is not a judgement of you, just.. wow. Someone above my post mentioned "nunc pro tunc petition" and the Vital record petition. It sucks, but the prices we pay for poor judgement years ago. I'm still waiting for mine (think it might be my school loans ) Good luck!

Hey thanks for the encouragement. Yeah I agree... Bigamy is jailable offense in most states... and agree with his statement regarding that. But I never lied on my 2nd marriage and just assumed, as the OP said...that they had a national registry checked it up and all was good, hence the 10 day waiting period (not like 5 minute wait in Vegas...which by the way...Nevada DOES participate in the national database..go figure). The state of Alaska never said..."hey we need a decree" so I figured they must have it in their computer.. But it boils down to for me is a possible Louisiana justice of the peace in someone's backyard. And Louisiana JoP's are the most corrupt in the nation....I have to even question that since the county clerk has no record of marriage or divorce... that maybe it wasn't validated in the first place. How do we know when we sign those papers that the JoP takes your $50 dollars and actually does anything with those papers?? He knows they go into a file cabinet NEVER to be seen again... Yeah... I was shocked as well to find that my marriage of 13 years in Alaska has no record in national databases. It really changes my perception of how things work in the US. I read stories of guys having wives in different states and always wondered....How the F... can they do that??? Wouldn't they get immediate Whoa when they run the license application???? and see he has 5 other marriages??? well depends on which state.

[ABENITEZ 0]

Ok, its obvious you don't know anything about your first divorce, we've established that. I think you can search for 10 years and you wont find what your looking for. Have you even tried to call USCIS and discuss this? Can you make an infopass appointment so you can talk face to face with a CO? I mean maybe they can come up with better answers than anyone since the only reason you need the divorce papers is for the USCIS. Really I would recommend getting in touch with them before you continue searching for the needle in the haystack. Good luck buddy...

[nlovewithher 0]

to the OP. I talked to my husband about your situation. He said if you've tried the clerk where you got married and they have no record, then it's likely it wasn't even legit. In Australia (and I thought here) that an address was needed in order to "serve" divorce papers so if you don't remember that, then could she really have filed for divorce? I know you can after a while of someone being "lost" but hmmm...

Ok first off I think there is a little confusion here. There are two people in this thread who have a similar situation here. Myself and duplantisjj.

In my case I am seeking NOT to lie but preferably find the divorce decree that I know beyond any doubt exists somewhere.

I have no doubt there IS a marriage license. I signed it, that I remember. Pretending its invalid because some old woman in the clerk’s office can’t find it is simply not an option to me and seems as risky as lying. I know both items DO exist.

Also in many states including mine it is possible to file a divorce petition and without knowing the location of the respondent. I actually mentioned this as one of the most likely options. What I was concerned about in doing that was the date of the decree could invalidate by second marriage and divorce as my lawyer had warned me.

With the possible retroactive option available that is now what I am pursuing and can probably have a decree in hand soon.

[nlovewithher 0]

Hey isn't that the George Canstanza of Sienfeld's Lie Detector strategy??? "It's not a lie if you believe it's true"

I agree that’s why I had been seeking a way to find the decree that I KNOW does exist. I do not want to lie about it.

[nlovewithher 0]

I would be scared sh*tless to spend many years in prison, not only for bigamy but also for stating at your second marriage that you were not married before when in fact you were. If not, you would have been required to produce divorce papers. And now you are trying for number three. Wow!

Ok first off I think there is a little confusion here. There are two people in this thread who have a similar situation here. Myself and duplantisjj.

In my case I am seeking NOT to lie but preferably find the divorce decree that I know beyond any doubt exists somewhere.

Ok, I once again KNOW that both the marriage and the divorce occurred. Where the records are have been the problem. I have never had a fear of bigamy being at issue because I do know the decree exists somewhere.

Even if I were to assume that the people who think there is no decree might be right in my state you must be aware that there was no decree and be within a matter of a few years for bigamy to be applicable. I looked into if that was a possible repercussion of my filing for divorce on the first marriage now and having the decree dates wrong. It isn’t even a remote possibility. Even if I had been aware the statute of limitations had expired many years ago.

I was never asked to provide any divorce papers, and did not lie about any previous marriage.

By the way, thanks for the insult, don’t worry I expected some of it.

Yes, I did a stupid thing in getting married the first time. I admit that. The marriage was a sham. I thought she was cute and ok. Was young and stupid enough to think that was enough reason to marry. Simply put I married for the sex. Let’s not pretend that I am the only one stupid enough to have done that once. The first marriage should have never happened.

