The cat rant and rave

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

[mox 298]

I'd be careful calling anything "ridiculous" when you are: 1. Not a Russian woman and 2. You don't understand Russian culture and traditions...much of it centering on the Orthodox Church...the same one as today which advocated for a husband to control his wife by the whip.

And you are qualified...how exactly? If you're going by these qualifications, you should probably listen to what ekee has said on this very topic in the past. She meets both of your qualifications and then some.

Here's another piece i found about the Russian wife beating tradition:

I'll source this for you: http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h20russ3.htm

This article has no citations by the way (it only recommends "further reading") but is categorized in the "16-17th Century Index." The followup article to this is "Beginnings of the Romanov Dynasty." We're not just talking pre-revolutionary, we're talking early Czarist Russia.

During the period being covered by your article, 400-500 years ago, probably 95% of the woman on the planet expected to be beaten on a regular basis. Things change, even in Russia, especially over the course of 400-500 years.

Domestic abuse may be more prevalent in Russia, and there may be a long history behind it, but calling it a "tradition" and making the assumption that women just expect it and get on with their lives is ignorant at best, and hopeful at worst.

[SMR 368]

I'd be careful calling anything "ridiculous" when you are: 1. Not a Russian woman and 2. You don't understand Russian culture and traditions...much of it centering on the Orthodox Church...the same one as today which advocated for a husband to control his wife by the whip.

The Church has a somewhat limited effect on all Russians as many are now non believers but the effect remains wide scale...especially in the smaller cities, towns and rural villages beyond Moscow or St. Petersburg. In many ways life is still that of peasants in many areas. And Russians, IMO, hold unto their old ways far more than we Americans do. Look at the many goofy traditions our wives bring over with them...and their superstitions we find archaic.

If every wife in a village has her husband whip her, and that is the norm and the way of the villagers, then a woman will expect to be whipped and move on with her life. It's not about liking or disliking, it's about living within the rules and the traditions one is surrounded by.

We arrogant Americans think our ways are the best ways and the rest of the world are barbarians...so we inflict our ways, our norm, mores, and values on them and they quickly reject them. The world is full of cultures that beat their wives...probably worst in the Middle East and African areas...but Asia has its traditions of wife abuse also.

Here's another piece i found about the Russian wife beating tradition:

The Status of Russian Women

In Russia, the husbands and wives of common people were closer than were the husbands and wives of the upper classes. Christian tradition among the Russians held them to the belief that a husband had authority over his wife, and it was common for a religiously devout husband to discipline his wife by beating her. But among common folks a husband and wife were likely to be friends, and to remain friends despite the beatings. Wives, as devout if not more so than their husbands, might expect an occasional beating, and some husbands who beat their wife might ask for her forgiveness. A husband and wife were in need of each other, struggling as they were to survive. They laughed and cried together. They bathed together, and they ate together with other couples of their small community -- especially in winter, when they entertained themselves by getting drunk together.

The upper classes were more inclined to follow the cultural tradition inherited from the Eastern Orthodox Christianity from Constantinople and keep males and females apart from each other. In upper class families boys and girls were segregated. The tradition from Constantinople held women inferior, as more childlike and simple than men and, given the opportunity, as wicked as the original Eve. Girls were kept locked behind doors and taught prayer and household skills such as embroidery. While still adolescents, girls might be married to someone the father had decided was appropriate -- after negotiations involving dowry size and assurances that the girl was a virgin. The father would order the girl to stand with him and be introduced to her husband-to-be. It was common for a little ceremony to follow. The father would touch his daughter's back with a coiled whip and say that she would now be free of his authority but that he was passing that authority to her future husband who, in his stead, would admonish her with this same whip, which he then gave to the husband-to-be. Carrying on the ritual, the husband-to-be declared that he believed that he would have no need to use the whip, and he attached it to his belt.

In the wedding ceremony, the young bride pledged fidelity to her husband. They exchanged rings. They were blessed by the Church, and the bride touched her forehead to her husband's shoes as a gesture of her subjugation. Then the groom covered his bride with the hem of his coat, symbolizing his obligation to support and protect her. Immediately they went to a nuptial bedroom while the wedding guests partied. The groom was given two hours. Then the guests, in accordance with tradition, burst into the bedroom, and upon hearing confirmation that the girl had been a virgin all cheered and continued their celebration.

The bride then went on to a life without rights except through the husband, just as she had had no rights except through her father. It was her duty to see to her husband's comfort and to bear his children. If the wife of an upperclass man was disobedient he might beat her. A work dating back to 1556, called The Household Management Code, attributed to a monk named Sylvester, advised that a disobedient wife should be whipped, with politeness rather than anger, and in secret. If a women turned on a husband she might try to kill him to protect herself, and if she succeeded and was prosecuted for it punishment was commonly burial up to the neck and being left to die.

So, you think there are Russian women who think their husbands don't beat them enough? Or are you simply suggesting that a Russian woman will leave you if you don't beat her enough?

