Guns and Pie

[visaveteran 1]

I'm not sure about only loosing 1/2 second...the supposed time to rack a gun. There is more to it. If you carry C&L, all you need to do is draw and as you are bringing the gun up into it's site picture, you release the safety.

If you carry unchambered, you have to draw, release the safety and use two hands (unless you're Slim) in a lowered arms position to rack the gun and then bring it upwards to get the site picture or shoot instinctively. That takes more than 1/4 second unless you've practiced it and are professional. I believe they call it the Israeli Draw.

You use the bike helmet analogy, but a helmet is worn only one way and it passively does it's job to protect you. You don't throw it on just before your bike goes down. A gun requires your choice of actions to save you or fail you.

[mox 298]

You use the bike helmet analogy, but a helmet is worn only one way and it passively does it's job to protect you. You don't throw it on just before your bike goes down. A gun requires your choice of actions to save you or fail you.

I only used the helmet analogy to clarify that carrying chamber-empty has nothing to do with confidence in the same way that riding with a helmet has nothing to do with confidence in one's ability to handle a bike. The analogy is pretty useless past that point.

[slim 1,523]

But seriously, what are the odds you'll ever find yourself in a situation where it literally came down to 1/2 a second? ...................................... than you are to be involved in a shooting situation where 1/2 a second matters, but you're mitigating the risk as if this is the most likely outcome. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

I just typed out a long point and then decided to dump it in favor of this -

There's no reason a round in the chamber should be perceived as any more of a risk than a round in the magazine. Why? I'll give you a flying analogy.

When you're flying for the first time and you look out right next to you and see those big scary propellers spinning at who knows how many RPMs, isn't it natural to say, "Gosh, if those came off right now, they'd chop me to shreds!" But, are they really any more dangerous while they're spinning than they are while they're at rest? There are numerous safety devices in place to stop them from flying off. Sure, they could still come off the plane and rip you to shreds, but they won't. Sure, your gun could accidentally discharge... but it won't.

If you're flying on a plane with propellers that're right next to you, you make sure they don't fly off and rip you to shreds. You check and double check the safety systems. Wouldn't you do the same with your gun? Simply placing a round in the chamber makes it no more dangerous than not having a round in the chamber. Outside influences still have to affect it in one way or another to make it go boom.

Slim, those are the pistols I would carry if I could here in the police state of Illinois. I am ready whenever we might never get the chance here.

I know what you meant, and I feel your pain as I'm an ex-FOID card holder. Sure it sucks, and there are still a lot of hoops to jump through, but at least Cook County is safe now and at least you're ready whenever you might never get the chance to be ready.

i can honestly state i have never lost a deer or elk because there was not one in the chamber......as far as a hand gun with one in the chamber i do not do that either.......it dont take that long to put one in......

Hunting and concealed carry to save your life from other humans are two entirely different animals. Pun definitely intended.

I have a fairly complete collection of M1911s from an original M1911, M1911A1, Commander series 70, and a couple of Kimbers,

I think I just got a chub.

why would one choose to carry a gun in a manner that is at a distinct tactical disadvantage

If you think you're going to be able to "step it up" in response to outside factors, (as in, you're changing your tire in a bad neighborhood so you chamber one before exiting the vehicle) you should probably practice that more than anything. If you're going to have an AD, it'll be when you're switching from one readiness state to another. Why? Because YOU are messing with the safety of your gun. That's an increased risk in and of itself. The more you move your gun around and change positions, draw, reholster, etc., the more likely you are to have an AD. If you carry in one position and don't fuss with your gun at all, you decrease the chances of AD dramatically.

Once you start carrying for a while (all this is for mox, not you, Gary) you'll notice it's rather simple to carry in any condition once you've got everything situated. The hard part comes from removing your gun to enter a Criminal Protection Zone, securing it in your vehicle then reholstering once you get back out, switching from one side to the other, etc. When you start to add stress to that, it becomes even more difficult, and that's where your risk comes in. Hell, you could probably carry all day long with a round chambered, NO SAFETY at all, and you'd be fine (I don't advocate ever doing that) as long as you didn't ####### with your gun. But, when you start "adjusting" things is when bad things could happen.

