Willing to bear arms?

[freetv 7]

Hold on a sec, there are really people here that would not bear arms if their country needed them? So your basically saying that if the country was going to hell and hundreds of thousands of people are running for their life and you were asked to man a gun so that your children, parents, and friends could get away you wouldn't do it? The only time America would ever ask you to defend it is in a situation like that (your an older lady...). I think its really insulting that anyone even ask this question, and no exceptions should be made, if your not willing, stay a LPR. Sorry if I hurt anyone but I feel very strongly about this.

And for the natural-born American citizens who don't believe in taking up arms, either..... what should be done with them?

All I can say is this: Most people that are born overseas and become Americans are more American and know more about the laws and rights of this country than native born Americans. I often have more respect for those ppl than ppl born here. Having said that..... The world isn't fair, I wasn't asked to take an oath after being born here, but I would take one if given a choice (just like those who file I-400 have a choice). Sometimes you can't decide who becomes an American (being born here), but we can foster and regulate who we allow to become an American later in life. It is our right to decide what is required and what is required for those seeking to become citizens. If we could, we would also do it for those born here. As for those who refuse, they should face extreme shame. Of course there are false wars and LPR can be drafted into the armed forces, however they could simply leave the country prior to being drafted and not face the same kinds of probs as a citizen would. My point was, this older lady would not be drafted and would not be asked to serve unless the country really was on the line. Younger people, might one day be forced to serve in a war they don't believe in, but the question isn't do you believe in the war. The real question is do you believe in what the country stands for? I have been against many wars in America's history, but our duty is to fight if needed. This doesn't mean we are to blindly follow someone else, but it does mean we can't allow personal opinions to strip a country of its ablity to fight. I believe the draft is wrong except in times of world war or a war at home, this means only those that believe in the war fight.... most of the time...

[toma1 10]

FYI: I just checked the naturalization guide and it says:

13. I am willing to perform either military or civilian service for the United States if required by law. (NOTE: If your religious teachings and beliefs prohibit you from performing military service, you must be willing to perform non-military service.)

[antda 13]

Hi Everyone,

Lol...no, I have no problems bearing arms, if required by law (and I did swear to such, when I took my oath ceremony, by the way). Lol...our neighbours have guns (I live in a rural area, and a lot of people around here hunt during hunting season), so I can see why as to why people would need such. As well, the country of America was founded during those times where having a gun or other weapons for survival reasons was acceptable, so I can see the historical context of that it is a consitutional right for people to "bear arms", am who am I to intrude on others' rights.

However, even though I agree to bear arms, it doesn't mean that I will necessarily use those weapons. I can bear the arms, but nowhere does it say that I have to use it. Do you know what I mean? Lol..sure the government or anyone else can give me a gun, but I probably wouldn't know what to do with it. Lol...I'll just hold the gun in my arm, and stand still, while others around me shoot. On a moral level, I don't believe in shooting people or animals with guns, so I would never ever do such anyways. A gun does me no good (nor to those unfortunate victims of gun crimes either)

Hey, here's a thought, "Does one have the right to bear arms to be used against the government who makes us bear arms?" hmm....

We can bear arms...but doesn't say who we can bear arms against.....

(just kidding...I wouldn't bear arms against the government...but as you can see, the right to bear arms rule is quite vague....)

As for civil service....No problem about that either....(and I did swear to such, when I took my oath ceremony too).....

If I can help the country through non-combat means, I'm all for that too....

Ant

Edited December 4, 2009 by Ant+D+A

[NickD 202]

"35. Do you understand the full Oath of Allegiance to the United States?

36. Are you willing to take the full Oath of Allegiance to the United States?

37. If the law requires it, are you willing to bear arms on behalf of the United States?

If your application is approved, you will be scheduled for a public oath ceremony at which time you will be required to take the following

oath of allegiance immediately prior to becoming a naturalized citizen. By signing, you acknowledge your willingness and ability to take

this oath:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,

state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;

that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;

that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;

that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and

that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Direct copies off the latest N-400, do you see any "ORS" written above? While question 37 asks if you are WILLING, the oath states that you WILL. Quite a difference between being willing and will in the legal sense of these words.

"By signing, you acknowledge your willingness and ability to take this oath:"

Wife read this very carefully so we expounded on the possibility of this happening with a 49 year old woman with kids. Said she would have no problem in grabbing a gun and firing back if we had terrorists in our front yard shooting at her and her kid. But that is not likely to happen, in another occasion while still debating this question and in downtown Chicago, she wanted to go on top of the Sears Tower. Replied, aren't you concerned about terrorists swiping an airliner and striking it. She said little chance of that, couldn't help but say, even less than a chance that you be called to bear arms for this country.

But she is a very honest and committed person, she did say the oath and if called for duty, she would show up, she did say the oath. My youngest son was living with us when she came here and extremely interested in guns and joining the military. Told him when I was in, we didn't have that fancy gym equipment, just loaded 65 pounds of rock in a back pack and went for a long run. She saw my son do that to get in shape, running 15 miles with a 65 pound backpack. But when he went to enlist was rejected due to a very minor thyroid gland problem, and he was in top shape. Must have had some influence on her at her age about her chances of being called, but she then had no problem in saying yes and reciting the oath.

Granted, no natural born USC has to make this oath. But when I was drafted as I stated before, either had to say that oath or go to jail, still wonder how legal that was. Didn't think about it at the time as a dumb 18 year old kid, in seeing 18 year kids today, seems incredible that the military even wants them, they are kids!

