Willing to bear arms?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

FYI: I just checked the naturalization guide and it says:

13. I am willing to perform either military or civilian service for the United States if required by law. (NOTE: If your religious teachings and beliefs prohibit you from performing military service, you must be willing to perform non-military service.)

Excellent post, brother toma.

I would NEVER take up arms. EVER. But I would do non-military service.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

FYI: I just checked the naturalization guide and it says:

13. I am willing to perform either military or civilian service for the United States if required by law. (NOTE: If your religious teachings and beliefs prohibit you from performing military service, you must be willing to perform non-military service.)

Excellent post, brother toma.

I would NEVER take up arms. EVER. But I would do non-military service.

As would I - thanks for mentioning this

[Captain Oates 911]

I love the 'without mental reservation ' thing.

How would they know ? Polygraph ?

My mum introduced me to one of the carers at her old people's home and said 'this is my friend' - then she said 'well at least that's what I say, you don't know what I am really thinking do you ?'. It's Brit humour and wouldn't work at all in the U.S. and the speaker would be taken literally and labelled as 'a bad person' who was bound for the fires of hell which are a popular concept in the U.S.

Out of the mouths of people in their 90's and children, come truths that are obvious to them, but too simple for us in between ages.

When I was 9, I was a Primitive Methodist and swore an oath to stay away from alcohol and loose women.

If the USCIS researched my later adherance to that oath, they probably would have doubts about my 'mental reservations' during oath taking. In fact I had none as I was ignorant of what I was supposed to be giving up , just as young soldiers are ignorant of what they are taking on.

I am just a poor boy

Though my story's seldom told

I have squandered my resistance

For a pocket full of mumbles such are promises

All lies and jests

Still a man hears what he wants to hear

And disregards the rest

[NickD 203]

At times, it would be easier to take an oath to bear arms against your tax assessor, the IRS, SS, DMV, DOS, and the USCIS. All of them have the power to make your life miserable, DMV refused to renew her driver's license because they never heard of a one year extension on an expired green card. DOS would only be bad once with the fear of losing that US certificate, but only have to do that once. Met a stubborn guy at SS, but told him off, but his supervisor came in and corrected him. Went straight to my governor with DMV problems and got an apology, and no matter how stupid, laxidazial, or unreasonable the USCIS is, they have absolute control over your life and you always have to be very nice, even though it kills you. And with a LPR card, always need that foreign passport if you want to see your mom, that is yet another foreign government agency to deal with and a lot worse than our DOS. And you are still tied in with the USCIS.

USC can solve many of these problems with a lot more leverage to deal with that tax assessor and the IRS. My wife does love this country and her new home here, and with the prospects of actually called to bear arms against a foreign country very nil in her case, really after considering all the facts, had no problems in taking the oath. The advantages of USC far outweighed this one disadvantage. She did have problems at first with our severe traffic laws, but adapted to that, her country has no speed limits. And she does enjoy the fresher air on our highways with our EPA. She will serve if asked to do so, and if it comes to that, we all will serve to protect our loved ones and our home.

Our journey with the USCIS is far from over, we hope her daughter will receive her USC next summer. And as a USC, wife stands a much better chance of bringing her over 21 unmarried son here.

Found this on the web:

"

<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading">Oath of citizenship (United States)</h1> <h3 id="siteSub">From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</h3> Jump to: navigation, search The United States Oath of Allegiance (officially referred to as the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008)) is an oath that must be taken by all immigrants who wish to become United States citizens. The first officially recorded Oaths of Allegiance were made on May 30th, 1778 at Valley Forge, during the Revolutionary War.

The current oath is as follows:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

[1]

8 C.F.R. 337.1 provides that the phrase "so help me God" is optional and that the words ‘on oath’ can be substituted with ‘and solemnly affirm’. Also, if the prospective citizen can prove such commitments are in violation with his or her religion, the lines "that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform non-combatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by law" are sometimes omitted.

The Oath of Citizenship is not a federal law. Technically, any oath is legal, as long as it meets the "five principles" mandated by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1953. These principles are:

• allegiance to the United States Constitution,
• renunciation of allegiance to any foreign country to which the immigrant has had previous allegiances to
• defense of the Constitution against enemies "foreign and domestic"
• promise to serve in the United States Armed Forces when required by law (either combat or non-combat)
• promise to perform civilian duties of "national importance" when required by law

There has been some controversy about the wording of the oath, parts of which are based on the British Oath of Supremacy which was written in the 16th Century. As a result, some have suggested much of the language is antiquated and confusing. In the fall of 2003 the United States Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services planned to change the oath of citizenship in time for Citizenship Day (September 17).^{[citation needed]} The proposed oath was as followed:

Solemnly, freely, and without mental reservation, I hereby renounce under oath all allegiance to any foreign state. My fidelity and allegiance from this day forward is to the United States of America. I pledge to support, honor, and be loyal to the United States, its Constitution, and its laws. Where and if lawfully required, I further commit myself to defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, either by military, noncombatant, or civilian service. This I do solemnly swear, so help me God.

[2]

The introduction of the new oath was scrapped by the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims on April 1, 2004."

So at least the existing oath as we have it now is being questioned by the powers to be. And this new oath makes far more sense for the huge variety of people that make it. But we had a very incompetent leader at the time so it never passed. I used the word incompetent, but our most famous comedians on aired broadcasts referred to this guy consistently as an a$$hole that we can do in this country. Wife thought that was great living in a nation where you can get away with that. In her country, you would be locked up if you said anything close to that. We are not perfect, but it's up to us to get there and as a USC, do have some power to do that.

