Guns and Pie

[visaveteran 1]

Mox, reporting kids to the principal is not my style. Besides, I doubt the mods would dare to censor the mighty Mox.

Yesterday, I did hear a moderator or two warn about making potentially "racist" or group biased comments, so this conversation was never going anywhere. And you knew it...probably why you keep on about it.

One reason social science can't go into such areas as race and crime with total objectivity is it's political suicide. But I find it amusing that even you talk about racking your gun only in '"bad neighborhoods." What did YOU mean by "bad neighborhoods."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Mox, reporting kids to the principal is not my style. Besides, I doubt the mods would dare to censor the mighty Mox.

Yesterday, I did hear a moderator or two warn about making potentially "racist" or group biased comments, so this conversation was never going anywhere. And you knew it...probably why you keep on about it.

One reason social science can't go into such areas as race and crime with total objectivity is it's political suicide. But I find it amusing that even you talk about racking your gun only in '"bad neighborhoods." What did YOU mean by "bad neighborhoods."

I remember that was the condition 1 argument. For the record, I carry my .45 in condition 1 in Vermont, 96.4% white. That is just proof I am not racist!!!!!!

[Martyshk 137]

I am what you would call a flaming liberal. But I am behind a 2nd amendment a 100%.

I used to carry a gun when I lived in Center City. I know how to use it and when to use it.

Once I moved out to suburbs, I don't carry it anymore.

I am a little bit unsure if I'd want everyone in Philly over 18 carrying a gun. I mean, yeah, it's not Vermont And Camden is right over the bridge hehe.

Too many idiots from suburbs come to the Center City and think since they have a gun they are just omfg so "cool".

In the inner city it's all totally different. I swear, there should be checkposts by Penn's Landing where if you are from suburbia and you carry a gun - you aren't allowed in.

This has nothing to do with what you guys have been talking about, just my useless 2cents.

[Nasturtium 500]

Does this thread still involve pie too? I made this pie over the break just after my accident. I had pre-made the crust and frozen it and it was still great. I used a berry mix (blackberries, raspberries, and some strawberries) and it was heavenly. I also cheated and bought a frozen peach pie from the store and it was also good-- I mean, come on, it's pie! Pie=always the right thing to do. I was thinking that this summer/fall I may make a pie involving elderberries. I made jams this year out of varying things including elderberries I gathered. It was pretty good.

Hmm, I just realized this is my 3rd serious post this evening in here. I should break this up with something crazy. This vicodin not only doesn't work to put me to sleep or kill all the pain, but it also creates a serious poster.

[slim 1,523]

I am a little bit unsure if I'd want everyone in Philly over 18 carrying a gun. I mean, yeah, it's not Vermont And Camden is right over the bridge hehe.

Here's where we get a lot of flack in Ohio's big cities. When people hear "loosening gun control in big cities" they envision all the "undesireable" people who aren't legally allowed to carry a gun anyway walking the streets with firearms, and of course, shooting the "desireable" or "good" people, or each other, or everyone. The streets will just be crazy, like the wild, wild west.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. When gun control laws are loosened, that doesn't entitle EVERYONE to carry a gun, it just entitles those who would otherwise be legal to carry a gun to carry one. The "bad people" are still not allowed to possess firearms, and that will not change. It will still be illegal for them to carry a gun. It will ALWAYS be illegal for them to carry a gun.

22 pages ago when we were actually talking about issues instead of who kissed who's boyfriend, mox dropped a humdinger and I think I understood it as - "more guns does NOT equal less crime." He proved it with statistical analysis and math (and you can only disprove math so far) so we can accept that to be true. In fact, more guns does NOT equal less crime. However, Gary came right back with a humdinger of his own. I interpreted that as "white people in Vermont who have no criminal records and a whole mess of guns don't kill nearly as many other white people in Vermont who also don't have criminal records and own a whole mess of guns" He posted statistical data to prove his points so we know they're true as well. White people in Vermont who don't have criminal records don't tend to kill other white people in Vermont - even though they all have guns.

So, what does all that mean?

Well, if you ask me, what it means is "More guns IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT CRIMINAL RECORDS equals less crime." You can substitute any color of people and any state you want, but according to the proof you girls have been providing all along, you're both right, you just needed to say it in a different way.

And that brings us back to (what I believe was) mox's original point about "sensible gun legislation." It's not that people are against proliferation of arms, it's just that they're not convinced it can be done while limiting access to those with criminal records. That's where the "sensible" part comes in.

