Ammo Question

[ZorValachan 0]

I know a lot of you are knowledgeable in firearms.

A related question-ammo.

Anyone know who made this?

The G looks looks like Latin alphabet. maybe a stylized 6?

The п is either Greek or Cyrillic and the last looks like a stylized ζ Greek or з Cyrillic

[AKguy 1]

Looks like a Russian manufacturer?

[mox 298]

The letters look like бпз. If you do a Google search on "бпз 9mm," the first hit is a now non-existent web page titled "International Ammunition Association {cartridgecollectors.org." Unfortunately it's a dead link, and isn't cached by Google. But the teaser text says "Might it be "BPZ"/"БПЗ"? I've heard this is a mark used by Barnaul, ... Anyone know if this headstamp has been seen on 9mm Para or 9 x 18 Makarov? ..."

There's some more links, mostly in Russian though.

[AKguy 1]

Go me.

JSC Barnaul

JSC Barnaul Machine Tool Plant (Russia)

http://www.afte.org/ExamResources/gallery2...allery/album02/

And Mox for helping.

[mox 298]

Cool, mystery solved!

[ZorValachan 0]

Thanks! I was not even thinking that that 'G' might be a б That was what was confusing me, the 'mix' of Latin and Greek/Cyrillic letters.

The Highway Patrol's firearm section was trying to figure the manufacturer so they could move forward on a case.

[justashooter 430]

they must have a really crappy forensics division.

barnaul produced ammo has been imported in large quantities and in a wide variety of calibers over the last 10-15 years. trade names like Wolf, Brown Bear, and Silver Bear come to mind. generally it's pretty crappy stuff, but when we were burning the handguards off of AK47 with it at 69$ a thou, who cared?

no way you gonna find a bad guy by knowing that the empties are barnaul produced. having a sales record of a suspect purchasing barnaul wouldn't be very convincing to an educated jury, either, but isn't that what jury selection is intended to avoid? "What dat ETA?"

[ZorValachan 0]

they must have a really crappy forensics division.

no way you gonna find a bad guy by knowing that the empties are barnaul produced.

1) They have a huge backlog of cases now (do to some recent political/law changes) and are trying to get through them. kinda of like the VJ adjudicators; might put a case to the side for later if they can burn through a couple of easy ones. They have 3 people-budget cuts=no help. I volunteered to look into it and knew somebody here would know the answer with all the pies and guns talk.

2) Correct, but when doing comparisons to spent casings and bullets, it is better to do comparison firing using the same ammo manufacturer than different ones.

[slim 1,530]

Is it wrong that I'm literally aroused right now? Two threads in two days? WOW!!!

the 'mix' of Latin and Greek/Cyrillic letters.

Almost all their export stuff has that mix - and funky Latin characters where at least one will be out of size with the others.

The Highway Patrol's firearm section was trying to figure the manufacturer so they could move forward on a case.

Tell Barney to keep that bullet in his pocket, with skills such as these, we don't want these guys accidentally shooting themselves.

they must have a really crappy forensics division.

Or no forensics division at all!

barnaul produced ammo has been imported in large quantities and in a wide variety of calibers over the last 10-15 years. trade names like Wolf, Brown Bear, and Silver Bear come to mind. generally it's pretty crappy stuff, but when we were burning the handguards off of AK47 with it at 69$ a thou, who cared?

I love this stuff! Mostly because I'm cheap, but also because the last few years they've improved their quality tremendously. It's no Lake City or S&B, but it'll run.... for about 30% of the cost. I've even found the newer stuff to be pretty accurate. They're no handloads or anything, but they'll hit at 500 all day long. Biggest thing with this stuff is it's non-reloadable and that's a deal breaker for most serious gunners. They also used to lacquer-coat everything but have mostly switched to polymer now.

This is awesome ammo for guns with "less exacting" tolerances like AKs and GI (read: very used!) ARs. It'll go bang in most guns but it may not go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.... usually somewhere along the way you'll hear a click. Not cool for the serious shooters. I've shot a whole bunch through my AR and it eats this stuff up. Of course, it's been shot a whole bunch and has a GI bolt too, so maybe that has something to do with it.

