Trench Warfare

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Very random topic I know. I'm trying to determine who invented modern trench warfare. It appears that modern trenches were first used at the tail end of the American Civil War but there are also references to their use by British soldiers in New Zealand about the same time.

[Pooky 3,840]

Very random topic I know. I'm trying to determine who invented modern trench warfare. It appears that modern trenches were first used at the tail end of the American Civil War but there are also references to their use by British soldiers in New Zealand about the same time.

There's no such thing as "modern" trench warfare. Trench warfare became obsolete at the end of the First World War, when some bright spark decided that a breech-loading artillery piece would retain it's accuracy if the barrel moved on the carriage instead of with the carriage. With the artillery mount remaining fixed, and the barrel of the gun returning to the same position each time, it made the artilery piece far more accurate in successive shots, eliminating the scattering of shots, thus making trenches, a fixed position, obsolete.

So, by your reckoning, trench warfare lasted a little over half a century. Why the interest?

[Danno 1,228]

Very random topic I know. I'm trying to determine who invented modern trench warfare. It appears that modern trenches were first used at the tail end of the American Civil War but there are also references to their use by British soldiers in New Zealand about the same time.

There's no such thing as "modern" trench warfare. Trench warfare became obsolete at the end of the First World War, when some bright spark decided that a breech-loading artillery piece would retain it's accuracy if the barrel moved on the carriage instead of with the carriage. With the artillery mount remaining fixed, and the barrel of the gun returning to the same position each time, it made the artilery piece far more accurate in successive shots, eliminating the scattering of shots, thus making trenches, a fixed position, obsolete.

So, by your reckoning, trench warfare lasted a little over half a century. Why the interest?

I would suppose the armored tank changed the equation quite a bit too.

[Pooky 3,840]

Very random topic I know. I'm trying to determine who invented modern trench warfare. It appears that modern trenches were first used at the tail end of the American Civil War but there are also references to their use by British soldiers in New Zealand about the same time.

There's no such thing as "modern" trench warfare. Trench warfare became obsolete at the end of the First World War, when some bright spark decided that a breech-loading artillery piece would retain it's accuracy if the barrel moved on the carriage instead of with the carriage. With the artillery mount remaining fixed, and the barrel of the gun returning to the same position each time, it made the artilery piece far more accurate in successive shots, eliminating the scattering of shots, thus making trenches, a fixed position, obsolete.

So, by your reckoning, trench warfare lasted a little over half a century. Why the interest?

I would suppose the armored tank changed the equation quite a bit too.

Not as much as the artillery. The problem with tanks was that they broke down. A little too often.

And overrunning a trench in a tank didn't actually do the tank much good, as it was an obstruction and it exposed the underside of the tank. Their first appearance was worth more for the fear factor than the actual combat results

[justashooter 430]

entrenched positions have been used since the dawn of war, for a wide variety of purposes, beginning with the stoppage of horse and chariot. napolean faced hasty trenches many times in his little "world tour". but perhaps we should consider a more recent case. Sir Edward Creasy wrote a short piece titled The Victory of the Americans Over Burgoyne at Saratoga (1777) that includes detailed descriptions of "modern" entrenchments in use. surely such tactic had been used before...

gas casualties outnumbered arty casualties in the war to end all wars. gas was bad juju, but as noted earlier, it was mobile armour that eliminated the value of the trench. the potential of mobile armour was understood by the end of the first war, but not really expressed until the spanish civil war, and on a larger scale in poland just a few years later. patton understood it in 1918, but didn't get to command it till 1942.

[justashooter 430]

I would suppose the armored tank changed the equation quite a bit too.

Not as much as the artillery. The problem with tanks was that they broke down. A little too often.