So, instead of arguing over which shade of brown people shoot each other more often, let's argue over the best way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and in the hands of those without criminal records. Shall we?

Does this thread still involve pie too? I made this pie over the break just after my accident. I had pre-made the crust and frozen it and it was still great. I used a berry mix (blackberries, raspberries, and some strawberries) and it was heavenly. I also cheated and bought a frozen peach pie from the store and it was also good-- I mean, come on, it's pie! Pie=always the right thing to do. I was thinking that this summer/fall I may make a pie involving elderberries. I made jams this year out of varying things including elderberries I gathered. It was pretty good.

Hmm, I just realized this is my 3rd serious post this evening in here. I should break this up with something crazy. This vicodin not only doesn't work to put me to sleep or kill all the pain, but it also creates a serious poster.

Welcome back, julianna! Glad to see your typing fingers are working. We're always serious over here in the RUBbers forum - we just like to be serious with a smile!

Hope to see you around and yes, pie is always acceptable!

[Der Bücherwurm 1]

Does this thread still involve pie too? I made this pie over the break just after my accident. I had pre-made the crust and frozen it and it was still great. I used a berry mix (blackberries, raspberries, and some strawberries) and it was heavenly. I also cheated and bought a frozen peach pie from the store and it was also good-- I mean, come on, it's pie! Pie=always the right thing to do. I was thinking that this summer/fall I may make a pie involving elderberries. I made jams this year out of varying things including elderberries I gathered. It was pretty good.

Hmm, I just realized this is my 3rd serious post this evening in here. I should break this up with something crazy. This vicodin not only doesn't work to put me to sleep or kill all the pain, but it also creates a serious poster.

lol

I'm sure these guys are just dieing to discuss pie.

I'd love to make my husband a blueberry cobbler but blueberries are so expensive here. Maybe i'll make him a raspberry or strawberry one instead sometime. I really like the flavor of blackberries but for some reason the little seeds bother me. Oddly, the seeds in raspberries don't for some reason though I know they're pretty much the same.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Slim

It is true that convicted felons are banned by federal law from possessing or carrying firearms, even in Vermont. Vermont does not have background checks or permits though, hence the phrase "anyone can carry a concealed handgun in Vermont" It is true, but it would be illegal for a convicted felon to do so. We, seemingly, do not have so many convicted felons. Our prisons are vacant to the point that most of the inmates belong to other states...Vermont rents cell space to other states. It is probably a sizable per cent of our non-white population, come to think of it.

Vermont legislators have been astute enough to realize criminals, being criminals, will carry guns illegal (by definiton they violate the law) so making non-criminals jump through hoops to get a permit is rather silly and serves only a political purpose, not a real one. Though I wish we had the option for a permit as does the only other state to allow permitless concealed carry...Alaska. My wonderful right does not extend beyond the borders of Vermont because I have no permit for another state to recognize! We actually tried that a couple years ago and the legislature voted it down as imposing a restriction on our rights! I told you, they will not even consider a firearms law in the liberal bastion of Vermont.

The subject of crime and firearms will always require dscussing some uncomfortable things. get over it. Gun control has been and always will be a form of race control. banning "Saturday Night SpecialS" was an attempt to disarm poor minorities and nothing else. Discretionary carry permits have so frequently been ruled discriminatory it is not even a question anymore. The absence of gun laws in states with an absence of minorities is another form of proof. White people do not make gun laws to restrict access to firearms by other white people. Truth. Deal with it. The 2nd amendment is about having the abilty to stage an armed revolt against the government, not about duck hunting. Some people get queasy and run off when the truth comes to the surface rather than face facts. Were the population of Vermont to increase to 15% minority, or 20% instead of 3.6%, how much do you want to bet there would be a whole bunch of gun laws passed? If that bothers you, stick your head back in the sand!

[baron555 934]

Hey, you guys had a Eureka moment and didn't even know it.

It's Criminals and those with Criminal Records that cause crimes!!! It has nothing to do with the color of their skin or their native country....only the fact that they are criminals or have criminal records.

So in states where you get a bunch of these together, you have crime!!!!

Duh, it's so simple. In states where are no bunches of criminals or those with criminal records, carrying guns by law abiding citizens really is not required, since there is little crime to begin with (like Vermont).

In states where there are bunches of criminals and those with criminal records, then a good argument can be made that law abiding citizens should be able to help out the helpless police to keep these malcontents in order.