What if someone wanted to carry a revolver with two chambers empty just in case the hammer struck too hard or it got pulled back and the next chamber rotated into the firing position? They'd have to squeeze at least twice before a shot went off, right? We could agree that would be 100% safe to carry, right?

But couldn't we also agree that'd be pretty asinine?

If you have several safety features on your pistol and you intentionally disregard them, that's basically what you're doing. And all you're doing by doing that is placing yourself at a tactical disadvantage.

At home, where there are no clothing restrictrions, a short barreled 12 ga with number 4 buckshot trumps them all.

If I could legally carry one of those, I would at all times. Since I can't, it's .45 cocked and locked. Next best thing if you ask me.

Almost forgot - LOVE the new signature, mox!

[mox 298]

Almost forgot - LOVE the new signature, mox!

Hehe thanks.

Regarding everything else, we'll agree to disagree. I guess the important thing is, no matter how you carry, that you're comfortable with the decisions you make, and that if the stars ever align to the point you have to draw for "business," you're trained and prepared enough to do it by the numbers.

Now if we had these kinds of controversies over pie, we might really be in trouble!

[baron555 934]

Now if we had these kinds of controversies over pie,

Actually I think we can.

Make your own crust or store-bought?

[mox 298]

Make your own crust or store-bought?

Definitely make your own. You can never be too careful!!!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I didn't copy all of Slim's post, but he makes good points.

Just to be clear, when I carry a M1911 type handgun (and sometimes I still do) I always kept it cocked and locked, live round in the chamber, and left it that way for long periods of time. I did not take it out and play with it, I did not unholster it every night, blah, blah blah. I left it IN the holster, ON my belt. When I took off my pants, the gun and holster were hung up with them. If I decided the next day to wear different pants, the gun and holster came off together. I agree with Slim's point that the risk of AD happens when YOU mess with things. I had the good fortune of growing up in a rural area, working outdoors where I was carrying a handgun fror everything from drilling holes in fenceposts to shooting a rattlesnake. I carried a gun most of my life since I was a pre-teen. Most of that time it was a .45 M1911. It was always carried cocked and locked. In all that time I never had an accidental discharge or any time found the thumb safety "Off" when it should not have been. ALL of the holsters I have used did not have a strap of any sort to hold the gun in place or go between the hammer and firing pin. I just never considered it an issue and even now, when I hear discussions such as this, my first thought is "Are you serious? Someone still thinks this?" I suppose there are people that carry a modern Ruger Single Action with an empty chamber under the hammer also.

It is just one of those things, if I am going to carry a gun on a regular basis (and I am) then said gun WILL be ready to apply deadly force in the quickest manner possible. I am not going to mess around with racking a slide, yada, yada, yada. If it becomes necessary to display this gun, it is necessary to kill someone, that is why I have the gun...to kill someone before they can killl me or my family. I will not debate it or try to put time frames on how fast I can operate the slide of a .45 under conditions when I am in fear of my life or that of my family. I just have way too much experience in taking out the .45, sweeping the thumb safety off and shooting, I do not wish to complicate anything. If I choose another gun to carry, it will be carried also in a manner that allows easy, natural, and basically "thoughtless" application. Another reason why I like the S&W Centennial. when you want to shoot it, pull the trigger, when you want to stop shooting it, stop pulling the trigger. You do not even need to take it out of the coat pocket.

I don't imagine I will put to use any deadly force today, or tomorrow, probably never. At least I hope so. I carry a gun for the same reason I have a spare tire, even though I do not expect a flat tire today. Just in case. Just in case, the gun will be ready for use. I do not see a point in carrying a gun which is not ready for use.

