Hugo nominated Canadian SF writer detained and beaten while exiting US into Canada

[trailmix 77]

I didn't read everything linked, but I suspect there's more to it then what is being said.

Has this been published in any major Cdn newspapers? You'd think you'd hear about it in the Globe and Mail , I tried a search and found nothing, but maybe it was me?

PS: from his quote, Peter Watts sound like a freaking pompous snot -, no?

If his allegations are true I would think that major Canadian newpapers would be doing fact checking, will be interesting to see what gets reported later on....if anything.

I didn't think his quote sounded pompous at all

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

he's not really canadian. a real canadian woulda pulled out a hockey stick and made a goal with every cbp officer.

[Dan and Ali 3]

he's not really canadian. a real canadian woulda pulled out a hockey stick and made a goal with every cbp officer.

[RollingOn 0]

Oh please....

This is such an attention grabbing whiner. There are no, I repeat, NO valid news agencies that have picked up on this supposed violation. The only reports are from blogs and ####### rags that I would not read on a bet.

I would like to hear his story, if true, be properly published byy the 4th estate.

Rick

[thetreble 19]

Oh and who the #### is Peter Watts? Pardon ma francais! I have a degree in Canadian literature...and...never heard of Peter Watts...I don't think Im that ignorant either.

[Wyatt's Torch 45]

Oh and who the #### is Peter Watts? Pardon ma francais! I have a degree in Canadian literature...and...never heard of Peter Watts...I don't think Im that ignorant either.

I hadn't heard of him either. If he's a Hugo nominee, that makes him a sci-fi writer (which is also intimated in his blog post about this incident).

[thetreble 19]

Gay.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

Gay.

Well said

[Aero and Dero 0]

He's pretty famous among the scifi crowd, and just as American literature majors here don't really review authors like Mercedes Lackey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Terry Brooks, or Piers Anthony, I doubt having a degree in Canadian literature makes you the end all be all of any kind of writing going on in Canada. Not knowing that's not what makes you ignorant. Gay, indeed.

If you're into gaming, he's one of the original storywriters for Homeworld 2.

Other, non-blog articles:

Gannet-based The Times Herald of Port Huron: http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/2009...-assault-charge

The Associated Press: http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...zWJvKFFWIEjpv6Q

Canada.com: http://www.canada.com/Writer+says+roughed+...4094/story.html

Edited December 13, 2009 by Aero and Dero

[Wyatt's Torch 45]

He's pretty famous among the scifi crowd, and just as American literature majors here don't really review authors like Mercedes Lackey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Terry Brooks, or Piers Anthony, I doubt having a degree in Canadian literature makes you the end all be all of any kind of writing going on in Canada. Not knowing that's not what makes you ignorant. Gay, indeed.

Wow...you're defending him like he's a friend of yours!

Honestly, even with the links you just provided (scratch that: especially with the links you just provided), he looks both guilty and stupid. Border patrol has the right to inspect any car in that area. He was in their country, he obviously got uppity and self-righteous, angry that he was being searched...which served only to make the guards suspicious.

One can be as philosophical as one wants about defying authority, but when it comes right down to it, if you're not ready, willing and able to pay the consequences for resisting authority, don't do it in the first place. I think most children know that it's stupid to get out of one's vehicle at the border, unless instructed to do so. Likewise, most children know that getting angry in such a situation will only serve to make the consequences graver.

I'm all for civil liberties, but unless I hear some compelling evidence otherwise, it looks like he got what he deserved.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Wyatt's Torch

[Aero and Dero 0]

He's pretty famous among the scifi crowd, and just as American literature majors here don't really review authors like Mercedes Lackey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Terry Brooks, or Piers Anthony, I doubt having a degree in Canadian literature makes you the end all be all of any kind of writing going on in Canada. Not knowing that's not what makes you ignorant. Gay, indeed.

Wow...you're defending him like he's a friend of yours!