Or just to make it all equal, all law abiding citizens should be able to carry if they choose since in many states they are surrounded by criminals and those with criminal records.

Now the libs should start shouting about the criminal's rights. And the why some folks of certain skin color or ethnic backgrounds tend to form a larger portion of these groups of criminals or those with criminal records is really a different discussion.

[justashooter 430]

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/80324842.html

21 face gun-trafficking charges in crackdown

A 61-year-old man who shot his 16-year-old autistic son to death last month, then shot himself, got his gun from a straw purchaser, authorities said yesterday.

Segundo Duque shot his son, Fabian, once in the head after pulling over in his minivan at Wyoming Avenue and H Street, in Juniata Park, on the morning of Nov. 9, police have said.

He then drove nearly two miles to Sanger Street and Loretto Avenue, in Summerdale, where he parked near St. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic Church and shot himself in the head shortly after 6 that morning, police said.

Yesterday, the District Attorney's Office said the 9 mm handgun used by Duque was purchased for him by Neisha Valle, 23, of O Street near Hunting Park Avenue, in Juniata Park.

Valle was one of 21 people investigated by the city-state Gun Violence Task Force, who were recently arrested or who are expected to be arrested on gun trafficking and related charges.

Duque, of Paul Street near Torresdale Avenue, in East Frankford, had shown signs of being drunk that morning, when he had first gone armed to the home of an ex-girlfriend. After an argument with the woman, during which he pulled his gun out, she escaped unharmed, police said.

It was later that morning when he shot his son, then killed himself, police have said.

Valle faces a March 10 preliminary hearing on tampering with public records and gun charges.

Since the task force began in December 2006, it has opened 1,207 investigations, made 395 arrests and seized 743 firearms. To date, 157 people have been convicted of gun-related offenses.

District Attorney Lynne Abraham said in a news release that the success of the task force - combined with her office's legislative efforts and the First Judicial District's gun court - has resulted in fewer homicides and fewer gunshot injuries.

Others recently arrested were:

* Linda Woods, aka Deborah Cromwell, 53, of Bouvier Street near Erie Avenue.

* Ilisabeth Neerenberg, 37, of Rosewood Street near Ritner.

* Lawrence Washington, 26, of Sigel Street near 22nd.

* Lakisha Lewis, 25, of Leiper Street near Dyre.

* Omar Bulli, 27, of Woodbine Avenue near 76th Street.

* Uranus Ladson, 42, of 4th Street near Reed, and Tyrneika Brown, 22, of Darby.

* Jayson Miller, 29, of Hortter Street near Ross.

* William Stewart, 55 of Berks Street near 54th.

* Jack Belani, 25, of Norristown, and Wenjue Liu, 26, of Yardley.

* Anthony Poindexter, aka Francis Furr, 32, of Cross Street near 6th.

* Patrick Kersey, 20, and John Cooper, 28, both of Vandike Street near Hellerman.

* Adiyah Weston-Eskridge, 31, of 55th Street near Wyalusing Avenue.

* Raoul McDaniels, 39, of Mount Pleasant Avenue near Provident Street.

* Simir Boyd, 21, of 22nd Street near McKean.

Meanwhile, arrest warrants have been issued for:

* Tyree Berry, 24, of Saybrook Avenue near 72nd Street.

* Danielle Demaio, 24, of Gratz Street near Wingohocking.

* Maurice Boykin, 26, of Latona Street near 32nd.

Ilisabeth Neerenberg

Lakisha Lewis

Omar Bulli

Uranus Ladson

Tyrneika Brown

Jayson

Adiyah Weston-Eskridge

Simir

Tyree

Could we at least get Spell-Check installed in urban hospitals, so future criminals can be named with some consistency?

They can't keep the criminals off the street, but they want to take away my right to defend myself. Makes perfect sense. The greater the risk is to me the less I can fight back. Uh huh. Sure. In some bizarro parallel universe maybe.

Message: If you're going to commit a crime with a gun, do it in Philly!

Here's part of the story from the front page of today's Inquirer. (Full story at this link: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front...d__Denied.html )

By Craig R. McCoy, Nancy Phillips, and Dylan Purcell

Inquirer Staff Writers

Kareem Johnson stood over Walter Smith and executed him. He fired so close that Smith's blood splashed up onto Johnson's Air Jordan baseball cap.

