Guns and Pie

[Martyshk 137]

I can't say it's tragic. Just another case of irresponsible parents. Think it was just an accident?

Why is their 3-year-old playing Nintendo Wii?

Exactly.

Sh!t, that was exactly my first question when i read that!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Another Un-"happy" GUN story

A 3 year old should know better. By the time my sons were three they could have checked the gun to see if it was loaded, unload it and field strip it. (And it wouldn't have mattered the type, by age 3 they knew all of them) Name the parts, clean it and put it back together. They started gun lessons within the first week they were born. Some of their first "sentences" were "slide stop" or "barrel bushing" and why the long extractor and controlled feed of a mauser type bolt is superior to the push feed action. Sheeeesh. Actually, by age 3, they would have looked at the gun and said "meh...Dad probably wants me to clean his gun again...I'll just play Wii instead" And no, I am not kidding. The kids all get to use and shoot guns, and clean them, and they understand there is a place for them and a proper use for them. They also do not play with the vacuum cleaner, mop bucket, snow shovels, table lamp or the other common household items in the home, I mean #######!!!

Given that the moron in this story was the step-father, I am going to assume the 3 year old had not been properly educated in firearms yet and the f*cktard should not have left loaded guns laying around the trailer. This is what happens when you give potentially dangerous tools to uneducated people, regardless of age. Similar things happen with chainsaws, bicycles, automobiles, ladders, etc.

[mox 298]

I can't say it's tragic. Just another case of irresponsible parents. Think it was just an accident?

Why is their 3-year-old playing Nintendo Wii?

Exactly.

I think any time a 3 year-old dies, for whatever reason, it's tragic.

Gary, I about 90% don't believe you, but even if your 3 year-old could field strip a weapon (that's a helluva grip for a 3 year-old), their motor skills aren't developed enough that they should be handling a loaded firearm, let alone unload it. It's like giving a drunk person, or a person with Parkinson's, a loaded firearm. Pretty damn irresponsible.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think any time a 3 year-old dies, for whatever reason, it's tragic.

Gary, I about 90% don't believe you, but even if your 3 year-old could field strip a weapon (that's a helluva grip for a 3 year-old), their motor skills aren't developed enough that they should be handling a loaded firearm, let alone unload it. It's like giving a drunk person, or a person with Parkinson's, a loaded firearm. Pretty damn irresponsible.

Believe it. Mox. Educating children is not something I joke about. The day they came home from the hospital they began gun lessons. I didn't read them "bedtime stories", I showed them a gun, took it apart, named the pieces and put it back together, first showing them how to make sure it wasn't loaded. I am sure their eyes couldn't focus yet when we began this. But what the heck, I was spending time with my sons and how is it any different than reading the a book or showing them a teddy bear? They don;t underwstand anything at that point except that some large and friendly thing is holding them and making pleasant sounds. Might as well be about guns. I bought them their own battery of firearms before they were born. Each had a .22 rifle, a .22 revolver, a 20 ga. shotgun and a .30-06. The child's guns were kept in the child's bedroom in plain sight, unloaded but NOT locked...again from the day the came home from the hospital. Each night they got to choose which gun they wanted to study, it could be one of theirs or one of mine. I had some 83 to choose from at that time and it covered a pretty broad range. I didn't have a SIG for example, but others were close enough to it that by age 3 they could have looked over a SIG and figured it out.

At age 3 if they needed help with restraining a recoil spring or something, I was there to do it, yes we had to operate within physical limitations and I didn;t want them getting "M1 thumb", but I assure you, promise you, they knew how. I also had on a very small .22 rifle called a "Chipmunk" which both of them began shooting with supervision in the backyard before age 3. The rifle weighs 2.5 pounds. An average 3 year old can handle it, no problem. By age 3 they could easily operate it themselves. That rilfe now resides with my oldest son and he will use it for his son, age 9 months, that is already learning about firearms. They first started "shooting" before their first birthday with a lightweight, cheap (mostly plastic) Daisy BB gun. Old enough to walk is old enough to shoot and ride a horse. Waiting longer is neglecting their education. They were both hunting with me by age 3 and helped with processing deer when we killed one.

There is no such thing as a childproof gun, but you can make gun-proof children. It is easy. By the time their "motor skills" were to the point of grasping a firearm they had been so thoroughly "saturated", immersed, in firearms they simply no longer had any curiosity about them and would rather play with tupperware, dog food, and other things they were curious about, but were relatively harmless.

