Guns and Pie

[visaveteran 1]

Yes, stereotyping is troublesome because you have to dodge the PC police even when data supports issues. Yes, I too dislike stereotyping, like when black Van Jones (the now infamous former Obama czar) stated that only white kids shoot up schools. Guess he missed the news that a Korean kid shoot 32 people at VA Tech.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

That sure is a lot of words to say "Crime is lower in Vermont because we have guns and we don't have black and brown people." Yeah, I'd have been coy about that logical leap too.

You came to that conclusion on your own. It isn't diffcult given the facts and demographics.

Yes, stereotyping is troublesome because you have to dodge the PC police even when data supports issues. Yes, I too dislike stereotyping, like when black Van Jones (the now infamous former Obama czar) stated that only white kids shoot up schools. Guess he missed the news that a Korean kid shoot 32 people at VA Tech.

When data supports conclusions it is not stereotyping, it is fact. FACTs are not politically correct. They are just facts.

[mox 298]

You came to that conclusion on your own. It isn't diffcult given the facts and demographics.

...

When data supports conclusions it is not stereotyping, it is fact. FACTs are not politically correct. They are just facts.

Again with the coyness...cute. I've been known to take a contrary position, but at least I have the guts to state my position clearly. Why not go on record with exactly what you believe the facts to show Gary?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Again with the coyness...cute. I've been known to take a contrary position, but at least I have the guts to state my position clearly. Why not go on record with exactly what you believe the facts to show Gary?

Mox, really. Lets speak about guts. "Pitcairn Islands"? Lets speak about positions. You say I do not state my position but that you have been known to "take a contrary position". I'm confused. If I have not stated a position, how can you disagree?

It is not necessarily my purpose to state a position. We diverged into this cause of crime realm and you have stated (I think, but you are not clear) that the reason for less crime is not necessarliy guns or lack thereof. You haven't answered the question I posed (speaking of lack of guts, it is easier to just ignore things when you are a phony liberal as opposed to a true liberal). Why can't people of other states handle the freedom of unregulated carrying of cocealed weapons? You tried with the total population excuse, but it doesn't work (of course it doesn't work, Vermonts population is far more dense than Quebec's and we have a far lower crime rate than our neighbor with a virtual ban on handguns) Our population is more dense than probably a half dozen other states that cannot handle this freedom, and more dense than Quebec.

I have stated exactly what the facts show. Vermont has the lowest crime rate. Vermont has a very homogenous population, virtually no diversity. We have an international border, quite large relative to our size, in fact larger than California, New Mexico or Arizona relative to our total square miles. The border is with Canada, not Mexico. We have a very active drug smuggling community in Vermont, even one of the mountain passes near here is called "smugglers notch" and not without reason. There is an Indian reservation that straddles the border where federal agents cannot patrol and is basically an open door to Canada. There is no fence between Vermont and Canada, you can walk across the border and not even know you have walked across the border. we still have several "border crossings" with no enforcement or check stations (these are dwindling but at least four still exist for vehicle traffic) we have several "cross border" towns where the town is, literally split and shared by Vermont and Quebec, including emergency services. we get our electricity from HydroQuebec. We have a huge lake, the northern 1/4 of which is IN Canada (the north end of the island I live on is in Canada, I can freely drive up my road into Canada with no border crossing, of course I can't get off the island in that direction either, so what's the point?) There is another very large lake of which more than half is in Quebec, just to our east. There is no border crossing or regulation for boats, they can freely travel back and forth across the border on the water. There is NO murder on the border. No drug wars, no cartels killing each other. Not a single case of random homocide in over three years. Kidnappings are virtually non-existent. How does, say, Juarez compare with , say, Montreal?

So what is the difference between drug smugglers working the US/Canada border and those working the US/Mexico border? Guns? I doubt it, Mox, and you know as well as I do that isn't the reason.

[mox 298]

Really? You're going to compare my display of a country icon clearly meant to be a joke to your own unwillingness to state your position on what you've taken pains to present?

When I said I have been known to take a "contrary position," I meant in general. You said you haven't stated a position. How about growing a pair and state your position, plainly and clearly? You keep implying the data shows something. What does it show Gary?

Coward. I take a lot of ####### for some of my positions, but I also take a lot of pains to state those positions plainly and clearly, and in a manner in which there can be no doubt as to where I stand. You hide smugly behind a wall of text because coming out and saying what you really believe might just generate more blowback than you care to deal with. Coward.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So lets see if you have the guts to answer a couple other questions. My guess is you wll ignore them.