He shot him as a favor to a childhood friend.

Smith was a threat because he had come forward as a witness in a murder case against Clinton Robinson.

With the witness dead, Robinson cut a sweet deal. He pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and was sentenced to just 2 1/2 to five years.

"Basically, I beat it," he says now.

He and Johnson know all about beating cases in the Philadelphia courts. In just three years, Johnson, 26, and Robinson, 24, were arrested a total of nine times for gun crimes, but until the charges escalated to murder, nothing stuck.

Johnson's bloodletting came to an end only after he killed a 10-year-old boy in 2004 in one of the city's most notorious murders. As for Robinson, he's locked up on a drug charge, but expects to go free soon.

The two men's violent path from the streets into the courts and back again vividly illustrates the failure of Philadelphia's criminal justice system.

It is a system that all too often fails to punish violent criminals, fails to protect witnesses, fails to catch thousands of fugitives, fails to decide cases on their merits - fails to provide justice.

In America's most violent big city, people accused of serious crimes are escaping conviction with stunning regularity, an Inquirer investigation has found.

Philadelphia defendants walk free on all charges in nearly two-thirds of violent-crime cases. Among large urban counties, Philadelphia has the nation's lowest felony-conviction rate.

Only one in 10 people charged with gun assaults is convicted of that charge, the newspaper found.

Only two in 10 accused armed robbers are found guilty of armed robbery.

Only one in four accused rapists is found guilty of rape.

The data also show that people charged with assaults with a gun escape conviction more often than those who use fists or knives. Of people arrested for possession of illegal handguns, almost half go free.

Nationally, prosecutors in big cities win felony convictions in half of violent-crime cases, according to federal studies. In Philadelphia, prosecutors win only 20 percent.

In a comprehensive analysis of the Philadelphia criminal courts, The Inquirer traced the outcomes of 31,000 criminal court cases filed in 2006, 2007, and 2008, tracking their dispositions through early this year. The results go a long way toward explaining the violence on city streets.

"We have a system that is on the brink of overall collapse," said Pennsylvania Supreme Court Justice Seamus P. McCaffery, a former Philadelphia judge and a longtime critic of the courts' high dismissal rate, after reviewing The Inquirer's findings.

[justashooter 430]

NRA-ILA GRASSROOTS ALERT

Vol. 16, No. 51 12/30/09

FBI Reports Huge Decrease In Murders

As Firearm, Ammunition And "Large" Magazine Sales Soar

Last week, the FBI issued its preliminary 2009 crime report, showing that the number of murders in the first half of 2009 decreased 10 percent compared to the first half of 2008. If the trend holds for the remainder of 2009, it will be the single greatest one-year decrease in the number of murders since at least 1960, the earliest year for which national data are available through the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Also, the per capita murder rate for 2009 will be 51 percent lower than the all-time high recorded in 1991, and it will be the lowest rate since 1963 - a 46-year low. Final figures for 2009 will be released by the FBI next year.

According to gun control supporter dogma - "more guns means more crime" - the number of privately owned firearms must have decreased 10 percent in 2009. To the contrary, however, the number rose between 1.5 and 2 percent, to an all-time high. For the better part of the last 15 months, firearms, ammunition, and "large" ammunition magazines have been sold in what appear to be record quantities. And, the firearms that were most commonly purchased in 2009 are those that gun control supporters most want to be banned - AR-15s, similar semi-automatic rifles, and handguns designed for defense. The National Shooting Sports Foundation already estimates record ammunition sales in 2009, dominated by .223 Remington, 7.62x39mm, 9mm and other calibers widely favored for defensive purposes.

Also indicative of the upward trend in firearm sales, the number of national instant check transactions rose 24.5 percent in the first six months of 2009 compared to the first six months in 2008, the greatest increase since NICS' inception in 1998. Through the end of October, NICS transactions rose18 percent, compared to the same period in 2008.

More Guns Means More Crime? Hardly. In 2009, more guns meant less crime, in a very, very big way.

[Martyshk 137]

Slim,

My point was mostly about a 19 year old retards from city's outskirts, who, yes - do not have a criminal record. Actually, I phrased it wrong to begin with.

I am not worried about people in the city getting more guns. I am worried about the retards from suburbia coming over to the city with their guns.

At least out in the boonies in Pennsyltucky people know how to use guns and they grow up shooting guns.

In any case, I am ill equipped for this conversation

[Martyshk 137]

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/80324842.html

Yeah, Detroit got nothing on us! NOTHING I SAY!!!

