Pictures as evidence

[aussiewench 9]

There is no way that anyone on this website will ever convince me that submitting a photo of my fiancee and I at our engagement party together with her family around us will not have some knd of impact on the offical looking at it. I had to prove that the pic was taking in the last 2 years with plane tickets and hotel receipts, by the 3 photos i sent of us at that party are very good evidence of our relationship. And if the embassy officer looks at htose pics before he sees my fiancee for her interview then i am certain it will positively influence him.

There is absolutely no way that anyone will tell my that photographic evidence is not helpful. No way.

Note my post above yours re evidence of intent that may also be submitted. Also, as yodrak stated 'a helpful addition to other evidence as part of a total package' What many members are concerned about is the erroneous belief that photographic evidence is the be all and end all and too much of the submitted evidence being focused on such. The MOST important thing is other strong documentation and if one has photographic evidence to help form the complete picture then by all means. Members should not forgo other evidence by including an abundance of photos which without other strong documentary evidence is inviting an RFE. They should also not forgo evidence of having met within the two year requirement to weigh the petition down with evidence of an ongoing relationship.

I agree there are members getting denials when it appears that Conofs have already made their mind up as to the bona fide of the relationship. From what I have noted many are also T7 countries. I do wonder though in many of these situations just how much evidence of an ongoing relationship was included with the initial package..perhaps too much. As for high fraud countries, it can prove beneficial to include some evidence of an ongoing relationship in order to show the bona fide of the relationship. The key here though IMO is selective evidence. Evidence that will give a strong case without including evidence that may be misinterpreted by a Conof. This has been discussed a lot in the past with varying opinions. But mostly we all in agreeance that there are exceptions as to what is required by various embassies and this should influence what one submits to USCIS with the initial petition.

aussiewench,

The two items that I mentioned are separate and distict from the photographs as evidence issue - OT from the point of view of this thread, but interesting and worthwhile in their own right.

edited for space

I take your point

Lorelle

Edited February 16, 2006 by aussiewench

[john_and_marlene 162]

Just as a photograph may not be proof of when you met, boarding passes and visa stamps don't prove that you acutally did meet...they just show you were there. The combination of the two types of evidence is certainly more compelling than either one alone.

[aussiewench 9]

Just as a photograph may not be proof of when you met, boarding passes and visa stamps don't prove that you acutally did meet...they just show you were there. The combination of the two types of evidence is certainly more compelling than either one alone.

That though would depend on all the other evidence, not just the passport stamps and boarding passes. If one does not have photographic evidence it is unlikely to be denied as long as all the primary evidence is there to proove having met within the required period. I'm not going to disagree with you though as one or two photographs in many instances can be that extra oomph a petition may need. Just no need to weigh it down with masses of them.

[maya62 7]

Maya,

Keep in mind that petition processing by the USCIS and visa application processing at a consulate are two separate and distinct things, some different issues are involved.

Yodrak

...

Imho, photos can only help. We got our petition approved with only 3 photos (and lots of other evidence: boarding passes, visas, credit card statements showing payment for airline tickets, itineraries, etc...), but when my fiance dropped packet 3 off at the (high fraud Asian) consulate, he was told to come back TOMORROW for your interview and bring more pictures!! Fortunately we had a few more.

...

Maya

Yes, I understand. That's why I listed the other evidence we submitted with the petition, since the OP is asking about the petition phase. I understand the petition must show proof they have met in the 2 year window, and photos are only one piece of the puzzle, and likely optional. I think I read at least a couple of year's worth of those denials that Aussiewench is reading.

I guess my point was that photos can serve an important purpose down the road at the time of the interview, and since perhaps with the OP, as with many long-distance couples, photo ops together may be few and far between, they should probably take advantage of their current opportunity. Even if they don't use any photos for their petition, they are likely to find that they come in very handy at the Consulate.

I understand it is important to be clear about what varying role photos can play during the various phases of the process, but I can't imagine anyone advising NOT to take photos if there is an opportunity (even if it takes a little extra effort... like asking a stranger to take your picture at Walmart... lol).

Just trying to be helpful...

Maya

[john_and_marlene 162]

I understand it is important to be clear about what varying role photos can play during the various phases of the process, but I can't imagine anyone advising NOT to take photos if there is an opportunity (even if it takes a little extra effort... like asking a stranger to take your picture at Walmart... lol).

