State schools admit they do not push gifted pupils because they don't want to promote 'elitism'

[Niels Bohr 72]

I agree. Giving people false pretenses without condition is a bad idea.

I puffy heart academic tracking. Why? Because it does not sell false ideas to children. --- I see so many students on campus that just cannot get through a simple survey course. They get sad, depressed, and it is not their fault - they should have been tracked to technical or other schools in the first place. This whole bullsh1t theory about promoting self-esteem before academic achievement screws students royally.

Not everyone can and should make it to university, and that is perfectly fine. Yeah yeah, sounds evil - sue me. People's intelligences are suited for different types of learning and certainly different professions and activities. Selling k-12'ers the YOU CAN ALL BE WHATEVER YOU WANT serves only to make the school boards feel better, and ends up hurting kids more than helping them.

/off soapbox.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I just hope all who believe that not everyone has the aptitude for college level studies then supports the notion that lower skilled jobs pay a living wage.

You know I do

p.s. brother, this is not about "belief" me thinksssss.... some folks do not have the type of intelligence required for success in higher education. this does not make them stupid or less than - it just speaks to the facts that they learn and succeed in different ways.

I'm sure there is some truth to that, but seriously - I'd say 99% of high school graduates have the aptitude for college studies. Not all majors require a higher than normal aptitude to successfully complete. That's all I'm sayin.

And as much as I puffy heart you... thou is wrong. Of that 99%, about 40 should have never graduated high school --- in the sense that the current system drags inadequate students with this stupid no-fail no-repeat-grade policy. And then we deal with students who cannot read, let alone write, a coherent paragraph.

[Niels Bohr 72]

For nearly 30 years since the high school opened, the graduation rate in my city is about 23%. There's about 3,000 first year kids. Graduating class has only 700 kids.

I just hope all who believe that not everyone has the aptitude for college level studies then supports the notion that lower skilled jobs pay a living wage.

You know I do

p.s. brother, this is not about "belief" me thinksssss.... some folks do not have the type of intelligence required for success in higher education. this does not make them stupid or less than - it just speaks to the facts that they learn and succeed in different ways.

I'm sure there is some truth to that, but seriously - I'd say 99% of high school graduates have the aptitude for college studies. Not all majors require a higher than normal aptitude to successfully complete. That's all I'm sayin.

And as much as I puffy heart you... thou is wrong. Of that 99%, about 40 should have never graduated high school --- in the sense that the current system drags inadequate students with this stupid no-fail no-repeat-grade policy. And then we deal with students who cannot read, let alone write, a coherent paragraph.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I just hope all who believe that not everyone has the aptitude for college level studies then supports the notion that lower skilled jobs pay a living wage.

You know I do

p.s. brother, this is not about "belief" me thinksssss.... some folks do not have the type of intelligence required for success in higher education. this does not make them stupid or less than - it just speaks to the facts that they learn and succeed in different ways.

I'm sure there is some truth to that, but seriously - I'd say 99% of high school graduates have the aptitude for college studies. Not all majors require a higher than normal aptitude to successfully complete. That's all I'm sayin.

And as much as I puffy heart you... thou is wrong. Of that 99%, about 40 should have never graduated high school --- in the sense that the current system drags inadequate students with this stupid no-fail no-repeat-grade policy. And then we deal with students who cannot read, let alone write, a coherent paragraph.

Inadequate doesn't equate to aptitude..at least not the innate aptitude that I'm referring to. There have been instances where an athlete had made it all the through high school and college while being functionally illiterate, only to later to learn how to read after their athletic career ended. Also, many people are mediocre students throughout school until they reach college level, when they really flourished.

I would agree that most likely, a student who struggles through Grade School is less likely to succeed in college, but IMO, that has more to do with other factors besides any mental capacity to learn. When you look at some of the literacy rates around the world, some places have near 100% rate. I don't think that means they are smarter, but the structures are in place that are optimal for high literacy.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Galt's gallstones

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Inadequate doesn't equate to aptitude..at least not the innate aptitude that I'm referring to. There have been instances where an athlete had made it all the through high school and college while being functionally illiterate, only to later to learn how to read after their athletic career ended. Also, many people are mediocre students throughout school until they reach college level, when they really flourished.

I would agree that most likely, a student who struggles through Grade School is less likely to succeed in college, but IMO, that has more to do with other factors besides any mental capacity to learn. When you look at some of the literacy rates around the world, some places have near 100% rate. I don't think that means they are smarter, but the structures are in place that are optimal for high literacy.

Oh man... don't get me started on "athletes" occupying university seats they do not deserve . It is an insult all around. Yet it stems from the US unhealthy obsession with organized sports in educational environments. A sign of utter idiocy and really screwed up priorities, imho.