[mox 298]

Just to be clear, when I carry a M1911 type handgun (and sometimes I still do) I always kept it cocked and locked, live round in the chamber, and left it that way for long periods of time. I did not take it out and play with it, I did not unholster it every night, blah, blah blah. I left it IN the holster, ON my belt. When I took off my pants, the gun and holster were hung up with them. If I decided the next day to wear different pants, the gun and holster came off together.

Hope you don't have children in the house. Ever.

even now, when I hear discussions such as this, my first thought is "Are you serious? Someone still thinks this?"

There are a lot of people who still think this. No idea what the percentages are, but this topic comes up at my club and on the boards often enough that I'm pretty sure the issue is nowhere close to settled. And while I may be a relative newcomer, there are shooters out there with a lot more experience than any of us here who'd side with me.

It is just one of those things, if I am going to carry a gun on a regular basis (and I am) then said gun WILL be ready to apply deadly force in the quickest manner possible.

Well that would be carrying condition zero, wouldn't it?

In any case, you and Slim make compelling arguments, but I think I make a compelling argument too. When it comes down to it, there's just no absolute answer to this question, because there are no absolutes when that time comes where somebody is going to have a very bad day. I'm very comfortable with my ability to handle a weapon, and I'm very comfortable with my (and many others') approach to safety, and I'm very comfortable with the notion that if somebody poses a threat to me or my family, I won't hesitate to make it a very bad day for that somebody. So if that somebody wants to gamble their life on the extra half second it'll take me to chamber a round, I say bring 'em on.

Edited December 17, 2009 by mox

[baron555 934]

"There are a lot of people who still think this."

That's only because they do not understand the true operation of the 1911; proven for over 70 + years.

"Hope you don't have children in the house. Ever."

I know he does but they are of an age, and most likely have been educated, to know all about gun safety and personal possessions.

Personally, I do now have a very young, very inquisitive one. So the bedside 45 is now in Condition 3 but the Remmy Pump action still is in the corner, round in the chamber, safety on. (A Remington 870, very nice arm, 18 inch barrel, 7 round mag, all black, great shooter, with #4 Buckand all black!).

"I don't imagine I will put to use any deadly force today, or tomorrow, probably never. At least I hope so. I carry a gun for the same reason I have a spare tire, even though I do not expect a flat tire today. Just in case. Just in case, the gun will be ready for use. I do not see a point in carrying a gun which is not ready for use. "

To the libs and the gun control freaks, they all think that we 2nd Ad folks will go about like it was the Wild West. Obviously they have never taken a gun safety course. What is the first thing they teach you? How to not use the arm!!! They teach you how to keep yourself out of harms way and what to do and how to act to never have to draw. But.......we also know what to do if we need to take this last resort. This is an important aspect that is not repeated enough, IMO.

Edited December 17, 2009 by baron555

[visaveteran 1]

I think it's irrefutable that carrying cocked and locked is the best way to carry a 1911A1 for protection. So this discussion moves to matters of an individual's choices. There is a choice between two types of fear concerning a gun...one is the fear of an accidental discharge of a 1911 handgun. The other is the fear that to carry a 1911 in anything but c&l may cause one to be on the loosing side in a battle of some type.

Mox, it seems, has decided to honor his fear of an AD over his fear of dying from a lack of readiness with his handgun. And that is his business and choice. I happen to think, like others, that if this is your prime issue, you chose the wrong gun...or you bought a gun you have chosen not to maximize. Even though you think the 1911 is good, you reject one of its primary advantages...a single action with the ability to go c&l with security.

What is interesting to me is this...you said if you were in a bad neighborhood, you'd chamber a round. Here we see the reverse mind set...the fear of dying in the ghetto trumps the AD fear. You're less willing to play the odds that you will be safe with an unchambered gun. You go on high alert.

I think what some of us who carry in a serious manner have decided is that the whole world is a "ghetto" if some nut case or perpetrator shows up. We don't like your reliance on playing "the odds" of needing a live gun. The morgues are full of that sort of innocence or naivete.

[mox 298]

"There are a lot of people who still think this."

That's only because they do not understand the true operation of the 1911; proven for over 70 + years.