Waiters/waitresses always seem willing to take a picture for us ... we've never been turned down. They are even more eager if tipping is customary and you haven't paid the bill yet

[Yodrak 7]

Robert,

I think that aussiewench's response was on target - establishing that a fiance(e) relationship exists. I think that establishing the relationship is the primary issue, and that the fact of having met in person within the most recent two years arises from that primary issue.

My sense is - and I may be wrong about it - that the 2-step petition and visa application process may be viewed as something akin to taking a case to a grand jury for an indictment before going to trial. The petition to the USCIS is the grand jury, and establishes that there are reasonable grounds to taking the case to trial. The trial is the visa application at the consulate, and determines whether or not the person is 'quilty as charged'. (And AOS and removal of conditions are appeals processes? Which can drag on for years?

Prosecutors generally present only a portion of their evidence to the grand jury - just enough to get the indictment? But the analogy ends there.

Yodrak

Maya,

Keep in mind that petition processing by the USCIS and visa application processing at a consulate are two separate and distinct things, some different issues are involved.

Yodrak

Yodrak, I like something you said in another thread concerning the primary criteria for getting a visa. You said "the visa applicant has to be admissable to the US and the relationship, whether it's pre-marriage or post-marriage, has to be bona fide (i.e. not for the purpose of evading US immigration law)."

What would you say is the primary criteria for getting the I-129F approved, other than proof of meeting withing the last two years? Does proving there is a bona fide relationship come into play at this point?

Robert

[*Robert* 2]

Just as a photograph may not be proof of when you met, boarding passes and visa stamps don't prove that you acutally did meet...they just show you were there. The combination of the two types of evidence is certainly more compelling than either one alone.

That's why I like the proof I submitted. My fiancee and I took several trips together, flying three different times. That way I was able to submit copies of our boarding passes, with our names, dates, and seat numbers right next to each other. If you ask me, that is pretty solid proof of having been together, and when exactly we were together!

As for getting pictures taken, we would go to public places, like the zoo, or tourist attractions, and ask passers-by to take our photo, just like the one I'm using for my avitar. We had a complete stranger take that picture!

[Yodrak 7]

ryecatcher,

I seriously doubt that many people know what went on in the consular officer's mind as they reviewed the case file that came from the USA and the materials that were submitted prior to the interview. Or that they know what things the consular officers are trained to look for - both in general and specific to the particular post. They can see what the consular officer does during the interview, they have not seen what they did to prep before the interview.

As for your particular example of submitting a photo of you and your fiancee at your engagement party, I have seen examples of where doing this caused problems with the petition. The USCIS officers had concerns as to whether or not the photo showed that a marriage had taken place and RFE'd petitioners to provide evidence that there was no marriage.

Yes, organization of the petition package is important - make it easy to find the important items, especially if the needles have been submitted along with a haystack.

Yodrak

i would like to raise the issue of helping to influence the embassy official once apacket arrives. For everyone stating save the relationship evidence for the embassy, many have posted how the embassy officials recieved their petition packet and said they were already convinced of the relationship because of evidence provided within.

There is no way that anyone on this website will ever convince me that submitting a photo of my fiancee and I at our engagement party together with her family around us will not have some knd of impact on the offical looking at it. I had to prove that the pic was taking in the last 2 years with plane tickets and hotel receipts, by the 3 photos i sent of us at that party are very good evidence of our relationship. And if the embassy officer looks at htose pics before he sees my fiancee for her interview then i am certain it will positively influence him.

There is absolutely no way that anyone will tell my that photographic evidence is not helpful. No way.

And for the record i submitted what many would think is a ton of evidence in my petition packet and was approved in 2 weeks. I have said it before and i'll say it again. organization is key. Pretend that your packet is going to be opened by a mentally handicapped person and make things easy for them to find.

[pax 0]

I think Yodrak makes a good point; you want to make it easy to find the evidence that will matter most. I tabbed everything I included with our petition (and it was thick; 60+ pages as I recall), like "EVIDENCE OF MEETING: PHOTOGRAPHS" or "EVIDENCE OF MEETING: PASSPORT STAMPS."

Whenever you can take a picture that can support being in a specific place at a specific time, take one. Ewen and I had pictures in front of well-known landmarks, for example.

[slim 1,525]

Photographic evidence is just a brick in the foundation of the case. You need as many strong bricks as possible. You don't HAVE to have it, but it helps. Imagine you are looking at a book on something you don't know squat about. Then, you see a picture of that squat.... (and that squat's fiance! and there just happens to be a date in the background) does it help?