[visaveteran 1]

Concerning the forum men bashing or demeaning American women, here is what I have to say.

I think less of American women, in general, since being exposed to Russian women. Meeting Russian women for the first time was like time traveling back perhaps a century in American history. The old ways were not old in Russia, they were relevant to the "here and now."

If a man has been brainwashed to believe the hardcore feminist line (Mox, are you listening?), then he must dislike himself and bow to the great earth mother and tow the feminist line. No flirting except in very limited situations. Women should not "dress for men" (i.e., high heels, sexy dresses and skirts, low cut blouses, etc.). Yeah, it's maybe OK to hold the door or pick up the dinner tab but that's where old school ends.

I see young couples going out on the weekend and both the man and the woman look like they're going camping. Someone shoot Levi Strauss. But what is going on is it's hard to tell any difference between the dress of the man and the woman. Unisex. Equality...they both look equally like sh!t. The lowest common denominator got lower. Russian women would not run out to buy milk looking like that. Unisex equals gender role confusion. Who is whom? Who's on first? Who's on top? And what was once about gender cooperation has mutated into gedner competition...as in the work place, the military, the police force, etc.

And it is about a prevailing attitude that women are owed something in the US. Men need to pay reparations Women have embraced victim-hood and act as the minority when in truth they are in the majority. The reason men still dominate many areas of US life is that women don't like women...or trust them. Hillary Clinton could not beat Obama when she had every opportunity and advantage to win. America trusts a black man more than a white woman. I find that telling.

And the bedroom is the real battleground...where the greatest power struggle takes place. American women see sex as a power chip in the game of life...the feminist marching orders...control by withhold.

Here is where Russian women really kick a**. Sex is sex...not a bargaining chip or a means to punish or reward your man (control by withhold). Show me a man with a great sex life and I'll show you a happy, fulfilled and good husband. Good energy begets good energy. When there is giving, there is also receiving, and the natural balance of the masculine and the feminine is restored.

Russian women work very hard to be women. American women try very hard to be man-like in too many areas of life. It's hard to turn off the hardcore feminist inner masculine style of being, and suddenly go to the bedroom and act like a feminine woman. That switch is not easy to throw.

[HannahP 119]

I know I sound like an @$$hole to all the trolling, independent, liberated and modern "visitors" we get here (julianna excluded, of course!) but it is a fact. If you allow your wife to set the tone for the rest of your marriage with her childish, immature, selfish, bullshit shenanigans, she will eventually run you into the ground. The last thing you want to be with your FSU wife is the b!tch. And I don't mean showing your feminine side, I mean washing another man's drawers "pressed or starched?" b!tch.

The more concessions you make, the more you wobble on your opinion, the more you allow her to make up your mind for you... the more she's going to do it and eventually, you're going to be her b!tch. And when you are, she'll have absolutely zero respect left for you and instead of being (secretly) happy with her @$$hole husband, she'll be forced to look elsewhere for happiness.

I guess I come off as trolling but I've been around VJ for many years & have always (in the past) enjoyed the RU forum. I like learning about the quirks of other cultures, and this is often a recurring theme in the RU forum. (MENA, too, which I also enjoy reading for that same reason.) Ya'all have always had your share of anti-American women hating men. Hell, I totally get the desire to have a traditional marriage and even the idea that you have to go overseas to find the right bride. But it seems like this entire forum, which used to be so diverse in its opinions, has been taken over by people like VV who advocate beating their wives. Shouldn't variety be the spice of life? The bitterness makes me sad because I remember the way this forum used to be.

However, my main argument is that YOUR argument goes both ways. I have a man that does not even nominally cook, clean, or take care of himself. When we were originally living together, he did his fair share. But during the wait for his gc/ead, where I was working full-time, going to school full-time, and also taking care of the house and cooking everything -- I should have put my foot down somewhere. I now have a man who has gained 100+ lbs (yes, even overweight men are capable of looking gross), refuses to even boil water, and crows for weeks because he took out the garbage once. And I married a liberated, feminist Canadian man.

This whole subforum has become its own little enclave with posters acting like their thoughts/ideas/actions are somehow different because they married a RU woman. That's not true.

[HannahP 119]

Concerning the forum men bashing or demeaning American women, here is what I have to say.

You seem very intent on what you perceive that MEN want from a woman -- but what about what a woman wants from her own life?

My mother grew up in the environment that you think is "best"...where most women were shuffled away into the private life of caring for their husbands and children. My mother received excellent grades but was not allowed into Honors classes because she was a girl. Instead, she received a "woman's" education in HomEc, sewing, etc. One of my most prominent memories about growing up was how my mom could not go anywhere without spending at least an hour doing her make-up. She refused to allow herself to be seen in public without her "mask" of woman-hood.

Fast forward to someone like me and any of my potential daughters. Feminism for me has always been about opportunity. I want the choices that my mother didn't have. I want my daughter to take advanced science and math classes if she wants to. I don't want to pre-assigned to a future of raising children because of my gender. I want the freedom to choose what I should or shouldn't not wear when I go grocery shopping.