Most of the new stuff has the headstamp like the ones to the top and right of the one pictured in the link.

no way you gonna find a bad guy by knowing that the empties are barnaul produced. having a sales record of a suspect purchasing barnaul wouldn't be very convincing to an educated jury, either, but isn't that what jury selection is intended to avoid? "What dat ETA?"

I guess maybe they're hoping they find a stash of this stuff at the guy's house and can match them up. Or there are multiple crime scenes with the same casings. Either way, not much to stand on.

1) They have a huge backlog of cases now (do to some recent political/law changes) and are trying to get through them. kinda of like the VJ adjudicators; might put a case to the side for later if they can burn through a couple of easy ones. They have 3 people-budget cuts=no help. I volunteered to look into it and knew somebody here would know the answer with all the pies and guns talk.

Well, hopefully this will help. I'm all for helping law enforcement catch the bad guys.... provided it's legal and not costing me anything. (Hi Sprint customers!)

2) Correct, but when doing comparisons to spent casings and bullets, it is better to do comparison firing using the same ammo manufacturer than different ones.

True, but the only place they're going to find that old type of ammo is in someone's basement. Wait a minute..... justashooter, are you still here?

[ZorValachan 0]

1) Or no forensics division at all!

2) I guess maybe they're hoping they find a stash of this stuff at the guy's house and can match them up. Or there are multiple crime scenes with the same casings. Either way, not much to stand on.

3) Well, hopefully this will help. I'm all for helping law enforcement catch the bad guys.... provided it's legal and not costing me anything. (Hi Sprint customers!)

1) Yes, it's fun to pick on 'authority', hell I do it all the time. Sometimes people interested in things happen at certain times to know something that an expert (or 'expert') might not know. I know I sure pissed off a lot of history professors in college, while I was an undergraduate. When you're doing so many different cases, working with toolmarks, footwear, tire impressions, etc. It can be simple to overlook something, have a brain fart, or whatever and someone with interest in only one of those will know more that someone who has to know all of them.

2) Agree:What was described in the first sentence is totally useless and has been proven without a doubt to offer 0% proof of anything. Even if the headstamp/bunter marks are from the same tool, the mixing of ammo before it gets boxed makes it so finding casings at a scene and same ammo at the suspect's is not evidence. Its the same principle that stopped the FBI a few years back from using bullet compositions from 'batches' to try to link a crime bullet to one in a box. It just doesn't work.

The second sentence though depending on how many casings, and if the gun is found, and if casings can also be found at the suspect's residence, can all be matched and add up to good circumstantial evidence. Add some DNA, Trace Elements, Fingerprints, and a solid case can be made. I do not know the specifics on this case. Every case HAS to be worked. That's the downside. Even if the evidence is laughable, they have to process it and write a report.

3) If I sound a little defensive about the statement the division sucks, it's because I know a lot of other stress these examiners are currently under. I sincerely do thank you all for the help. I figured asking here would get results faster (and being accurate) than one of them asking a colleague and then waiting around for an answer.

[ZorValachan 0]

]Just for Fun:

Slim, in case you ever get some little Slims running around, I thought you might want to know about these additions to legos.

[slim 1,530]

Make sure those legos don't test fire that grenade launcher!

[justashooter 430]

3) If I sound a little defensive about the statement the division sucks, it's because I know a lot of other stress these examiners are currently under. I sincerely do thank you all for the help. I figured asking here would get results faster (and being accurate) than one of them asking a colleague and then waiting around for an answer.

those of us who study the issue for the love of it are usually more educated than those who study the issue for a salary. we have knowledge of the arcane that is synthesized from the observations of disparate sources. we store this knowledge in biological databases that are in some ways superior to electronic and printed databases. any time you have a question the answer to which eludes you, we are more than willing to assist.

as for the value of forensic ballistics, well, we have spare barrels and receiver wrenches.

you can catch the average amateur, but you'll never catch the dedicated enthusiast. we use revolvers for the fun stuff.