Honestly, even with the links you just provided (scratch that: especially with the links you just provided), he looks both guilty and stupid. Border patrol has the right to inspect any car in that area. He was in their country, he obviously got uppity and self-righteous, angry that he was being searched...which served only to make the guards suspicious.

One can be as philosophical as one wants about defying authority, but when it comes right down to it, if you're not ready, willing and able to pay the consequences for resisting authority, don't do it in the first place. I think most children know that it's stupid to get out of one's vehicle at the border, unless instructed to do so. Likewise, most children know that getting angry in such a situation will only serve to make the consequences graver.

I'm all for civil liberties, but unless I hear some compelling evidence otherwise, it looks like he got what he deserved.

If you actually could read and could pay attention to what's being said or not said, you'll notice that I haven't fallen on either side of whether he's right or wrong. Merely pointed people to this incident in case they might be interested, distilled the tl;dr news in point form for people who didn't want to read the articles, and expressed a hope.

As for defending him? No. Calling literature you're not interested in gay is just homophobic and ignorant, something which someone who seems to try to present herself as intellectually superior on the subject of just about everything like thetreble does, might not want to appear as. But hey, I guess just cause I have a degree in computer science, I must know every single programming language in the world, just like how thetreble has a Canadian literature degree and must know every single Canadian author out there. Anyone else out there that's majored in something in college and knows absolutely everything about that subject?

I'm all for ragging on the guy if you think he's /wrong/, but dude, seriously? Dissing the guy for not being someone you know, so of course he must not be well-known? And dissing a guy for writing books that you think are gay? Really? That's the non-ignorant way to go? Awesome.

On the other hand? I'm in the camp, whether he's right or wrong, that something comes out of this. I do think they picked a person to assault, whether it was warranted or not, poorly and as someone quoted him earlier, he doesn't seem like one to just go quietly into the night. I hope there's more oversight that stems from this, whether he's found guilty or innnocent and that the media coverage of something like this bodes better for all of us in any of our travels across the border. I hope that because one guy feels he can be an asshat at the border, it'll open up doors where it's not only ok, but it's expected that you are allowed to ask to know why you are being detained. I want more government oversight of the CBP and more clearly delineated regulations on what is acceptable or not. Last I heard, I didn't think civil liberties were suspended at the border, and if you're detained, you should be able to ask why and get some sort of answer. Even a: This is routine. Or: That's classified information.

I don't think people who cross the border should be automatically treated as criminals and vagrants. I don't like it when the CBP asks me if the car I am driving is mine, as if there's no possible way a woman my age would be driving the car I have. I don't appreciate it when CBP agents comment on the length of mine and my fiance's time together (over eight years -- and why aren't we married), and make snide and/or rude thoughts thereof. It's not warranted. And yet I keep my mouth shut, a thin smile on my face and move on. I particularly don't like being lied to, esp. when if they aren't lying, it means the CBP's computer systems are that wretched: really, there's no record of my visit out of the country and my return trip two weeks ago? Isn't that why you're asking me when I was in Canada last? To test to see if what I say measures up with what you see? And you're telling me that your computers somehow didn't log this visit? It's better to think they're lying, than to think that my country's security is really that variable.

So, do I think he's in the right? I don't know. Am I donating money to his cause? No. Why not? Because I don't know the whole story, but what I'm reading so far, unfortunately, jives with my perception of the border. Am I going to paint him negatively, just cause there's no 'real' proof. No. Why? Because things like the strip searches of single female occupant vehicles at the Peach Arch, and subsequent rapes of a few of those girls by a few border agents warranted a several pages buried story in the Seattle Times four years ago. Because things sometimes never make the big news media outlets or the "more reputable" sources, and even when they do, they're put out with the weekend trash.

In the end, it's interesting, whether he's famous or not (whether thetreble knows who he is or not). But because he's famous, it gives me a stupid bit of hope that the media coverage might make more people aware of the border issues, both large and small, and bring some, even a miniscule, amount of change.

