Financial support to my wife's family in the Philippines

[Gilles 4]

There are some in here who say it's a no-brainer - that I should send her back to the Philippines. Obviously if I didn't love her, that's what I would do. I'm trying to work things out, to at least give her a chance. But she keeps begging for money when it's obvious she's got plenty which she has saved from her job. She says if I got her a ticket to go back to the Philippines, she wouldn't go - she'd stay here. If we can't get things worked out, is there a way I can force her to go back to the Philippines? She hasn't yet had the conditions removed on her green card.

Anyone have a link to what the conditions are before the conditions on the green card get removed?

[rlogan 2,036]

Hi Giles

Manipulation is a profession.

Manipulative people seek out gullible, naiive, trusting persons such as yourself and use well-documented tricks like emotional blackmail. In criminology they have a term called the "victim stance" that criminals look for in selecting who to victimize. You are a perfect mark for this kind of con-artist from what you said about your personality, and I was too before a lot of experience and numerous books helped me beat them.

They go through what is called the "evaluation phase" with you in the beginning to see how you respond to emotional blackmail, attacks on your ego, etc. They keep what is useful and discard what is not. So they don't use exactly the same playbook with everyone, but they manipulate everyone regardless.

Probably the best book is "In Sheep's Clothing: Dealing with Manipulative People". This is learned behavior. They have a lifetime of practicing it, and some of the posters here seriously underestimate how cunning and ruthless manipulative people can be and why your personality makes it so difficult to deal with.

This is a hard thing to accept about your wife. You suffer from a personality type that makes you blind to it, and in your defense, from her mastery of manipulation. They can pull flattery and tears out just as fast as explosive anger and attacks on your self-esteem. She is and will continue to run circles around you until you first acknowledge she is a manipulator and second that you have a personality that attracts this kind of vampire.

One of the important things to keep in your mind is that you are always way behind the manipulator because you are working from a false assumption of sincerity and love. They have no scruples or empathy for others. They practice what works, not what is just or moral. They cover every action with plausible deniability, so the gullible and trusting person falls for it over and over again.

Someone used the "emergency" of the electric bill being due as an example, so I will illustrate with that. They engineer this "emergency" specifically to blackmail you. They don't pay the bill, they wait until it is about to be shut off, and use that "emergency" to blackmail you into paying it. The element of surprise is critical to the success of an ambush, and so is the camoflague of sincerity. But it is cruel, manipulative behavior and they know exactly what they are doing.

They have an answer for everything (like there is no work) because they have practiced for so long and upon so many people that they have the answer to everything prepared before you even ask the question. They know how to evade questions, they know how to turn the tables, they'll use selective memory, lying, projection - it is a pretty big tool bag you are hopelessly underprepared for.

For a lot of Filipinas they are not really "two percenters" the books describe where the sole means of interaction with others is covert manipulation. Two percent of the population has this personality disorder. But all of us use manipulative behavior to some degree, (e.g. defense mechanisms)and Filipinas are in a position where these tools are a natural fit.

You often have the feeling that no matter what you do, you lose, right? On the one hand if you don't send the money you are made to suffer. But on the other hand, if you send the money then you still feel bad because blackmail payments never feel good.

They call this the "double bind", and it is one of the classic tricks of the manipulator for keeping you emotionally defeated and weak. Identify this feeling you have. Look at all the examples where you felt like that. In every case, you will see the double bind in the clarity of analysis outside the ambush environment. They very carefully created the double-bind and it is successful because you don't know what they are doing.

What you need to fix is yourself, not her.

I read three books in rapid succession when I was up against a really savage and baffling manipulator. I wrote down on paper the list of things he had been doing to me successfully for years. It was his playbook. Then I confronted him.

I was euphoric, laughing hysterically as things progressed, as opposed to the anguish and befuddlement I had always felt before. Every response he gave I would point to the list and say "that's nuber six...that's numer four, etc." I was free from it because I finally had the blueprints.