If you are still together.... that's awesome!!! Like everyone said, go to Wal-Mart (also, welcome to America.... we LOVE Wal-Mart.... especially the SOOOPer Wal-Marts) get a camera (disposable or otherwise) and snap a couple of photos of the two of you together.

The "proof of life" photo of the two of you looking like hostages holding up the New York Times with the date on it isn't necessary, but will do a helluva job in confirming the date. Landmarks help too. Also, I suggest standing in front of billboards (like the ones from rock concerts or movies with dates on them) and snapping a couple photos together. It's as easy as going to the mall, standing outside of the theater, and asking the nearest soccer-mom to snap a couple photos of you in front of it or Suncoast or Sam Goody or whatever store is there with the movie posters. DVDs are only released at certain times, and if there is a photo of you and the fiance in front of a "Saw II, own it on DVD Feb. 14" poster.... that leaves little doubt as to when you were together.

My fiancee and I actually took several photos (accidentally) in front of the theater (that happened to be right around the corner from the embassy!) while I was visiting her. When it came time for photographic evidence, I was so happy we decided to pose there. Dates on the show's posters. I also had a photo of just her (but wearing the same clothes as in the photos of us together) in front of a Marilyn Manson billboard with the date on it. Most Muscovites will notice something like a Marilyn Manson show coming to town. That sealed the deal.

Don't delay..... if you're still here, snap some photographic evidence today! It can't hurt your K-1 packet!

[kaydee457 13]

Photographic evidence is just a brick in the foundation of the case. You need as many strong bricks as possible.

True, but is the smallest and weakest "brick". Photos are relegated to "secondary" evidence status as opposed to other documentary forms of evidence such as Passport Visa exit and entry stamps and airline boarding passes.

One must understand that the USCIS evaluates evidence that you submitted and parses that evidence by dividing it up into what's termed "primary" (most irrefutable) and "secondary" evidence.

Primary evidence is essentially irrefutable evidence that's documentary in form and in itself can prove, with reasonableness that the event occurred and can on its own merit stand alone un-challenged.

Secondary evidence is anything that can be submitted to reinforce the primary evidence but in itself cannot stand alone to prove ones assertion that an event occurred.

Photos are secondary evidence.

There have been many cases approved by submitting strong primary evidence without any supporting secondary evidence but there's been no cases that have been approved by submitting secondary evidence alone.

In other words, you can submit 100 photos, 25 bus tickets, restaurant receipts, etc. but they will never equal in weight a set of boarding passes and a copy of an exit/entry stamp.

[ryecatcher25 0]

ok what about a picture of 2 people holding a newspaper? how is that for rock solid photographic evidence? picture are very good evidence except for the fact that you need to prove that they were taken within 2 years of petition application. i mean what do plane tickets and hotel receipts really prove? that you were in the same city as your fiance?

[*Robert* 2]

ok what about a picture of 2 people holding a newspaper? how is that for rock solid photographic evidence? picture are very good evidence except for the fact that you need to prove that they were taken within 2 years of petition application. i mean what do plane tickets and hotel receipts really prove? that you were in the same city as your fiance?

With digital cameras and digital processing, you can make a picture show ANYTHING you like! The newspaper could be added in... the date could be changed. A picture is not SOLID proof of ANYTHING! You can take two separate pictures from two different places and make them into one.

Boarding passes are a little more difficult to forge, and at least have dates on them, as well as do hotel receipts showing time and place, along with duration of the visit.

A camera with a time stamp, can have the date changed to whatever date you want. You think the people looking over the evidence don't know that?

Kaydee couldn't have said it better... "Photos are secondary evidence". PERIOD!

[kaydee457 13]

Boarding passes are a little more difficult to forge, and at least have dates on them, as well as do hotel receipts showing time and place, along with duration of the visit.

Yes, and I might add that boarding passes are considered primary because in order to travel these days you need to show identification to demonstrate that you are indeed the person boarding the a/c. Same with exit/entry stamps in your passport.

Of course they can be forged however the difficulty of doing so is clearly out of scope of the majority of petitioners.

Bus tickets, restaurant receipts, etc. that have been mentioned time again here in these forums are also secondary since they cannot be considered primary; anyone can buy a bus ticket.....

[ryecatcher25 0]

this just isn't worth argueing over. anybody that only submits photos doesn't deserve to get approved and anyone who doesn't submit photos is just doing the bare minimum (which i realize is the method that some people here swear by)