I might print this...I think some of the crusty old fellers at my club would get a good chuckle.

"Hope you don't have children in the house. Ever."

I know he does but they are of an age, and most likely have been educated, to know all about gun safety and personal possessions.

Personally, I do now have a very young, very inquisitive one. So the bedside 45 is now in Condition 3 but the Remmy Pump action still is in the corner, round in the chamber, safety on. (A Remington 870, very nice arm, 18 inch barrel, 7 round mag, all black, great shooter, with #4 Buckand all black!).

If you've got young ones in the house, and there's ANY chance at all that they can get to your loaded weapon unsupervised, then not only are you very likely breaking the law (depending on where you live), but you're setting yourself up for a tragedy. Get yourself a biometric safe for the handgun. I love mine, and if I hear a bump in the night, it takes all of a few seconds to arm myself. For the shotgun, get a trigger lock if you absolutely must keep it loaded at all times. There are way too many examples of young ones finding creative ways of getting at a loaded firearm, and there are too many stories about parents who couldn't believe their now dead child was able to fire that gun.

To the libs and the gun control freaks, they all think that we 2nd Ad folks will go about like it was the Wild West. Obviously they have never taken a gun safety course. What is the first thing they teach you? How to not use the arm!!! They teach you how to keep yourself out of harms way and what to do and how to act to never have to draw. But.......we also know what to do if we need to take this last resort. This is an important aspect that is not repeated enough, IMO.

Come on.

First of all, in many (most?) states, there's no requirement for training before purchasing a gun. Dude, I'm a liberal (actually, I think I'm probably more of a libertarian and a federalist, but I have a foot in both camps), and I'm not scared of you or Slim or Gary. But I'm sure the #### scared of Bustagoon out there with his bling'd up sideways-aimed pea shooter who (and this is just a guess) didn't go and get hisself trained up before strikin' a pose in the local 7-11 with it. That's the guy the librulz are afraid of, and it's the reason that sensible liberals want sensible gun legislation. (as a caveat, there is some very stupid and/or misguided legislation out there. I'm not talking about that.) (and yes, bustagoon is the reason we pack. But I'd much rather bustagoon never got his hands on a weapon in the first place, and sensible legislation would help.)

And then there's the NRA, who do NOT want sensible gun legislation. The NRA will not stop until every man woman and child is allowed to have a tactical nuke in their possession. In fact, I see the NRA and it's most rabid supporters as a MUCH bigger threat to the 2nd amendment than anti-gun advocates. For a very recent example, the NRA opposes closing the gun show loophole, even though the majority of its membership is in favor of the closure. That's just wrong-headed and dangerous. There was a day when the NRA advocated responsible gun ownership, but those days are gone. And until they get back to sensible advocacy they're not gonna see a dime from me.

It's not the liberals you need to be worried about, it's the extremists in our own midst. Carrying a sidearm to a Presidential speech, for example, is much more damaging to our 2nd amendment rights than anything Nancy Pelosi could dream up, and yet "our side" is constantly pulling bullshit stunts like that, and then patting ourselves on the back for it.

Edited December 17, 2009 by mox

[visaveteran 1]

No training is required to buy a gun (which I think would be good thing to change) but training is required to conceal carry. And most firing ranges require some range training to use the facility.

Kids get hurt more on hot stoves and falling down stairs than gunshot wounds...but of course we must protect them. My son knew about gun safety at five and I took him shooting at 8...much to my ex wife's ire. Today he's a recently converted liberal but loves guns and shooting. Interestingly for the forum, he collects older Russian guns. He has a Makarov (great gun!), a Russian SKS (hard to find), and an old Mosen. He also has a Tokarov but it's Romanian.