[Wyatt's Torch 45]

I don't like it when the CBP asks me if the car I am driving is mine, as if there's no possible way a woman my age would be driving the car I have. I don't appreciate it when CBP agents comment on the length of mine and my fiance's time together (over eight years -- and why aren't we married), and make snide and/or rude thoughts thereof. It's not warranted. And yet I keep my mouth shut, a thin smile on my face and move on. I particularly don't like being lied to, esp. when if they aren't lying, it means the CBP's computer systems are that wretched: really, there's no record of my visit out of the country and my return trip two weeks ago? Isn't that why you're asking me when I was in Canada last? To test to see if what I say measures up with what you see? And you're telling me that your computers somehow didn't log this visit? It's better to think they're lying, than to think that my country's security is really that variable.

The problem is that you don't see it from THEIR side. You have to remember that there are illegal immigrants slipping through the cracks every day...and the border guards are trained to do their best to ask questions that will expose potential illegals. Remember, as Trailmix often cites, the guards at each POE are trained to assume that anyone crossing into the U.S.A. is a potential illegal immigrant. And yes, you ARE going into a foreign country, no matter how similar the U.S. is to Canada in most ways. I've often been asked if the car I'm driving across the border is my car. It's routine...and NOT a judgment call on you or the kind of car you're driving. It's also VERY understandable that they'd ask you why you've been engaged for eight years and never married. It's not exactly a common occurrence, and I'm sure you get comments from MANY people on that...not just border guards. Of course THEY know how long you've been out of the country...but they want to make sure YOU know...that YOU are who you claim to be. That's the whole point.

Honestly...think about this from a border guard perspective. Sure, there are some jerks at POE, but you have to think of them as police officers. It's exceedingly rare that they'll ask anything that doesn't pertain to the security of the country.

So when I read a story like this one, and I read accounts of the driver angrily getting out of his car because the border guards are about to search it...I can't help but think, "What an idiot he was!" They have jurisdiction in that area, and by choosing to be in a foreign country, you have to be willing to accept that country's policy of security checks...or else don't go in the first place!

[Aero and Dero 0]

I don't like it when the CBP asks me if the car I am driving is mine, as if there's no possible way a woman my age would be driving the car I have. I don't appreciate it when CBP agents comment on the length of mine and my fiance's time together (over eight years -- and why aren't we married), and make snide and/or rude thoughts thereof. It's not warranted. And yet I keep my mouth shut, a thin smile on my face and move on. I particularly don't like being lied to, esp. when if they aren't lying, it means the CBP's computer systems are that wretched: really, there's no record of my visit out of the country and my return trip two weeks ago? Isn't that why you're asking me when I was in Canada last? To test to see if what I say measures up with what you see? And you're telling me that your computers somehow didn't log this visit? It's better to think they're lying, than to think that my country's security is really that variable.

The problem is that you don't see it from THEIR side. You have to remember that there are illegal immigrants slipping through the cracks every day...and the border guards are trained to do their best to ask questions that will expose potential illegals. Remember, as Trailmix often cites, the guards at each POE are trained to assume that anyone crossing into the U.S.A. is a potential illegal immigrant. And yes, you ARE going into a foreign country, no matter how similar the U.S. is to Canada in most ways. I've often been asked if the car I'm driving across the border is my car. It's routine...and NOT a judgment call on you or the kind of car you're driving. It's also VERY understandable that they'd ask you why you've been engaged for eight years and never married. It's not exactly a common occurrence, and I'm sure you get comments from MANY people on that...not just border guards. Of course THEY know how long you've been out of the country...but they want to make sure YOU know...that YOU are who you claim to be. That's the whole point.

Honestly...think about this from a border guard perspective. Sure, there are some jerks at POE, but you have to think of them as police officers. It's exceedingly rare that they'll ask anything that doesn't pertain to the security of the country.