I have had to use this knowledge with my in-laws in the Philippines. It was initially hard for my wife to accept her family was using this cruel set of tricks, but I would not have married her if she did not.

I have some bad news/good news for you. From what I've read, and especially from the comment that there are other inappropriate behaviors, she's a nasty one that you are most likely needing to get rid of.

In the long run it's good news. Because there are plenty of wonderful Filipinas to court.

Most of all, buddy - arm yourself. I read "In Sheep's Clothing", "Nasty People", and "Taking the Bully by the Horns".

Then I came back and took on that manipulator. I flattened him like a steam-roller and left a wake of blood splattered all over the walls. I felt twelve feet tall and euphoric instead of weak and helpless like before, always feeling like I was behind him and letting my emotions get the better of me.

With my family in the Philippines, it has enabled me to deal with them effectively.

I have a lot more empathy than others here that make it seem so easy with the comments about growing a pair and wearing the pants. Those comments are largely true, but it is rather like telling an alcoholic to stop drinking after the first beer. You have a personality defect that makes it more difficult for you, just as with the alcoholic and booze.

Good luck.

[Darnell 8,478]

hey rlogan - thanks for checking in on this !!!

I had made reference to your post, over at http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/232940-financial-support-to-my-wifes-family-in-the-philippines/page__view__findpost__p__4027607

but here it is again -

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/228838-my-beautiful-wife-is-very-irresponsible/page__st__75__p__3498431#entry3498431

IMO - your stuff is the 'blueprint' for making sure this situation gets squashed, properly, with the right focus back at the family, as well.

Also IMO, yer the poster child for squashing and making it all work out, as well !! Mondo Kudos to You !

[TBoneTX 45,580]

your stuff is the 'blueprint' for making sure this situation gets squashed, properly, with the right focus back at the family, as well. Also IMO, yer the poster child for squashing and making it all work out, as well !! Mondo Kudos to You !

"Si, man" to rlogan, & "si, man" to Darnell, si man!

[rlogan 2,036]

You are very kind Darnell and TBoneTx

I suffered for years at the hands of covert manipulators despite being very successful at a lot of things. I was a complete retard about that part of my life.

So I have a lot of compassion for others who are victimized and I understand why it is so difficult for them to deal with.

I am only too eager to share these books, especially In Sheep's Clothing. You can't get that in ebook form. But you can get excerpts.

Like here: Covert Manipulation

The other two can be downloaded as e-books. Nasty people uses the term "Invalidator" and part of her behavior qualifies her as an invalidator, but her behavior is more comprehensive than that.

The original form of Take the Bully by the Horns was aimed at children but it has adult application too.

All over the internet you will find invalidators, manipulators, and bullies. I have left several discussion boards I used to participate on after reading these books because I learned the futility of dealing with this type of person and how mistaken I was about how vicious they are and how they will stop at nothing to get what they want. I wasted a lot of precious time thinking if I just put more energy into having them "see", I could stop them from being invalidators.

This is a very narrowly defined forum though and the problem Americanos face with covert manipulation by poorer spouse's families is common to many of us.

If you learn the art of dealing with manipulation then everyone wins - your wife, the family, and you.

You mentioned keeping the spotlight where it belongs - on their behavior - and you can see how our friend Giles is constantly on the defensive instead.

Hopefully many of you will be spared what I went through.

Edited July 9, 2010 by rlogan

[ca_babe 129]