[visaveteran 1]

Mox wants to see a study on guns and crime. That might be interesting, but the important study, IMO, is how many people used guns to intervene in the commission of crimes?

As I said before, guns will not deter crimes of passion or insanity...or even street hardened punks and addicts. Yes, the value of guns may to some degree involve deterrence, but the gun's greater value is in stopping crime as it occurs. We need to understand this truth. Some people will not be afraid to confront citizens with guns.

[baron555 934]

Mox wants to see a study on guns and crime. That might be interesting, but the important study, IMO, is how many people used guns to intervene in the commission of crimes?

As I said before, guns will not deter crimes of passion or insanity...or even street hardened punks and addicts. Yes, the value of guns may to some degree involve deterrence, but the gun's greater value is in stopping crime as it occurs. We need to understand this truth. Some people will not be afraid to confront citizens with guns.

True but to add to the that study would be some idea of how much knowledge that the ordinary citizen might be carrying does to deter a possible crime.

True, the deranged will always be, but not every criminal is, so to speak, deranged.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hey, you guys had a Eureka moment and didn't even know it.

It's Criminals and those with Criminal Records that cause crimes!!! It has nothing to do with the color of their skin or their native country....only the fact that they are criminals or have criminal records.

So in states where you get a bunch of these together, you have crime!!!!

Duh, it's so simple. In states where are no bunches of criminals or those with criminal records, carrying guns by law abiding citizens really is not required, since there is little crime to begin with (like Vermont).

In states where there are bunches of criminals and those with criminal records, then a good argument can be made that law abiding citizens should be able to help out the helpless police to keep these malcontents in order.

Or just to make it all equal, all law abiding citizens should be able to carry if they choose since in many states they are surrounded by criminals and those with criminal records.

Now the libs should start shouting about the criminal's rights. And the why some folks of certain skin color or ethnic backgrounds tend to form a larger portion of these groups of criminals or those with criminal records is really a different discussion.

OK. agreed. Crime is caused by criminals. So the reason Vermont can hanlde permitless concealed carry is ...no criminals (or very few anyway) But why? why does Vermont have so few criminals compared to say, your state Baron, Illinois? I do not think it is something in the water or air, do you?

Also in theory it may be true that we don't need to carry handguns, because there is so little need for them for self defense, but we aren't taking chances. It COULD be the reason there are so few criminals. If one looks at the statistics of our neighboring states and Quebec, there is a huge difference. Why does Clinton County, NY directly across the lake from Chittenden County Vermont have so much more crime? There is no comparison. Population is similar, they have LESS minorities in Clinton County NY (so much for my theory, eh?) and while they require a permit for concealed carry, local scuttlebut is that Clinton County hands out the permits pretty freely (In NY they have discretionary carry which is determined by each county). Montreal has a far higher rate of crime than Burlington VT. They have a virtual ban on privately owned handguns. NH has a higher rate of crime, freely issues conceald carry permits and has a very small minority population, and really is a pretty safe place though marginally worse than Vermont it is in the same "class". Massachussets is OFF THE CHARTS in comparison. High minority population and strict gun control, discretionary permits that are issued only to political insiders.

Obviously MA, NY, and QC have a larger population of criminals, and even NH to an extent. So why aren't the criminals coming to Vermont, there is no fence to keep them out? Vermont is a pretty affluent state and almost no one locks their doors. Lots of good stuff that isn't locked up. Burglars could drive up from NY or MA and have a field day in Vermont. Why don't they? The local museum leaves a donation bucket on the sidewalk. why does no one steal the money? Local stores leave the cash register open when they go out for lunch and tell you to make your own change. The local gas station leaves his pumps on at night so you can fill up after he closes...come back tomorrow and pay him for what you bought, or wrote a check and stick it through the mail slot. "pay before pumping" is an insult! Now most of this has nothing to do with guns...but why can't that be done in your neigborhood? What prevents people from stealing gas? No one is there to shoot them. And why does your neihborhood have more criminals than mine?

I believe it is because we have created an un-freindly climate for criminals. Such behavior is simply not acceptable. Respect for peoples property and work is acceptable...ALL people and ALL work. Drug dealers are not heroes to local children. The government is not a substitute father. It is not "cool" to be a bad guy, it is "cool" to be a good guy. And yes, we have guns, criminals are not interested in opening business in Vermont.