So when I read a story like this one, and I read accounts of the driver angrily getting out of his car because the border guards are about to search it...I can't help but think, "What an idiot he was!" They have jurisdiction in that area, and by choosing to be in a foreign country, you have to be willing to accept that country's policy of security checks...or else don't go in the first place!

I do see their side. I do nothing but play devil's advocate at work. I understand it's hard. But this is also the same border who let four truckloads of hazardous material to make a uranium bomb, with deliberately and very poorly forged documents just cross into the United States. It was a random inspection of our country's borders, particularly the Peach Arch and Pacific Crossing ones, to see how 'safe' they are done by the FBI.

But you should be allowed to ask why you're being detained. Even murderers have rights in this country: Miranda rights, lawyers present, asking why you're being held and what proof there is. For some reason, these rights are apparently suspended at the border where, I admit, I am totally afraid to demand my actual rights as a US citizen for fear that there will be repercussions later.

You also misunderstood my anecdote. A bit more backstory: My fiance and I were detained at the border last Christmas (after 7 years of no problems), and held for 8 hours. We were not allowed to go to the bathroom, eat, drink, do anything. I was told to sit on a bench and not move. He was ultimately detained because the officer sitting out in the carport decided that my fiance was living in the United States illegally and had an illegal job and/or was going to school in the US illegally. Never mind our recorded history of 2-3 day visits, with the occasional 1-2 week long visits here and there. He was denied entry, and the CBP made sure to let me know I could totally ditch my fiance and drive back into the country without him -- except the whole thing where I was his ride (so this is where I can believe they just dumped Peter Watts across the border without his belongings or car to fend for himself). We went back up, came back with proof of his vast ties to Canada (mortgage, school schedule, school payments, bills) and were allowed to cross that same day, 3 hours later. They scanned our passports, went through our documentation and we were in Seattle in 2.5 hours.

It was on subsequent visits for me, that I was detained every single time returning into the country. They refused to tell me why, except that this was random and routine. I believed them the first time. Not so much the next two times, and I finally got the courage to demand to speak to a supervisor. Turns out, it wasn't random and it wasn't routine. According to the supervisor, the Pacific Crossing border had records that my fiance was denied entry, but had not kept records that either of us returned to the US the same day. Somehow, that magically wasn't recorded. The supervisor apologized for the oversight, went back, did his magic, and I've never been stopped since (knock on wood). I don't know what in God's name made him /believe/ me without documented proof that we'd returned to the US that same day, except possibly that, y'know, he was probably lying to me about the return not being recorded. I've never seen them just take someone on their word like that.

I know why they ask me when the last time I visited was. Because they have the records right there. But, I don't appreciate being lied to when it's a very obvious lie. I also realize it's routine to ask if the car I am driving is mine. What isn't routine is the snide expressions on some (not all) of the agents faces. As if I shouldn't be able to afford the car I have.

And we haven't been engaged for 8 years. We've been dating for 8 years. We've only been engaged for four months.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Aero and Dero

[Aero and Dero 0]

I should note, ironically, for people who the border had a record of being denied entry but not of being granted entry that same day, we also flew (on those passports which allegedly were never swiped until I asked them to rectify their error) two days later to see my parents for Christmas. How safe does that make you feel?

[Udella&Wiz 325]

He's pretty famous among the scifi crowd, and just as American literature majors here don't really review authors like Mercedes Lackey, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Terry Brooks, or Piers Anthony, I doubt having a degree in Canadian literature makes you the end all be all of any kind of writing going on in Canada. Not knowing that's not what makes you ignorant. Gay, indeed.

If you're into gaming, he's one of the original storywriters for Homeworld 2.

Other, non-blog articles:

Gannet-based The Times Herald of Port Huron: http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/2009...-assault-charge

The Associated Press: http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...zWJvKFFWIEjpv6Q

Canada.com: http://www.canada.com/Writer+says+roughed+...4094/story.html

Interesting - I am a heavy duty reader, including sci-fi since I was about 13, my major was in English Lit at university, including Fantasy courses, guess I somehow missed him. Anyhoo