And overrunning a trench in a tank didn't actually do the tank much good, as it was an obstruction and it exposed the underside of the tank. Their first appearance was worth more for the fear factor than the actual combat results

the tanks that broke down were french.

the value of the tank was it's ability to advance in the face of machine gun fire, which had been the scourge of the battlefield since crimea. in that conflict mr maxim's design changed the face of war. high volume discharge systems had existed previously, but were generally ill used. case in point, the millitraeuse, a multibarreled barrage gun on carriage, of course, it was french...(as an aside, machine guns were often reffered to by the term millitraeuse until the end of the first war).

early tanks were not intended to over-run trenches. they little resembled modern tanks, having as primary armament a series of machine guns shooting the standard infantryman's cartridge. they were intended to advance upon the trenches and by position eliminate the defilade, allowing enfilade fire in the trenches.

[scandal 951]

There is at least one well-known modern instance of a significant battle taking place in classic hand-to-hand trench warfare combat. It happened in 1967 during the Six Day War in Jerusalem between Israeli and Jordanian forces at Ammunition Hill (Givat Hatachmoshet).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ammunition_Hill

Historical background

Restored trenches at Ammunition Hill

Ammunition Hill was located across from a police academy, with a fortified trench connecting them. The site was built by the British during their Mandatory government of Palestine in the 1930s, and was used to store the police academy's ammunition.

Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the post remained under control of the Jordanian Arab Legion, severing the link between Mount Scopus and West Jerusalem. In the wake of the Jordan-Israel Armistice Agreement, parts of Mount Scopus remained an Israeli enclave[2] in Jordanian-held territory, with the Jordanians blocking access to Hadassah Hospital and the campus of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem on the hilltop.[2]

The post consisted of tens of bunkers built along the three main trench systems surrounding the hill, with fortified gun emplacements covering each trench. The living quarters for the Jordanian defenders of the hill were in a large underground bunker now housing a museum. When the Six Day War broke out, the post was defended by a reinforced Jordanian company of 150 soldiers, of the El-Hussein regiment (number 2).

[edit] The battle

A decision was taken by the Israeli Jerusalem Command, under General Uzi Narkis to forego an aerial attack on the hill due to its proximity to civilian areas. Instead an artillery barrage was to be focused on the police post, followed by a ground attack using an enlarged Paratroop company. The size of the Israeli assault force was based on incorrect intelligence which detailed the hill as being defended by a single platoon. When the ground assault began, the Police post was discovered to be empty of Jordanian troops, as they had taken shelter from the barrage in the bunker system of the hill, thereby enlarging the force defending the hill to one equal in size to the assault force rather than 1/3 of its size as had been anticipated by Israeli Central Command.

The fighting at the police academy site and Ammunition Hill began on June 6, 1967, at 2:30 AM. The task of capturing the hill was given to the Israeli 3rd company of the 66th Battalion, of the Paratroopers Brigade's reserve force (55th Brigade), and during the battle, a force of the 2nd company joined the fighting. The battle ended at 7 AM. 37 Israeli soldiers were killed in the battle for Ammunition Hill.[1] 71 Jordanian soldiers were killed.

Ten of the soldiers who fought in this battle were given citations by the Israeli chief of general staff. The commander of the Paratroopers Brigade was Mordechai Gur.

[Niels Bohr 72]

The best warfare!

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare baby!

[slim 1,533]

Sir Edward Creasy wrote a short piece titled The Victory of the Americans Over Burgoyne at Saratoga (1777) that includes detailed descriptions of "modern" entrenchments in use. surely such tactic had been used before...

Supposedly the boys up on Bunker Hill were entrenched.... and if they were, it's most assured they'd done it against the French some twenty years earlier.

[NickD 203]

Really an incidental topic, while some wars were fought with chivalry and honor many were fought by staving out cities and killing so called innocent civilians using the term, the ability to make war. Geneva Convention called for some fairness in war where the opposing enemies had to wear uniforms, but did not apply to a person that did not, could be shot as a spy, where uniformed POW had to be treated with care.