I agree with what rlogan has posted. My mom is the abuser in my case. She asked me to send all of my salary over there to PH because she said that it's my husband's responsibility to provide for me and that it's my responsibility to provide for them. Before I came over here, my husband told me how much he was making and how much is left. He told me that if I am to come over here that I have to work because he can't afford to support me long-term. I agreed that I will work and help with the finances. I had a job in Philippines before I came over here and working is not a new concept to me. This is why I told my mother that I won't send her money because not only do I have to help pay our bills but I have to save money for our retirement as well. I refuse to have a kid and milk my kid! My mother then told me that it's better for me to die if I am not going to send her money.I had sent over $4k over there during my first two years of working over here in US which she squandered quickly. Then last year two months before her birthday she was asking me for money because she wants to have a big birthday party. That's only after a weeks after I told her that we had a mass layoff in our company and I was scared that we'll have another one again. I told her that she shouldn't even ask for money at that time and should be considerate. Then she mentioned it's because I make a lot over here that's why she's asking. Then a few months ago, she was asking me for money again because she had spent the money that I had sent to my father and want me to send money again. She said it's only $400 anyways. It's a very small amount. She doesn't have a job. She doesn't know what it's like to earn. She's just used to getting money wired over. I told her that even if I want to send money over there, my husband wouldn't approve of sending money to my father in order to support his mistress and his illegitimate kids(my parents are separated). My mom then told me that I should steal money from my husband so that my father would be please with me. That was the last straw to me. I really understand what the original poster is feeling. He loves his wife very much so even if he gets treated badly he still wants to work things out. I've been trying to understand my mother and my siblings back home because they're my family. However, they don't treat me like one and they would rather that I die if they can't get anything from me. It's really hard to separate myself from my mother but I have been trying. I did not steal from my husband and to keep my sanity, I stopped talking to her so that I won't hear her berate me anymore. But it took my 8 years to finally distance myself from them. I am pregnant right now and I refuse to have my baby be associated with them. I don't want my baby to grow up hearing the abuse. That's what gave me the courage to distance myself from them. When you grew up with an abuser, it's hard to break away from them. However, those people who gave comments about the OP's advice about how his wife is acting like a spoiled brat, I do not think that they fell on deaf ears. I think it just takes time to get away from the relationship. If it hasn't helped the OP, well I assure you that it has helped me reinforced my decision to stop communicating with my family at least until they start treating me nicely. Otherwise, I'm better off without them. To the OP, you're wife is an emotional abuser. I wouldn't be surprised if her family are emotionally abusive as well. My siblings are also abuser as well. My brother told me that he hopes that I'll miscarry because I refuse to send stuff over there because I told him that he's a lazy bum. He sounds a lot like my mother which is why it's important for me to distance from them. Emotional abuse can be contagious!

[Darnell 8,478]

rlogan, the thing that kills me about Gilles, is that this is a 6 month conversation here.

I pray he can turn around his situation, but -

IMO - there's 3 conversations occuring (we only see Gilles side of it) and Gilles apparently is not getting the proper inputs into the other 2 sides.

IMO, nothing will change until he DOES have that input, as well.

I am aware of 'your situation' rlogan, for many years my associates and workers would talk to ME about this 'situation', always in some social situation (and not at the workplace) - and I learned about 'the game' early on. YOU have a solution. FWIW - I sent off your solution to these ppl about 3 months ago. About 1/3 of them actually used it, with varying degrees of success.

Gilles - I do hope you take some time and read rlogan's stuff, digest it, map out a 'game plan' tailored to your exact needs, and go forth. The 3 books he mentioned are useful, as well, gives you some 'non-VJ' perspective on this, as well.

My only point and hope, ages past, in mentioning that YOU go to a minister and talk about this situation with him, is to get a 3rd party perspective on your situation, hoping that the minister could point out details about this master manipulation game to you.

Then when I posted rlogan's tome, I had hopes that you'd read it.

Time Passed, rlogan checks in to YOUR TOPIC, and I pray you take it all to heart.

Stay strong !

[rlogan 2,036]

I didn't realize it was six months, Darnell- but you know Dr. Simon's book and the others talk about extremely intelligent, successful people who have been driven to complete psychological destruction by manipulators. So even if he does not deal with the manipulation effectively, someone else can be helped by reading this.

ca-babe - my heart goes out to you. It is extremely difficult emotionally to call your parents and siblings on their bad behavior. They use your kindness and compassion against you. It is especially dangerous in a culture where the children are taught to take care of their parents. While there may be some element of truth in that, it is not a proud heritage of Philippine culture to support drunken, lazy, abusive parents.