IMO, kids under 4 need to be protected from guns by whatever means needed. In my case, after my son turned 5, I never locked my guns up or used trigger guards which turns a weapon into a paper weight. My father never did either. It's about teaching boundaries and educating in the dangers and teaching them the technical aspects to gunnery. And, most importantly, you have to demystify guns but exposing them to guns early. Let them handle a gun and shoot it. But, alas, accidents will happen with guns like anything else. To hold up a few sad examples of accidents to sell a point of view is manipulative and exploitative, and asking for unrealistic levels of safety. Frankly, I'd be more worried about my kind playing football than shooting.

The NRA is all that stands between the 2nd Amendment and Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. Imperfect as it may be in some ways, it has created stiff political consequences for those who would try to take away gun rights. The interesting thing about some anti-gun people is that they, themselves, own guns. Look a Jim Webb, a liberal Democrat...he tried to sneak in two handguns into the Congress!

Maybe you could say the ACLU is similar to the NRA in some ways...once good but now with a more extremist agenda.

[Ban Hammer 13,293]

for a semi auto - carried on me, it's got one in the chamber and on safe. taking it off safe can be done while withdrawing it from the holster.

for a revolver - carried on me, i'd have the hammer on an empty chamber. i don't usually carry a revolver though.

in the house or in my vehicle while traveling, it would be one in the chamber for either type.

Edited December 17, 2009 by charles!

[mox 298]

Well at least we can all agree that magazine disconnects are a desirable and necessary part of any handgun.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Just to be clear, when I carry a M1911 type handgun (and sometimes I still do) I always kept it cocked and locked, live round in the chamber, and left it that way for long periods of time. I did not take it out and play with it, I did not unholster it every night, blah, blah blah. I left it IN the holster, ON my belt. When I took off my pants, the gun and holster were hung up with them. If I decided the next day to wear different pants, the gun and holster came off together.

Hope you don't have children in the house. Ever.

even now, when I hear discussions such as this, my first thought is "Are you serious? Someone still thinks this?"

There are a lot of people who still think this. No idea what the percentages are, but this topic comes up at my club and on the boards often enough that I'm pretty sure the issue is nowhere close to settled. And while I may be a relative newcomer, there are shooters out there with a lot more experience than any of us here who'd side with me.

It is just one of those things, if I am going to carry a gun on a regular basis (and I am) then said gun WILL be ready to apply deadly force in the quickest manner possible.

Well that would be carrying condition zero, wouldn't it?

In any case, you and Slim make compelling arguments, but I think I make a compelling argument too. When it comes down to it, there's just no absolute answer to this question, because there are no absolutes when that time comes where somebody is going to have a very bad day. I'm very comfortable with my ability to handle a weapon, and I'm very comfortable with my (and many others') approach to safety, and I'm very comfortable with the notion that if somebody poses a threat to me or my family, I won't hesitate to make it a very bad day for that somebody. So if that somebody wants to gamble their life on the extra half second it'll take me to chamber a round, I say bring 'em on.

well I have raised four sons, still have one in the house full time not to mention being from a family of 8 children and there were always guns around and many of them were loaded. as we were told, they were ALL loaded. Never an accident and none of the kids had any desire to play with guns any more than they want to play with table lamps or bookshelves. I believe in "gun-proofing" the kid. Attempting to "kid-proof" a gun is doomed to failure. My children began learning about guns, as I did, as infants. Mommy read a bedtime story, Daddy shows them a gun and how to take it apart and put it together. Among the first words out of my sons mouths were "slide stop" and "barrel bushing". By age three they can dissect a rifle and explain which extraction systems have advantages over others. This is not a joke. Alla's sons are getting the same education as is Alla. I do not hide guns in the house, there really IS a rifle behind the kitchen door (how would one cook in a kitchen without a rifle behind the door?) I do not lock them up.

as to how you carry your M1911 it is highly unlikely to make any difference to myself or my family...so go for it. For that matter, if the bad guy is your run of the mill crack head I am sure a look at the business end of Ol' Ugly may just change his mind about where to score some cash for his next hit of drugs

Well at least we can all agree that magazine disconnects are a desirable and necessary part of any handgun.

Another solution to a problem that never existed and, Thankfully, not part of the excellent M1911 design.