I promise you, if I had left a loaded handgun on the kitchen table with my 3 year olds, if I came back in a few days it would be covered with jelly, bread crumbs, have juice spilled on it and have macaroni and cheese stuck to it, but it wouldn't have a fingerprint on it. They would probably ask me to get it out of the way so they could color in their coloring book. They knew better than to even think about touching a gun without asking Dad first. when they were 10 or maybe even before, they could drive a truck, or a horse on the family's ranch, drive down to the stock pond take a .22 rilfe and go to collect me some frog legs. This they did so un-supervised, by that age they were pretty well experts in firearms, riding and driving trucks and I had no concerns about my 10 year olds wandering the pastures with a .22 rifle. A box of long rifle ammunition made a pretty good babysitter. When my oldest son was 12, he no fooling saved my life when I was injured seriously and he loaded me in the ranch truck and drove me 40 miles to the hospital in Abilene. All by himself. It was not a mistake to teach them to drive before age 10.

was it a waste? was it stupid? They grew up with guns, shot guns almost every day, went to other peoples houses that had guns (and sometimes left them laying around loaded like f*cktards will), yet they both grew up, both can ride a horse, both can shoot any kind of gun pretty damn good and neother have been hurt by a firearm ever... well maybe an M1 thumb or two, but nothing else. And neither has had a car accident yet! I would say that is success.

[mox 298]

Here's the problem: a child's brain can't really be considered "fully" developed until they're at least 8-10 years old. The part of the brain that controls reasoning and judgement skills is called the frontal lobe. In a 3 year-old, the synapses between the frontal lobe and the rest of the brain are like bare wires. Because of this, the signals often get "shorted out," or degraded, or take the wrong pathways.

It's why mothers show up to a clinic with their child who has just injured themselves and say "he's never done this before, and we've always told him to be careful!" You can talk to a 3 year-old every day for a week about how doing something will hurt them, and they will understand you, but you can't ever depend on their frontal lobe to get that message to the rest of the brain when it's really important, such as when dad's outside mowing the lawn and he wonders what it might be like to shoot his sister. The frontal lobe might be screaming like a banshee that this is a VERY BAD IDEA AND DAD SAID NO, but the signal that's actually processed might just come across as "I know I'm being naughty, but WANT!" (that "WANT" part comes from a very active limbic system that controls emotions and wants) Your child at 3 years old has the reasoning skills of a chimpanzee much of the time. (note that I'm not saying 3 year-olds have NO reasoning skills. I'm saying that you can't always count on those reasoning skills, just like you can't count on having electricity 24x7 if you're running power over degraded wires.

What you experienced with your child being able to disassemble and reassemble a weapon has nothing to do with what was going on in his or her frontal lobe. Learning happens in the cerebrum, and it's one of the most well developed parts of the brain at birth. Unfortunately it gets less flexible as we age, but it's a big reason that very young children can learn multiple languages almost as soon as they begin talking.

The other part of your child's brain that hasn't fully developed yet at 3 years old is the neocortex. This controls motor functions. When your child first started trying to grab at things but completely missed, it's because the neocortex was still "calibrating" itself. This calibration process goes on well past 3 years old. It's why I say that putting a loaded gun in a 3 year-old's hands is liking handing a drunk person a weapon. Loss of motor skills is one of the effects of alcohol, and lack of motor skills is one of the effects of being 3.

By all means, nothing wrong with teaching a 3 year-old about guns. If, however, you were giving your 3 year-old child unsupervised access to a loaded firearm, you were successful because you were lucky. Has nothing to do with how well you taught them, and everything to do with human biology.

[visaveteran 1]

Damn, just when Yes Man and Moxicillan were starting to build a deep intimate relationship, an issue has arisen. So...can a Vermont, alledged racist, gun freak, trainer of 3 year old sharpshooters find true happiness with a San Francisco values, Keith Olberman wannabee?

Stay tuned...

[mox 298]

Funny, I think the same thing about you.

I've never denied stirring the pot, the point was that unlike you I'm actually giving a hand to other filers as well.

Show me the CR-1 post. I don't see it.

You didn't say the magic word, so no cookie for you. But here's the thread: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=245951

[mox 298]

And...only an idiot would expose a 3 year old to lead poisoning from touching and handling a firearm which is coated with lead and other heavy metals.