You mentioned keeping your sanity by refusing to speak with your family. Making you feel insane is a classic covert aggression tactic, and you did the right thing. You are also right that this is a behavior they learn in childhood, and unless you break the cycle yourself, you will in turn pass it on to your children.

They observe in childhood someone saying something but doing the exact opposite. They also see someone else struggling endlessly trying to reconcile the two completely opposite things. So for example the child learns that you can lie right to someone's face, slap them while saying "I Love You" and the victim will go for years anguishing over "If he loves me then why does he beat me...". They see the victim is emotionally disabled, too weak to stand up against the aggressor, lying in bed depressed & etc... and the aggressor is happy, carefree - and gets what they want.

It works and therefore it is copied. You are exactly right that shielding your child from emotionally manipulative people is important. We do not place children in the hands of uncles who are pedophiles just because they are family. Same with emotional abusers.

You can bet that Gilles' wife doesn't have a care in the world by comparison to his suffering endlessly over her behavior. She is capable of crocodile tears and phony "hurt", sure. If it works, she will just keep using that tactic. But these people lack morals and empathy.

"Culture" is not an automatic excuse for bad behavior. In some cultures there are long histories of slavery, cannibalism, child sexual abuse, lying, stealing, whacked-out superstition, etc. So do not automatically accept this idea of children supporting parents just because it is "culture".

You don't marry a Filipina so that you can impoverish yourself like them. Many cultures do not save for retirement. It is not because they are poor. That is the REASON they are poor. So the wrong-headed Filipina says "we beg and steal because we are poor". The right answer to them is no, you are poor because you beg and steal.

[frank&machie 0]

"Culture" is not an automatic excuse for bad behavior. In some cultures there are long histories of slavery, cannibalism, child sexual abuse, lying, stealing, whacked-out superstition, etc. So do not automatically accept this idea of children supporting parents just because it is "culture".

You don't marry a Filipina so that you can impoverish yourself like them. Many cultures do not save for retirement. It is not because they are poor. That is the REASON they are poor. So the wrong-headed Filipina says "we beg and steal because we are poor". The right answer to them is no, you are poor because you beg and steal.

Hey rlogan, just have to give you kudos for the great insights and advise you are posting here. Same to Darnell.

Hope you guys are still around here in the future in case I run into any problems. Even if the OP isn't ready to act on some of the guidance posted here, I'm sure many others will benefit from this.

[Fandango 1,439]

There are some in here who say it's a no-brainer - that I should send her back to the Philippines. Obviously if I didn't love her, that's what I would do. I'm trying to work things out, to at least give her a chance. But she keeps begging for money when it's obvious she's got plenty which she has saved from her job. She says if I got her a ticket to go back to the Philippines, she wouldn't go - she'd stay here. If we can't get things worked out, is there a way I can force her to go back to the Philippines? She hasn't yet had the conditions removed on her green card.

Anyone have a link to what the conditions are before the conditions on the green card get removed?

This is a major misconception, and actually a huge peeve of mine, no offense. You cannot 'send her back' like defective merchandise to the store. Petitioners really need to be aware of this, it's not like the I184 can just be 'taken back' because things aren't working out for you.

I don't have answers for you, but 'send her back' is not one of them, I'm afraid.

Another thing: regardless of whether she's acting in a manner which you find unacceptable, I see a lot of bullying from your end in efforts to coerce her to do things your way. Unfortunately for you, imo, that doesn't work either. You want her to 'grow up' yet you threaten her with cutting off her net, cutting off her money, etc. You are not her father, and obviously, bully tactics don't work with her either. I'm not taking her side here, but you can only control yourself.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Happy Bunny

[Gilles 4]

I didn't realize it was six months, Darnell- but you know Dr. Simon's book and the others talk about extremely intelligent, successful people who have been driven to complete psychological destruction by manipulators. So even if he does not deal with the manipulation effectively, someone else can be helped by reading this.

ca-babe - my heart goes out to you. It is extremely difficult emotionally to call your parents and siblings on their bad behavior. They use your kindness and compassion against you. It is especially dangerous in a culture where the children are taught to take care of their parents. While there may be some element of truth in that, it is not a proud heritage of Philippine culture to support drunken, lazy, abusive parents.