Let's say, for example, that tomorrow the state of Illinois decides that "hey, we are every bit as good and intelligent and freedom loving as those woodchucks in Vermont" and they allow anyone over age 18 to carry concealed weapons with no permit, training, background check...nothing. ANYone from ANYwhere can carry a loaded concealed handgun at ANYtime if they are in Illinois. After some 200 + years we are going to give the people of Illinois the same freedom (and responsibility) as those people in Vermont have had all along.

what will happen in Chicago? What will happen in Evanston? What will happen in Gurnee? What will happen in Waukegan? same thing? I would think so, yes, after all these are bordering communities. What will happen on the south or west side of Chicago as opposed to the Gold Coast region? Same? If not, why? What will happen in Rockford? What will happen in DeKalb? Same thing? If not, why? Will Illinois drop to less than 0.75 homocide per 100,000 population as Vermont has? Will the homocide in Chicago drop to, say, 25 per year? (this would be just slightly above Vermont's murder rate, but close enough) If not, why? Would anyone be pleased if Chicago had only 25 homocides in one year? I think, yes, they would be astounded. So why don't they do it?

What IS it about the population of Chicago or Illinois that makes the difference? This is a "gut test" to see of you will state a logical answer, ignore it (my guess) or mumble some irrelevent babble.

[visaveteran 1]

Mox, calling a man a coward is harsh and sounds close to a personal attack to me. And it is also badgering a poster. Or are you just stirring the pot once again to get someone riled up. A hobby perhaps?

I won't speak for Gary but the Pitcairn Island "joke" simply underscores you hiding out about your visa journey. Most of us are on here to share our stories with at least an element of personal details. This ads authenticity and realism to someone's comments. Your comments, for me, lack credibility due to your failure to be more forthcoming.

You have your reasons not to answer direct questions...so does Gary. You seem like a hypocrite to me...calling the kettle black.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Really? You're going to compare my display of a country icon clearly meant to be a joke to your own unwillingness to state your position on what you've taken pains to present?

When I said I have been known to take a "contrary position," I meant in general. You said you haven't stated a position. How about growing a pair and state your position, plainly and clearly? You keep implying the data shows something. What does it show Gary?

Coward. I take a lot of ####### for some of my positions, but I also take a lot of pains to state those positions plainly and clearly, and in a manner in which there can be no doubt as to where I stand. You hide smugly behind a wall of text because coming out and saying what you really believe might just generate more blowback than you care to deal with. Coward.

You still haven't stated a position or answered the question. We will see.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Really? You're going to compare my display of a country icon clearly meant to be a joke to your own unwillingness to state your position on what you've taken pains to present?

When I said I have bee n known to take a "contrary position," I meant in general. You said you haven't stated a position. How about growing a pair and state your position, plainly and clearly? You keep implying the data shows something. What does it show Gary?

Coward. I take a lot of ####### for some of my positions, but I also take a lot of pains to state those positions plainly and clearly, and in a manner in which there can be no doubt as to where I stand. You hide smugly behind a wall of text because coming out and saying what you really believe might just generate more blowback than you care to deal with. Coward.

Your statement of having a wife from Pitcairn islands is a joke? seems to me it is not a joke as I recall. Be that as it may, you have now accused me of not stating a position twice while not stating one yourself and have sunken to name calling, which I never do. I won't report it as I am a big boy but if Gigii comes along and it offends her Canadian manners I won't be responsible.

[HannahP 119]

Our crime rate is the lowest or 2nd lowest (depedns on the year you check) in the nation and we can all carry guns concealed without the need for permits or training. You will find similar demograohics for our rival for lowest crime rate...North Dakota. North dakota has "shall issue" concealed carry with no training required, just a background check. Other than Vermont's, this type concealed carry legislation is as "loose" as it gets.

How odd that you'd QUOTE something like ND's stats but then use them against yourself. (Because no one lives in ND, unlike VT. I'm not certain why you'd quote this particular statistic when it's obviously apples and oranges. And, yes, I've actually lived in ND for several years so.)

[mox 298]

No Gary. I'm not playing. Not until you very clearly and very concisely state your position based on the facts that you took such great pains to present without actually saying it. I asked you first. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Here, I'll make it easy for you: In your opinion, and based on the facts as you know them, does the lack of non-white people in Vermont contribute to less crime? Yes or no.

@visaveteran: Get over yourself. Report me if your delicate sensibilities are so offended.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

How odd that you'd QUOTE something like ND's stats but then use them against yourself. (Because no one lives in ND, unlike VT. I'm not certain why you'd quote this particular statistic when it's obviously apples and oranges. And, yes, I've actually lived in ND for several years so.)