I agree with you --- it is not about capacity to "learn" per se; it is about what kind of knowledge and skills one can master -or not- And a good percentage of univ., students would have been much better served by a technical school/community college. We offer them the world, then we create resentful half-aszed graduates who cannot land a job.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Inadequate doesn't equate to aptitude..at least not the innate aptitude that I'm referring to. There have been instances where an athlete had made it all the through high school and college while being functionally illiterate, only to later to learn how to read after their athletic career ended. Also, many people are mediocre students throughout school until they reach college level, when they really flourished.

I would agree that most likely, a student who struggles through Grade School is less likely to succeed in college, but IMO, that has more to do with other factors besides any mental capacity to learn. When you look at some of the literacy rates around the world, some places have near 100% rate. I don't think that means they are smarter, but the structures are in place that are optimal for high literacy.

Oh man... don't get me started on "athletes" occupying university seats they do not deserve . It is an insult all around. Yet it stems from the US unhealthy obsession with organized sports in educational environments. A sign of utter idiocy and really screwed up priorities, imho.

I agree with you --- it is not about capacity to "learn" per se; it is about what kind of knowledge and skills one can master -or not- And a good percentage of univ., students would have been much better served by a technical school/community college. We offer them the world, then we create resentful half-aszed graduates who cannot land a job.

I think that's because colleges and universities leave it up to the individual student to find their way. College is when a lot people figure out who they are or what direction they want to go with their lives. It's not the responsibility, IMO, of colleges to place their graduates into jobs. Certainly, the college should be their to provide the mentoring and support in helping to choose a degree that will beneficial to the student, but I don't think they should be telling their students not to major in English because they'll have a hard time finding a job. Advise - yes, but beyond that, if a student wants to major in underwater basket weaving, I say let them.

As for trade schools - I have ambivalent feelings about them. Sure, they focus learning that is more career based, but often neglect or ignore critical studies that I believe are essential to anyone's career success in life, no matter what it is.

[Peikko 1,575]

Inadequate doesn't equate to aptitude..at least not the innate aptitude that I'm referring to. There have been instances where an athlete had made it all the through high school and college while being functionally illiterate, only to later to learn how to read after their athletic career ended. Also, many people are mediocre students throughout school until they reach college level, when they really flourished.

I would agree that most likely, a student who struggles through Grade School is less likely to succeed in college, but IMO, that has more to do with other factors besides any mental capacity to learn. When you look at some of the literacy rates around the world, some places have near 100% rate. I don't think that means they are smarter, but the structures are in place that are optimal for high literacy.

Oh man... don't get me started on "athletes" occupying university seats they do not deserve . It is an insult all around. Yet it stems from the US unhealthy obsession with organized sports in educational environments. A sign of utter idiocy and really screwed up priorities, imho.

I agree with you --- it is not about capacity to "learn" per se; it is about what kind of knowledge and skills one can master -or not- And a good percentage of univ., students would have been much better served by a technical school/community college. We offer them the world, then we create resentful half-aszed graduates who cannot land a job.

I think that's because colleges and universities leave it up to the individual student to find their way. College is when a lot people figure out who they are or what direction they want to go with their lives. It's not the responsibility, IMO, of colleges to place their graduates into jobs. Certainly, the college should be their to provide the mentoring and support in helping to choose a degree that will beneficial to the student, but I don't think they should be telling their students not to major in English because they'll have a hard time finding a job. Advise - yes, but beyond that, if a student wants to major in underwater basket weaving, I say let them.

As for trade schools - I have ambivalent feelings about them. Sure, they focus learning that is more career based, but often neglect or ignore critical studies that I believe are essential to anyone's career success in life, no matter what it is.

Like what? Schools can't and shouldn't be all things to all men. Your US system of wanting a 'rounded' education right into college is completely bizarre and means that in reality, your college graduates (when they finally do graduate after umpteen years) are little more than A level educated. Stupid.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I think that's because colleges and universities leave it up to the individual student to find their way. College is when a lot people figure out who they are or what direction they want to go with their lives. It's not the responsibility, IMO, of colleges to place their graduates into jobs. Certainly, the college should be their to provide the mentoring and support in helping to choose a degree that will beneficial to the student, but I don't think they should be telling their students not to major in English because they'll have a hard time finding a job. Advise - yes, but beyond that, if a student wants to major in underwater basket weaving, I say let them.

As for trade schools - I have ambivalent feelings about them. Sure, they focus learning that is more career based, but often neglect or ignore critical studies that I believe are essential to anyone's career success in life, no matter what it is.

Like what? Schools can't and shouldn't be all things to all men. Your US system of wanting a 'rounded' education right into college is completely bizarre and means that in reality, your college graduates (when they finally do graduate after umpteen years) are little more than A level educated. Stupid.