You mentioned keeping your sanity by refusing to speak with your family. Making you feel insane is a classic covert aggression tactic, and you did the right thing. You are also right that this is a behavior they learn in childhood, and unless you break the cycle yourself, you will in turn pass it on to your children.

They observe in childhood someone saying something but doing the exact opposite. They also see someone else struggling endlessly trying to reconcile the two completely opposite things. So for example the child learns that you can lie right to someone's face, slap them while saying "I Love You" and the victim will go for years anguishing over "If he loves me then why does he beat me...". They see the victim is emotionally disabled, too weak to stand up against the aggressor, lying in bed depressed & etc... and the aggressor is happy, carefree - and gets what they want.

It works and therefore it is copied. You are exactly right that shielding your child from emotionally manipulative people is important. We do not place children in the hands of uncles who are pedophiles just because they are family. Same with emotional abusers.

You can bet that Gilles' wife doesn't have a care in the world by comparison to his suffering endlessly over her behavior. She is capable of crocodile tears and phony "hurt", sure. If it works, she will just keep using that tactic. But these people lack morals and empathy.

"Culture" is not an automatic excuse for bad behavior. In some cultures there are long histories of slavery, cannibalism, child sexual abuse, lying, stealing, whacked-out superstition, etc. So do not automatically accept this idea of children supporting parents just because it is "culture".

You don't marry a Filipina so that you can impoverish yourself like them. Many cultures do not save for retirement. It is not because they are poor. That is the REASON they are poor. So the wrong-headed Filipina says "we beg and steal because we are poor". The right answer to them is no, you are poor because you beg and steal.

Thanks for the links and your feedback. I have been aware that my wife is a good manipulator. Had I given in to all her demands, we would be bankrupt by now. As she knows I'm "sending her back to the Philippines" if she doesn't shape up her act (good manipulators will sense threats are idle unless you either show that you've followed through on threats in the past or share the threat with someone who has influence over them - and I have done both), she has cleaned up her act. But we're not completely through the woods yet. She's said she wants to have children and I've told her that we can't afford children on my income alone. Yet she insists on keeping a large portion of her income (if and when she starts working full time) to send to her family.

You are so right that they have selective memory and twist around facts to suit their needs. I'll use logically sound responses or questions to her illogical stances and she turns quiet.

[rlogan 2,036]

Hi Gilles. Glad you checked back in. A moment, please. Just to let others know, we have started a private conversation. But some things are of general interest.

frank&machie - thanks.

Happy Bunny - you have made a very good point that deserves discussion. Thank you.

When dealing with a manipulator you cannot win a war of manipulatory counter-tactics. On the one hand, you do have to demonstrate that their actions have consequences, and the most important one is final if they do not acknowledge their general behavior and demonstrate serious committment to change: good bye.

I let my wife go hungry and she had to walk many miles in Manila because she spent the travel money on clothes. I did not threaten anything with her. She just tried to put me in a double bind as teenagers will do, and I did not let her get away with it. So her actions had negative consequences and I demonstrated I wasn't falling for her manipulation.

Early in relationships people see what they can get away with and test your boundaries. They'll show ut five minutes late to see if you are the kind of person who tolerates that. If you do, there is no reason for them to change that. So a certain amount of this is normal whereas we are dealing here with a professional lifetime manipulator.

In the long term you can't live a life where you have to threaten war over every little thing. Husband and wife do things for one another simply because the husband or wife asked them to, not because they were threatened with harm. That is not a relationship based on love and mutual understanding.

Once you have established that they are a manipulator, if you attempt to deal with it by manipulating them in return then you are at war, and it is with an enemy who is a lot better at it than you. They can very truthfully state how manipulative you are being with threats. Now they've got you: you are a hypocrite.