That doesn't mean that there aren't women out there who want a more traditional role. No real feminist would begrudge these women what they want in life -- because they are CHOOSING what they want.

Empathy is a great thing.

[visaveteran 1]

If you track back to the original points I made about Russian women, it was that they like strong, assertive men, and protective men. They like a man to be the boss, the decision maker and keep them safe. This tradition, in many ways, is church based, and it really doesn't matter how far back you go, church traditions and teachings carry through to modern times...that's why we still celebrate Christmas and Easter. That's why the church still tells us how a man should treat his wife.

Does anyone here think things changed for the better for women under Lenin or Stalin? Stalin sent any woman who refused to sleep with to a Siberian prison. And he was notorious for enjoying beating his lovers as his favorite "foreplay." Does anyone think the peasant culture leaped into the 20th Century under communism?

I am an American man and never raised my voice to my ex wife or son, much less hurt them. Never. End of story. But I did, IMO, act like a man, not a house boy who waited for my next set of orders. Being the boss or leader does not require violence, but strength of character and will. But I am an American and that is my way. Russia is Russia and has different ways. If the men and women accept it, so be it. Who am I to arrogantly condemn their ways.

I have been a very harsh critic of Russian men and in doing so, many of the forum choir chimed in that I was being too harsh and unfair to them. That they are not a bunch of wife abusing drunks and cheaters (still my basic viewpoint). Now I hear the moral poice singing a different tune. I also have heard many men say how great the Russian culture is and even want to live there it's so great. Now I hear the culture is anti-women and abusive in its traditions and cultural behaviors between the sexes.

Which is it boys and girls?

[HannahP 119]

^ What would you do if your hypothetical daughter wanted to become a doctor? Or a police officer? Or a lawyer? What if she preferred wearing jeans to skirts?

[Martyshk 137]

You know, one thing I noticed about all of this...the whole convo thingy here: you are talking about russian (and ukranian) women and how they are, but in fact, I don't believe anyone involved in this discussion is (and I might be mistaken too):

1. russian/ukranian

2. russian/ukranian woman

3. has lived in russia/ukraine for about 10-20 years, including the Soviet Union times

So how about this - stop making assumptions and sh~t, lot of what you guys are saying is empty rhetoric.

[baron555 934]

That's a personal attack. I won't tolerate that level of insult again. Mods should have a heads up if it continues.

See.....all this trouble caused by one little cat. That's why I don't like them (they are cute when they are kittens) and why I am a dog person.

I did bring over their little dog but my RW ate all the cost since that was her last minute decision (we were planning on bringing the dog over next summer).

And.....the little princess does expect me to wait on her hand and paw and even wants to kick me out of my own bed.

So, yes, the Russian Female is VERY DEMANDING !!!!!!!!!

[mox 298]

That's a personal attack. I won't tolerate that level of insult again. Mods should have a heads up if it continues.

LOL.

I too think you're bitter. I'll go one better and say you're a misogynist who paints the world with the widest possible brush in order to justify his very narrow world view.

Report button's on your left.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

You know, one thing I noticed about all of this...the whole convo thingy here: you are talking about russian (and ukranian) women and how they are, but in fact, I don't believe anyone involved in this discussion is (and I might be mistaken too):

1. russian/ukranian

2. russian/ukranian woman

3. has lived in russia/ukraine for about 10-20 years, including the Soviet Union times

So how about this - stop making assumptions and sh~t, lot of what you guys are saying is empty rhetoric.

You left out "Belarusian"

[HannahP 119]

LOL.

I too think you're bitter. I'll go one better and say you're a misogynist who paints the world with the widest possible brush in order to justify his very narrow world view.

Report button's on your left.

[visaveteran 1]

Mox, good for you. Sit comfortably and in the full safety of your computer room and run off at the mouth about me to your heart's content...you funny little left winger, you.

I have no issue with you because I've seen your many many posts and expect you're omnipotent view of things. Your self-righteousness. Your quick to judge biases. And I have gone at it with you enough to be immune to you. And you had the self-discipline to not imply I hurt my wife and family, or involve them in this discussion.

An outsider, drive by cheap shot artist, has not earned the right to call me insults and imply I hurt my wife. That's way over the line and I will report it if it happens again. That's a promise.

[visaveteran 1]

You know, one thing I noticed about all of this...the whole convo thingy here: you are talking about russian (and ukranian) women and how they are, but in fact, I don't believe anyone involved in this discussion is (and I might be mistaken too):

1. russian/ukranian

2. russian/ukranian woman

3. has lived in russia/ukraine for about 10-20 years, including the Soviet Union times

So how about this - stop making assumptions and sh~t, lot of what you guys are saying is empty rhetoric.

That's hard to argue with, and you are the current leading representative of Russian men on the forum. You are the expert.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the state of things between men and women in today's Russian culture...especially with interest in women who lived under communism and outside the Moscow or St. Petersburg areas. I ask this in the context of the current discussion.

Can you help us less informed posters? I'd really like to hear from you.