There are plenty of Liberal Arts majors who have had successful careers not related directly to their degree of study.

[alienlovechild 75]

Like what? Schools can't and shouldn't be all things to all men. Your US system of wanting a 'rounded' education right into college is completely bizarre and means that in reality, your college graduates (when they finally do graduate after umpteen years) are little more than A level educated. Stupid.

According to the the list, the UK and US universities are looked upon favorably by international observers.

The world's top universities 2009 Rank 2008 Rank School Name Country

1 1 HARVARD University United States

2 3 University of CAMBRIDGE United Kingdom

3 2 YALE University United States

4 7 UCL (University College London) United Kingdom

5 6 IMPERIAL College London United Kingdom

5 4 University of OXFORD United Kingdom

7 8 University of CHICAGO United States

8 12 PRINCETON University United States

9 9 MASSACHUSETTS Institute of Technology (MIT) United States

10 5 CALIFORNIA Institute of Technology (Caltech) United States

11 10 COLUMBIA University United States

12 11 University of PENNSYLVANIA United States

13 13 JOHNS HOPKINS University United States

14 13 DUKE University United States

15 15 CORNELL University United States

16 17 STANFORD University United States

17 16 AUSTRALIAN National University Australia

18 20 MCGILL University Canada

19 18 University of MICHIGAN United States

20 24 ETH Zurich (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) Switzerland

20 23 University of EDINBURGH United Kingdom

22 19 University of TOKYO Japan

23 22 KING'S College London United Kingdom

24 26 University of HONGKONG Hong Kong

25 25 KYOTO University Japan

26 29 University of MANCHESTER United Kingdom

27 21 CARNEGIE MELLON University United States

28 28 École normale supérieure, PARIS France

29 41 University of TORONTO Canada

30 30 National University of Singapore (NUS) Singapore

31 27 BROWN University United States

32 33 NORTHWESTERN University United States

32 30 University of CALIFORNIA, Los Angeles (UCLA) United States

34 32 University of BRISTOL United Kingdom

35 39 HONG KONG University of Science and Technology Hong Kong

36 34 ÉCOLE POLYTECHNIQUE France

36 38 University of MELBOURNE Australia

36 37 University of SYDNEY Australia

39 36 University of California, BERKELEY United States

40 34 University of BRITISH COLUMBIA Canada

41 43 University of QUEENSLAND Australia

42 50 École Polytechnique Fédérale de LAUSANNE Switzerland

43 44 OSAKA University Japan

43 49 TRINITY College Dublin Ireland

45 47 MONASH University Australia

46 42 The CHINESE University of Hong Kong Hong Kong

47 50 SEOUL National University Korea, South

47 45 University of NEWSOUTH WALES Australia

49 56 TSINGHUA University China

49 53 University of AMSTERDAM Netherlands

51 48 University of COPENHAGEN Denmark

52 40 NEW YORK University(NYU) United States

52 50 PEKING University China

54 46 BOSTON University United States

55 78 Technische Universitaet Muenchen (TUM) Germany

55 61 TOKYO Institute of Technology Japan

57 57 HEIDELBERG University Germany

58 69 University of WARWICK United Kingdom

59 74 University of ALBERTA Canada

60 64 LEIDEN University Netherlands

61 65 The University of AUCKLAND New Zealand

61 55 University of WISCONSIN-Madison United States

63 81 AARHUS University Denmark

63 71 University of ILLINOIS, Chicago (UIC) United States

65 72 Katholieke Universiteit LEUVEN Belgium

66 75 University of BIRMINGHAM United Kingdom

67 66 LONDON School of Economics and Political Science United Kingdom

67 88 LUND University Sweden

69 95 KAIST – Korea Advanced Institute of Science Korea, South

70 81 University of YORK United Kingdom

70 67 UTRECHT University Netherlands

72 68 University of GENEVA Switzerland

73 77 Nanyang Technological University (NTU) Singapore

73 60 WASHINGTON University in St. Louis United States

75 63 UPPSALA University Sweden

76 58 University of CALIFORNIA, San Diego United States

76 70 University of TEXAS at Austin United States

78 102 University of NORTH CAROLINA, Chapel Hill United States

79 73 University of GLASGOW United Kingdom

80 59 University of WASHINGTON United States

81 106 University of ADELAIDE Australia

82 76 University of SHEFFIELD United Kingdom

83 78 DELFT University of Technology Netherlands

84 83 University of WESTERN AUSTRALIA Australia

85 54 DARTMOUTH College United States

86 83 GEORGIA Institute of Technology United States

87 99 PURDUE University United States

87 83 University of STANDREWS United Kingdom

89 108 University College DUBLIN Ireland

90 62 EMORY University United States

91 86 University of NOTTINGHAM United Kingdom

92 120 NAGOYA University Japan

92 106 University of ZURICH Switzerland

94 137 Freie Universität BERLIN Germany

95 124 National TAIWAN University Taiwan

95 99 University of SOUTHAMPTON United Kingdom

97 112 TOHOKU University Japan

98 93 Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München Germany

99 104 University of LEEDS United Kingdom

100 78 RICE University United States

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/databl...versities-world

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Wow...I see a lot of Australian universities in that list. Where's BY?