THIS is actually a great point. Exposure to lead, heavy metals, and gun cleaning chemicals isn't good for anyone, but it's really bad for a developing child, especially given how orally fixated your average 3 year-old is.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hey vv, remember when I asked if you actually contributed any USEFUL information, and you said that why yes you did when you could but most people didn't file CR1 like you did? Well did you notice there was somebody looking for CR1 information yesterday? I noticed that, and I noticed your absence in providing useful information to a fellow CR1 filer. Kinda makes me think you really are here just to stir the pot and nothing else.

I think if you will read through my description of the true factual account of educating my children, you will not find any reference to unsupervised 3 year olds with loaded firearms. They were not allowed unsupervised use of loaded firearms until somewhere around age 10, maybe age 9, I do not remember exactly. I recall the first time my oldest son set out on his first advanture with a loaded rifle and I recall not being nervous about it, but I couldn't give you the exact date.

For VV, while I nearly fell asleep reading Mox's dissertation of cranial development, I did not read that he disagrees with teaching 3 year olds gun safety. It really is of no consequence to me which portion of their brain absorbed the flat that a long, non-rotating extractor is superior in its effectiveness. It is only important they know it.

[mox 298]

I think if you will read through my description of the true factual account of educating my children, you will not find any reference to unsupervised 3 year olds with loaded firearms. They were not allowed unsupervised use of loaded firearms until somewhere around age 10, maybe age 9, I do not remember exactly. I recall the first time my oldest son set out on his first advanture with a loaded rifle and I recall not being nervous about it, but I couldn't give you the exact date.

Except that some time ago you mentioned that you keep loaded guns in just about every area of your house. I specifically remember a (shotgun?) being behind the kitchen door or something like that. Are you saying that this only came about after your children were grown?

For VV, while I nearly fell asleep reading Mox's dissertation of cranial development, I did not read that he disagrees with teaching 3 year olds gun safety. It really is of no consequence to me which portion of their brain absorbed the flat that a long, non-rotating extractor is superior in its effectiveness. It is only important they know it.

As a parent, it should be. If a responsible gun owner should know their gun, gun safety, and local regulations pretty much inside and out, then certainly a parent should know about how their child's thought process works, especially if you're exposing them to firearms. If you don't understand how your child's reasoning skills work--and why--then you've just increased their risk of injury or death by magnitudes. Celebrating ignorance doesn't make you clever, it makes you ignorant.

Edited March 10, 2010 by mox

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

And...only an idiot would expose a 3 year old to lead poisoning from touching and handling a firearm which is coated with lead and other heavy metals.

Funny, I think the same thing about you.

Horsesqueeze.

Inorganic lead used in firearm bullets has never been found to be a source of lead poisoning. People who protest shooting ranges have forever tried to use this argument without affect. Most famously with the Lincoln Park Gun Club in Chicago. After 75 years of firing lead pellets into the lake, there was no increase in lead levels in the water. They tested over and over again. Same result. Finally, anti-gun Mayor Daley did just what he wanted...close the shooting range for no reason. Airborne lead from the lead styphnate used in priming compound has, when concentrated in enclosed areas (unventilated indoor shooting ranges) My guns are not "covered in lead" as I clean them regularly after shooting. Many of the guns they handled had never been fired. They are now in their late 20s and early 30s and have no effects of lead poisoning. What a dufus.

Non-lead bullets are advertised because...

1. There are ignorant people that will buy them based on such advertisement and unfounded fear.

2. Some types of non-lead hunting rifle bullets give increased performance over jacketed lead bullets for hunting purposes (lead/alloy jacket bullets have always been a compromise and not without serious flaws in performance)

3. Ignorant people have passed laws in some areas requiring them. This is actually an attempt to eliminate shooting/hunting by anti-hunting/anti-gun people and plays on other people's ignorance.

some people buy dimmer switches thinking they will save energy also. So what?

Only a person ignorant of firearms or trying to start an argument over nothing would say something so patently ignorant. Only somoene else ignorant of the facts would assume he has a good point. sheeesh. By age 3 my sons knew better.

[visaveteran 1]

Horsesqueeze.