[freetv 7]

I think Nick did a pretty good job of explaining everything. The government in the u.s. is full of moronic departments that are full of even dumber people. Even if you think your peacefull now, if some stranger were trying to break down your door to kill you or cause harm to your family... 99.9% of us would reach for any weapon in arms reach... even if that weapon is a loaded gun and it goes against all your personal beliefs. When it comes down to one very very very unlikely event and one very small part of the oath.... the reality is that we will prob never be held to that one part and even if we were... those that say they wouldn't would most likely be the first ones reaching for that gun.

[NickD 203]

As you can tell, bearing arms has been quite an issue around here. But so far my wife as been a USC for 15 months and hasn't been called to duty yet. See what happens tomorrow.

Do you think the country would respond if they start calling mothers with dependent children to bear arms? And even send them to Afghanistan?

[Krikit 1,165]

Also, if the prospective citizen can prove such commitments are in violation with his or her religion, the lines "that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform non-combatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by law" are sometimes omitted.

Given that they tend to process new citizens en masse, I wonder if they have a separate ceremony for those who request this section of the oath be omitted? Does anyone have any experience with this?

[Captain Oates 911]

The religious exemption only comes in if you have received 'religious training'.

If you are your own person and have your own set of ethics and morality and beliefs, (like me) they won't accept this as a religious exemption.

I don't know how many adherants you need for a religion to be classed as a religion - does it have to be registered as a charity for tax exemption ?

I guess every religion starts off as one person believing something but until they get their first X converts and their tax exemption, it won't be classed as religious training.

I bet 99% of immigrants have 'mental reservations' and therefore lie about totally disowning any loyalty or affiliation etc to their original country.

The majority of Canadians in the first world war were actually British emigrees to Canada

quote:(CEF = Canadian expeditionary force)

Seventy percent of the men who enlisted in the CEF were British immigrants, even though British immigrants were just eleven percent of Canada’s population. Anglo-Saxon Canadians whose ancestors had lived in North America for generations had low enlistment rates similar to those seen in French Canadian communities

[NickD 203]

First off, I feel it's same to assume that any natural born USC of the proper age, and back then, their sex, would be called to duty, even though we never said an oath to that effect.

In regards to religion, feel you are jumping the gun on this issue, as since 1973 we had an all volunteer military, so if it's your religious belief not to fight in a war, simple just don't join, no one is twisting your arm to join. But prior to 1973 and dating back to slightly before WW II, we had the draft, and all men were called between the ages of roughly 18 to 35. Where was the ERA back then?

Anyway, if you were called to serve in the armed services, and had religious beliefs against killing another, even a guy that was trying to kill you, you could claim a "conscientious objector" status. That is what they called them back then. Now this would not exempt them from military service, but would exempt them from having to kill someone, so they would either end up being a cook or working in supply.

We can only wonder if the draft would come back to this country, during WW II, wasn't really necessary as most volunteered to serve their country, it did however become very unpopular during the Viet Nam era. Bet if their was a draft today for Iraq and Afghanistan, would be riots in the streets, but since no draft, no one gives a damn.

With this subject in mind, gave me thoughts on what would happen if my mom were drafted at the same time that I was, she was about the age as the OP in this thread when I was drafted.

First thing that came to mind, could fire my first sergeant, wouldn't need him to tell me to clean my room, my mom would make me to that. Could also fire all the MP's that hounded us on a wild night on the town getting drunk and chasing wild women. If my mom was there, would make sure I was in bed at 9:00PM. Could also fire all the cooks, she would cook for me and make sure I ate my vegetables. Sure wouldn't have to be concerned about being AWOL, mom would be there to write me a note. Could also fire all the DI's if she heard their foul language talking that way to her son, she would send them to their rooms without supper, and make them stay there until they learned how to behave.

Last but not least, would never miss moms apple pie, would have that every night.

Maybe they should draft moms.

[Captain Oates 911]

Your mom would be a first class soldier I am sure.

I know a lot about women because I have had eight wives (only 3 were mine)

I would rather fight a man than a woman anytime and on any terms

From age 19 to 26 I was a Police Officer and my first fight was with a woman in the back of a big van. She slammed me round the van on every panel for 10 miles while my colleagues looked back through the cab window and laughed.

I would have an all female army and back em against anyone anywhere.

Ask Tiger Woods

click >

[NickD 203]

Another bit of history, during the revolutionary, 1812, and civil wars in this country, each colony or state was obligated to provide troops for the federal cause. This still holds true today in the form of the national guard as they call it, but in reality, it's a state guard with separate branches emulating each branch of the federal service.

During the Viet Nam era with a federal draft, one way to beat that draft was to join your state national guard, and the odds of being called to active service was nil as the federal draft got all the guys they needed. But that certainly has changed today with the all voluntary service, the national or should I say state guard is the major source of sending troops to the likes of Iraq and Afghanistan. The primary purpose of the guard is to maintain a lower cost home defense and to do stuff like help up during conditions like tornadoes, hurricanes, and floods.

In times like this, the guard is called to help with rescue operations and to help police the area as thief becomes very common. When Wisconsin has hit by major floods in the lower half of the state a couple of years ago, we have very little of the guard left, most of them were in Iraq. time in the guard also counts as time served in the regular armed services, even in the era of obligatory service.

Just saying this because of that question, are you really bearing arms for your country or for your state?