[Peikko 1,575]

I think that's because colleges and universities leave it up to the individual student to find their way. College is when a lot people figure out who they are or what direction they want to go with their lives. It's not the responsibility, IMO, of colleges to place their graduates into jobs. Certainly, the college should be their to provide the mentoring and support in helping to choose a degree that will beneficial to the student, but I don't think they should be telling their students not to major in English because they'll have a hard time finding a job. Advise - yes, but beyond that, if a student wants to major in underwater basket weaving, I say let them.

As for trade schools - I have ambivalent feelings about them. Sure, they focus learning that is more career based, but often neglect or ignore critical studies that I believe are essential to anyone's career success in life, no matter what it is.

Like what? Schools can't and shouldn't be all things to all men. Your US system of wanting a 'rounded' education right into college is completely bizarre and means that in reality, your college graduates (when they finally do graduate after umpteen years) are little more than A level educated. Stupid.

There are plenty of Liberal Arts majors who have had successful careers not related directly to their degree of study.

Did I say there was anything wrong with not having a degree related to one's ultimate career? Personally, I don't think there is at all.

However, to have to continue with for example math and English language when you are majoring in Literature is pointless, needlessly time consuming and very expensive and the US college graduates understand math and English language no better than any high school graduate. In a UK high school one is expected to attain a useful level of maths and English competence before they proceed to college, not while they are there. I am inevitably led to conclude that a US degree is comparable to an A level, no matter what these ivy league tables might tell us. Mind you, the stupid exams they take in the UK are ridiculously easy these days, I am prepared to accept that the UK schools are dumbing down to the US high school levels.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Did I say there was anything wrong with not having a degree related to one's ultimate career? Personally, I don't think there is at all.

However, to have to continue with for example math and English language when you are majoring in Literature is pointless, needlessly time consuming and very expensive and the US college graduates understand math and English language no better than any high school graduate. In a UK high school one is expected to attain a useful level of maths and English competence before they proceed to college, not while they are there. I am inevitably led to conclude that a US degree is comparable to an A level, no matter what these ivy league tables might tell us. Mind you, the stupid exams they take in the UK are ridiculously easy these days, I am prepared to accept that the UK schools are dumbing down to the US high school levels.

For a BFA, the typical requirement is 6 credit hours of Math and English...or (gasp) a high enough proficiency score. That's not ridiculous, IMO.

[Peikko 1,575]

Did I say there was anything wrong with not having a degree related to one's ultimate career? Personally, I don't think there is at all.

However, to have to continue with for example math and English language when you are majoring in Literature is pointless, needlessly time consuming and very expensive and the US college graduates understand math and English language no better than any high school graduate. In a UK high school one is expected to attain a useful level of maths and English competence before they proceed to college, not while they are there. I am inevitably led to conclude that a US degree is comparable to an A level, no matter what these ivy league tables might tell us. Mind you, the stupid exams they take in the UK are ridiculously easy these days, I am prepared to accept that the UK schools are dumbing down to the US high school levels.

For a BFA, the typical requirement is 6 credit hours of Math and English...or (gasp) a high enough proficiency score. That's not ridiculous, IMO.

It's ridiculous to expect it to be carried out during college. It should be aquired before.

[Danno 1,228]

Wow...I see a lot of Australian universities in that list. Where's BY?

Where is BY, I have not seen him in a while, hope he's ok.

[Niels Bohr 72]

I read an article in US News Best Colleges. They brainwashed their audiences by saying get a degree that you really love to spend your life on. The reality in my opinion is that when you persue a four year BFA degree, you will be paying the same tuition and expenses as everyone else. However, the degree will not have a return that will make you happy financially.

One of the article has a one-on-one interview with a Masters of Fine Arts recipient. In this case, the interviewee said that getting a job with an MFA with a salary above $11,000/year is tough. Generally with MFAs, you might want to see if you can get a job at a museum. However, since there are only a few museum of art in the country, your chances of getting such jobs are slim.

Considering that person who came out with a MFA, the advice is that those who wants to persue a BFA must also look at the end of the 4 year college. You need to make sure you pay all your loans, debt that you accrued. That is the tough part with the BFA since the salaries for them is not very high.