North Dakota has a higher population (but less density) than Vermont. Vermont is 49th in population, only Wyoming has less people than Vermont. It has similar demographics and a similar crime rate (Vermont and North Dakota often exchange places for lowest crime rate, but this is because 1 or 2 crimes can make a relatively large difference in the rate) I mean if your state has only 11 armed robberies a year, 12 would be nearly a 10% increase. 10 would be a 10% decrease but neither would be statiscally signifacant.

have I explained that well enough for you now?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

No Gary. I'm not playing. Not until you very clearly and very concisely state your position based on the facts that you took such great pains to present without actually saying it. I asked you first. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Here, I'll make it easy for you: In your opinion, and based on the facts as you know them, does the lack of non-white people in Vermont contribute to less crime? Yes or no.

@visaveteran: Get over yourself. Report me if your delicate sensibilities are so offended.

I think I stated that fairly clearly. Vermont is 96.4% white European descent, we have a microscopic crime rate. Yes, a homogenous population contributes to low crime.

For the record, you did not ask first. I did. I asked many many posts ago for you to explain why other states cannot handle the freedom we have here in Vermont, you have ignored it. I posted the information about the demographics (later slightly corrected by another poster) as a hint to you to answer the question. You have yet to answer.

I will make it easy for you and narrow it down. Why can't the people of Chicago handle the freedom of anyone carrying a concealed weapon (or assault rifle on the back seat) the same way we can in Burlington VT.?

will you now please answer?

[mox 298]

I will make it easy for you and narrow it down. Why can't the people of Chicago handle the freedom of anyone carrying a concealed weapon (or assault rifle on the back seat) the same way we can in Burlington VT.?

will you now please answer?

Okay whatever Gary. I have answered your question over the course of this entire thread, you just haven't been listening. The answer is that I don't know why the people of Chicago can't handle the freedom of carrying a concealed weapon (or assault rifle on the back seat) the same way you can in Burlington VT. I don't know, and I'm not going to pretend that I know, and I think it's disingenuous for anybody at this point to say they know. As I have said over and over and over, the issues are complex, the answers are not black and white, and there is very likely not a single answer. Also as I've said over and over and over, I would love to see some definitive studies. But until then, I'm not going to pretend I have those answers.

Anyway, don't bother answering my own question. You've already answered it through omission. The interesting thing about racism is the lengths its practitioners will go to in order to justify it, and the lengths they will go to in order to avoid actually admitting to their racism. "Homogenous" population is a wonderful touch.

I'm done in this thread, feel free to continue without me.

@visaveteran: zomg I just called Gary a racist. Please for ####'s sake report me before I strike again.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Okay whatever Gary. I have answered your question over the course of this entire thread, you just haven't been listening. The answer is that I don't know why the people of Chicago can't handle the freedom of carrying a concealed weapon (or assault rifle on the back seat) the same way you can in Burlington VT. I don't know, and I'm not going to pretend that I know, and I think it's disingenuous for anybody at this point to say they know. As I have said over and over and over, the issues are complex, the answers are not black and white, and there is very likely not a single answer. Also as I've said over and over and over, I would love to see some definitive studies. But until then, I'm not going to pretend I have those answers.

Anyway, don't bother answering my own question. You've already answered it through omission. The interesting thing about racism is the lengths its practitioners will go to in order to justify it, and the lengths they will go to in order to avoid actually admitting to their racism. "Homogenous" population is a wonderful touch.

I'm done in this thread, feel free to continue without me.

@visaveteran: zomg I just called Gary a racist. Please for ####'s sake report me before I strike again.

well I didn't take it you called me a racist. You said that racists go to great lengths to conceal their racism. I am not a racist so why would I be offended or why would that apply to me? I quoted facts. Facts are not racist, they are just facts. You can choose to ignore them or you can choose to learn from them.

A population with 96.4% of one particular component is homogenous. Fact. It is not a "wonderful touch" it is a a fact.

Okay whatever Gary. I have answered your question over the course of this entire thread, you just haven't been listening. The answer is that I don't know why the people of Chicago can't handle the freedom of carrying a concealed weapon (or assault rifle on the back seat) the same way you can in Burlington VT. I don't know, and I'm not going to pretend that I know, and I think it's disingenuous for anybody at this point to say they know. As I have said over and over and over, the issues are complex, the answers are not black and white, and there is very likely not a single answer. Also as I've said over and over and over, I would love to see some definitive studies. But until then, I'm not going to pretend I have those answers.

Anyway, don't bother answering my own question. You've already answered it through omission. The interesting thing about racism is the lengths its practitioners will go to in order to justify it, and the lengths they will go to in order to avoid actually admitting to their racism. "Homogenous" population is a wonderful touch.

I'm done in this thread, feel free to continue without me.

@visaveteran: zomg I just called Gary a racist. Please for ####'s sake report me before I strike again.

You are only pretending you don't know. We'll leave it at that, OK?