The second was a good woman and is still a good friend. It just didn’t work out. She was 19 when I married her and around 30 discovered she never lived a life of her own. She married me too young; she grew to become a different person than she was at 19. I love her as a friend; I get along with her current BF. She isn’t evil just because she grew up. The second wasn’t an outright mistake. It was a legitimate marriage, with kids and the works.

As for number 3… as you call it.

She has a complete sense of who she is. She is indeed a little younger than me, but more mature than any woman I have dated who is my age.

The sex is grate and she is beautiful, but that’s not why I love her.

It’s because when I wake up and have a morning cup of coffee and look out over the balcony it feels wrong without her. It’s because I giggle like a school boy at the simplest things she does. It’s because I find wowwowwee the most annoying TV show in the world, but I will sit through every second just to hear her laugh. It’s because a dirty run down city like Davao looks like paradise because she’s in it. It’s because she has a smile so pure it can make you cry. It’s because she points at things with her lips and I have no idea at what and want to know. It’s because she eats rice with EVERYTHING, and I don’t like rice, but boy rice with her tastes good. It’s because she puts hotdogs in her spaghetti and it tastes like maple syrup. It’s because she sings, not just karaoke, but without any music at all. It’s because she can drag my butt to church every Sunday and I don’t mind. It’s because she got me in the habit of saying aircon, comfort room, and open the light and no one knows what I mean anymore. It’s because she picks up things with her feet. It’s because she makes silly faces. It’s because she looks cute eating a half formed duck egg. It’s because I have hundreds of new family and friends who I can barely remember their names but love them all as my own. It’s because Jollibee tastes strange but I still go because she like it more than McDonalds.

People I hear are constantly worried about the interview. Give us the interview, no worries there.

I talk to her every day for at least 7 or 8 hours a day, for a year now. How many couples do you know can sit at a table, no TV, no dinner, just each other and just talk for that long every day and not be bored. I can with her until the end of time itself.

I know her schools she went to, he old friends, coworkers, even her ex boyfriends. Think she don’t know me? She don’t need to ask what I’m thinking most of the time, she knows, but she still asks.

And her family, fantastic people. While I hear people saying they aren’t trusted or accepted, not me. If her dad wasn’t her dad he would defiantly be the best man. Sisters, brother, grandma, all of us get along perfect.

You know how people SAY they would die for her, sort of thing? How many really mean it. I know I do.

Now you tell me.

Yep, the first should have never been. The second should have been a friend.

So it took me three tries to get it right. Don’t think it’s real scr*w you.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

O.P.,

you are upset, and I understand that, but it's time for you to look beyond the smoke of a man in love.

1) You do NOT know that you are divorced from your first wife. You have never been served, you have seen zero paperwork, you have not spoken to her since. There is in fact nothing remotely establishing that your wife did divorce you in absentia. You might as well be still married to your first wife. Very well.

2) You married again the second time, stating formally that you are divorced, when in fact that's not even established to this day. There are more legal implications to this than "just" a possible bigamy charge. Your second marriage may need to be declared invalid, with implications reaching into tax law (filed married, yet single) and social security.

3) Now you are aiming for marriage #3 and trying to do the right thing, hoping to confirm what you want to believe so badly. Good. There are only two approaches to this:

a . You will not get married again and hope that your hunch maybe right, do what the 3 wise monkeys do.

b. You absolutely want to get married again, even if as a convicted criminal, and contact a professional (divorce attorney/private detective) and get to the bottom of this, no matter the outcome.

I'm sorry if this distorts the happy picture, but possible bigamy is a serious enough to give you a wake-up call, no matter how much this may inconvenience you. It's not only about you, it's also about the women whose lives you change forever.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Just Bob

[fbibob 0]

I'm not a legal expert (or even amateur) but what about paying for a credit check on her social security number? It is likely to come up with the history of her credit card use, and you will know from this where she lives. At least this might be a start to discovering where she (maybe) got re-married if she did.

Reading between the lines, my guess is you do not want to have to talk to her and would like to do this without communicating with her. You also probably do not want to talk to her mother; but she may be the only path you have to finding the daughter if she does not turn up in some other way.

Also, don't ignore the possibility that she is no longer alive. Do what you can with the SSN and it may direct you to the obits; this will obviously clear you with immigration.

As a last option, submit the papers with both marriages listed, and no divorce decree papers from the first one. Then wait to see if they send you an RFE and give them an honest answer if they do.