Inorganic lead used in firearm bullets has never been found to be a source of lead poisoning. People who protest shooting ranges have forever tried to use this argument without affect. Most famously with the Lincoln Park Gun Club in Chicago. After 75 years of firing lead pellets into the lake, there was no increase in lead levels in the water. They tested over and over again. Same result. Finally, anti-gun Mayor Daley did just what he wanted...close the shooting range for no reason. Airborne lead from the lead styphnate used in priming compound has, when concentrated in enclosed areas (unventilated indoor shooting ranges) My guns are not "covered in lead" as I clean them regularly after shooting. Many of the guns they handled had never been fired. They are now in their late 20s and early 30s and have no effects of lead poisoning. What a dufus.

Non-lead bullets are advertised because...

1. There are ignorant people that will buy them based on such advertisement and unfounded fear.

2. Some types of non-lead hunting rifle bullets give increased performance over jacketed lead bullets for hunting purposes (lead/alloy jacket bullets have always been a compromise and not without serious flaws in performance)

3. Ignorant people have passed laws in some areas requiring them. This is actually an attempt to eliminate shooting/hunting by anti-hunting/anti-gun people and plays on other people's ignorance.

some people buy dimmer switches thinking they will save energy also. So what?

Only a person ignorant of firearms or trying to start an argument over nothing would say something so patently ignorant. Only somoene else ignorant of the facts would assume he has a good point. sheeesh. By age 3 my sons knew better.

Lead exposure from shooting is real. That's why the NRA range has the best ventilation system available. And it's why the range urges everyone to wash their hands after shooting. In addition, there is mercury exposure from primers.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Except that some time ago you mentioned that you keep loaded guns in just about every area of your house. I specifically remember a (shotgun?) being behind the kitchen door or something like that. Are you saying that this only came about after your children were grown?

As a parent, it should be. If a responsible gun owner should know their gun, gun safety, and local regulations pretty much inside and out, then certainly a parent should know about how their child's thought process works, especially if you're exposing them to firearms. If you don't understand how your child's reasoning skills work--and why--then you've just increased their risk of injury or death by magnitudes. Celebrating ignorance doesn't make you clever, it makes you ignorant.

It is an elephant rifle. Winchester M70 Safari, .375 H&H with a Leupold 2.5x scope. Yes, I didn't even own this house (or that rifle) until they were well into their 20s. The youngest in this house now is 15. He knows enough not to touch guns unless I am with him and then he can look at them all he wants, shoot them, etc. Next week that same kid will take his driver's permit test and start driving a car...on public roads. He has been driving them on private roads and parking lots snce the day after he arrived in the US. Betcha he passes his test on the first try. Firearms are not a mystery or a curiosity in this house. Again, I never suggested unsupervised use of firearms by 3 year olds. In fact the education program is designed to prevent exactly that.

[mox 298]

So glad we're talking about science, we're speaking my language now. Inorganic lead (Lead(II) Nitrate) is classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as "probably carcinogenic to humans." [the link is a PDF] Granted, the research doesn't conclusively identify it as a carcinogen, but then gravity is still just a theory too. If you want to gamble your children's health on "maybe not though," it's sadly your right as a parent.

As for me, I'm going to place my trust in the IARC over the Lincoln Park Gun Club and their studies which may or may not have been scientific--I have no way of knowing without citations.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Except that some time ago you mentioned that you keep loaded guns in just about every area of your house. I specifically remember a (shotgun?) being behind the kitchen door or something like that. Are you saying that this only came about after your children were grown?

As a parent, it should be. If a responsible gun owner should know their gun, gun safety, and local regulations pretty much inside and out, then certainly a parent should know about how their child's thought process works, especially if you're exposing them to firearms. If you don't understand how your child's reasoning skills work--and why--then you've just increased their risk of injury or death by magnitudes. Celebrating ignorance doesn't make you clever, it makes you ignorant.

How did you train your children about firearms Mox? It seems my method was highly successful, and though it is a bit late now, maybe you would tell us how your children learned to shoot, hunt, clean guns and be responsible with firearms. Maybe I was lucky, and maybe my parents, who raised 8 kids with firearms were just lucky. We are a pretty lucky family I guess.

I do not think parents need to be neurologists to teach their children basic responsibility. Seeing and handling firearms every day of their life, from birth, is guaranteed to acclimate them to the existance of them. When they get out of that crib all by themselves and start to explore...the curiosity of firearms is already satisfied. I don't know which part of the brain makes it so, I don't care which part of the brain makes it so. I have three brothers who are physicians and they probably know, but then they taught their children the same also. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that children go for the forbidden fruit, the things that you try to hide, they try to get. They do not try to play with the guns hanging on their bedroom walls since before they were born.