The literature addresses "good" manipulation (saying please and thank you, or even grounding a child for bad behavior) vs. "Bad" manipulation where the consequence is mutual destruction instead of mutual benefit. A cunning manipulator will point to "good" manipulation (saying thank you) and claim hypocrisy when you point out their "bad" manipulation (attacking your self-esteem by shaming you in front of others).

There is benefit in my view in getting the manipulator to acknowledge their manipulative behavior, validating the feelings of the victim by showing empathy, and sincerely committing to meaningful change - under the premise that you are leaving them if you don't get that. It is actually a test of a personality disorder to see if the person is capable of empathy. If they are not capable of sincerely repeating back to you in their own words what your feelings are or what your position is on something then they do not have empathy.

You may think you have won an argument simply because they stopped talking. But that isn't empathy. That is not understanding. That is a person who views this as a war, and who is thinking how to be more cunning at manipulating the next time. They will never say "I am sorry I hurt you". They will say "I am sorry you think I hurt you" or "I'm sorry, but...(you deserved it)"

What is missing from the OP to this time is an important acknowledgement that took me most of my life to understand: I have a problem. I attract manipulators. I have difficulty watching actions instead of listening to pretty words.

Most people have better B.S. detectors than me. I am easily manipulated. Understanding this about myself, admitting it, and keeping it at the forefront of my mind when dealing with others is the only way for me to protect myself from it.

This is something the OP has yet to acknowledge. I think the same is true for him and so we cannot say that the problem is all about his wife. Nor can we look down upon him with contempt and say "why can't you be like me".

Everyone is human. Nobody perfect.

[sachinky 465]

Here's a novel idea. Why not actually get to know your spouses and how they deal with things in life -- and finances, is usually number # 1 issue for folks -- before tying the knot? Instead of getting married to someone (usually after a short online courtship) from a completely different culture -- where there very might well be different expectations and ideals regarding money and family -- without discussing these issues prior to marriage?

My husband comes from a very well-off family but he is not spoilt. He understands the value of money and never wastes it or is extravagant with it, even though he has it at his disposal. That is something I respect about him. Neither of us have any 'princess issues' and we knew that about each other even before we got married.

Edited July 12, 2010 by sachinky

[Gilles 4]

Here's a novel idea. Why not actually get to know your spouses and how they deal with things in life -- and finances, is usually number # 1 issue for folks -- before tying the knot? Instead of getting married to someone (usually after a short online courtship) from a completely different culture -- where there very might well be different expectations and ideals regarding money and family -- without discussing these issues prior to marriage?

My husband comes from a very well-off family but he is not spoilt. He understands the value of money and never wastes it or is extravagant with it, even though he has it at his disposal. That is something I respect about him. Neither of us have any 'princess issues' and we knew that about each other even before we got married.

I discussed finances with my wife long before she came to the US. She made it clear to me that she would not expect me to support her family. She described herself as a "simple person" who didn't need a lot of fancy material goods. And I made it clear to her that I was not very wealthy, nor did I portray myself in that manner when I went to visit her. We also had a discussion about the advantages & disadvantages of her either working, going to school or doing nothing when she arrives here in the US. She pretty much chose to do nothing, but has failed to understand that the disadvantages have affected her.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Gilles

[sachinky 465]

'Discussion' meaning on the phone and online, yes? Did you actually watch her budget money and see how she spends it? Did you witness her managing her finances in a responsible manner?

To be honest, if I came from a poor family instead of a relatively well-off family in India and all I really cared about was getting my butt to the U.S. just so that I could get a job (or guilt my husband) into sending money for my family back home, I too would lie through my teeth about how I didn't give a ####### about fancy cars or Louis Vitton bags as well. Nobody ever says they are 'materialistic' or a 'gold digger.'

For example, $22,000 a year sounds like a lot of money when you come from a poor family in a Third World country. When you arrive here and realize that it's not the $ amount that matters, but rather, 'purchasing power' is what becomes really important, it's bit of an adjustment to make. Heck, I've been here for five years now, and I remember how shocked I was the first time I discovered that a set of four tires cost nearly $700.

Edited July 13, 2010 by sachinky