USA still has chivalry in making our troops dress up in targeted uniforms against an unknown enemy, that to me seems completely unfair. While the Soviets enjoyed the spoils of war, our troops could not do that without getting into deep trouble.

Another phrase, all is fair in love and war, does not apply to us, we have strict rules of engagement to follow.

[SMR 368]

Fixed fortifications have been used since the beginning of recorded history and are still used today. As abilities to attack them have changed, they have also changed to withstand those attacks. Defining when the first trench was used is probably impossible.

[NickD 203]

Fixed fortifications have been used since the beginning of recorded history and are still used today. As abilities to attack them have changed, they have also changed to withstand those attacks. Defining when the first trench was used is probably impossible.

British were very formal during the Revolutionary War, George Washington used what we call guerrilla tactics today, didn't make sense to him to stand in a neat straight line and catch those little lead balls. Hiding behind a tree made a lot more sense. Snipers for a very long time were looked down upon by our military, but finally adopted as SOP.

[justashooter 430]

Fixed fortifications have been used since the beginning of recorded history and are still used today. As abilities to attack them have changed, they have also changed to withstand those attacks. Defining when the first trench was used is probably impossible.

we are wandering far from the OP topic. modern trench warfare is really defined as a conflict in which enemies take opposing positions dug into entrenchments that are extended periodically by sappers, until the entire field of conflict becomes a maze of trenches, position in which is fought over during an extended period of time. saratoga included this type of moving entrenchment warfare for over a month, but the cited israeli case did not.

the answer lies with the machine gun and the tank. the appearance of the machine gun on the field of conflict brought to an end the era of massed infantry or cavalry charge. the appearance of the armoured tank brought to an end the era of modern trench warfare. somebody forgot to tell the french, so they lost to the germans in ww2 in a heartbeat.

[Ban Hammer 13,620]

Very random topic I know. I'm trying to determine who invented modern trench warfare. It appears that modern trenches were first used at the tail end of the American Civil War but there are also references to their use by British soldiers in New Zealand about the same time.

There's no such thing as "modern" trench warfare. Trench warfare became obsolete at the end of the First World War, when some bright spark decided that a breech-loading artillery piece would retain it's accuracy if the barrel moved on the carriage instead of with the carriage. With the artillery mount remaining fixed, and the barrel of the gun returning to the same position each time, it made the artilery piece far more accurate in successive shots, eliminating the scattering of shots, thus making trenches, a fixed position, obsolete.

So, by your reckoning, trench warfare lasted a little over half a century. Why the interest?

I would suppose the armored tank changed the equation quite a bit too.

just a bit....

U.S. Army Buried Iraqi Soldiers Alive in Gulf War

us-army-buried-iraqi-soldiers-alive-in-gulf-war

[NickD 203]

Fixed fortifications have been used since the beginning of recorded history and are still used today. As abilities to attack them have changed, they have also changed to withstand those attacks. Defining when the first trench was used is probably impossible.

we are wandering far from the OP topic. modern trench warfare is really defined as a conflict in which enemies take opposing positions dug into entrenchments that are extended periodically by sappers, until the entire field of conflict becomes a maze of trenches, position in which is fought over during an extended period of time. saratoga included this type of moving entrenchment warfare for over a month, but the cited israeli case did not.

the answer lies with the machine gun and the tank. the appearance of the machine gun on the field of conflict brought to an end the era of massed infantry or cavalry charge. the appearance of the armoured tank brought to an end the era of modern trench warfare. somebody forgot to tell the french, so they lost to the germans in ww2 in a heartbeat.

Aircraft also had a minor effect of change. So much for battleships. Panzers really didn't stand much of a chance against our much smaller Sherman's because we made those by the thousands. So we are now making multi-billion dollar weapons that can be taken out with some kind of a handheld thingy. Doesn't make sense. Our PT boats also had great success against the Japanese cruisers. Then there is nuclear, but dare not use those. Billions and billions spent on these.