[internetkafe 0]

We may need draft if the president keeps sending troops around the world at the current speed and stamina.

It is better to spread it than putting the entire burden on a group of people who volunteered for several reasons.

In my opinion, being for draft is the definition of patriotism. If you are against draft you are unpatriotic.

Unlikely that we will see a draft any time soon. The military is exceeding it's recruitment numbers. My cousin was supposed to ship to boot camp on Dec. 9, but was told that his date was pushed back due to too many recruits.

Yeah, and it's very difficult to get into the Coast Guard or Air Force right now. They pick and choose.

Must be because of the perception that wars are going to be brought to an end by the new president. Lured by the so-called benefits of joining, especially in the midst of the most damaging economic collapse of the century, young people are being recruited. If Obama ends the wars, it will not be as dreadful job with death at the end of the tunnel. But the president chose to follow Bush's footsteps.I expect sudden and marked drop in recruitment figures, even in Coast Guard and Air Force...

[toma1 10]

We may need draft if the president keeps sending troops around the world at the current speed and stamina.

It is better to spread it than putting the entire burden on a group of people who volunteered for several reasons.

In my opinion, being for draft is the definition of patriotism. If you are against draft you are unpatriotic.

Unlikely that we will see a draft any time soon. The military is exceeding it's recruitment numbers. My cousin was supposed to ship to boot camp on Dec. 9, but was told that his date was pushed back due to too many recruits.

Yeah, and it's very difficult to get into the Coast Guard or Air Force right now. They pick and choose.

Must be because of the perception that wars are going to be brought to an end by the new president. Lured by the so-called benefits of joining, especially in the midst of the most damaging economic collapse of the century, young people are being recruited. If Obama ends the wars, it will not be as dreadful job with death at the end of the tunnel. But the president chose to follow Bush's footsteps.I expect sudden and marked drop in recruitment figures, even in Coast Guard and Air Force...

Actually, it's the economy. People that got laid off and can't find work are joining, and those two branches are perceived to be the most desirable.

[NickD 202]

Heard they were looking for experienced personal that had already served, but only guys under 40 years of age. Too bad that I am 41 years old, LOL. Since I have completed college, should be able to go back as a 90 day wonder or an officer. Feel I would be darn good. But too old, still can hit a deer at a 1,000 meters, but again, too old. They just want kids that don't know any better.

[Captain Oates 911]

Bob Dylan's lyrics echo down the decades:

Try hard, get barred

Get back, ride rail

Get jailed, jump bail

Join the army if you fail

Look out kid

You're gonna get hit

By losers, cheaters

Six-time users

Hangin' 'round the theaters

Girl by the whirlpool

Lookin' for a new fool

Don't follow leaders

Watch the parkin' meters

Edited December 4, 2009 by saywhat

[toma1 10]

Heard they were looking for experienced personal that had already served, but only guys under 40 years of age. Too bad that I am 41 years old, LOL. Since I have completed college, should be able to go back as a 90 day wonder or an officer. Feel I would be darn good. But too old, still can hit a deer at a 1,000 meters, but again, too old. They just want kids that don't know any better.

My cousin went back after leaving as a petty officer and they sent him to the Coast Guard Academy. Ended up valedictorian...

[internetkafe 0]

Bob Dylan's lyrics echo down the decades:

Try hard, get barred

Get back, ride rail

Get jailed, jump bail

Join the army if you fail

Look out kid

You're gonna get hit

By losers, cheaters

Six-time users

Hangin' 'round the theaters

Girl by the whirlpool

Lookin' for a new fool

Don't follow leaders

Watch the parkin' meters

+1

[NickD 202]

My brother got drafted into the army, conned them into sending him to medical school, still don't know how he managed that, served 30 years and retired recently as a Lt. Colonel at the ripe old age of 48. Did get married had three kids and was stationed all over the world, mostly in the nicer spots like Germany, Japan, and Spain. So not really a bad way to bear arms for your country. He is still all military working in VA hospital in Colorado. In constant contact with my three nieces now, that they are finally back in the states.

Certainly no shortage of both girls or boys applying for flight schools, regardless of the branch, they all have airplanes now.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

my my - now I am being called an 'older lady' ?

Inetresting that the general mood in this thread has been that naturally born Americans are allowed to have their opinions about guns and war and participating etc.....but some on this board are quite vehement that because I came here voluntarily...I have to be perfect and agree with everything this country stands for. Hmm,....bit of a double standard, no?

Freedom of speech will allow me to voice my opinions regarding any issue and I don't have to agree always, do I? That's not freedom of speech then.

Folks as I first mentioned....I could stay an LPR, but then I would be denied some basic citizenship rights and if I live here my entire life with my USC husband, and pay taxes, I deserve the right to vote and have an opinion on how my new country goes...and perhaps I'll be in agreement with less war, more love and all that. who knows...it will depend on the situation. As a Canadian - I simply came here due to love, not because I was a refugee or from a war-torn country so my view upon arriving is not ' Thank gawd, I have been saved now that I am in America'......I am simply here and not there (Canada) nothing much else has changed for me, not standard of living or quality of life. I do love being with my hubster though.

[internetkafe 0]

My brother got drafted into the army, conned them into sending him to medical school, still don't know how he managed that, served 30 years and retired recently as a Lt. Colonel at the ripe old age of 48. Did get married had three kids and was stationed all over the world, mostly in the nicer spots like Germany, Japan, and Spain. So not really a bad way to bear arms for your country. He is still all military working in VA hospital in Colorado. In constant contact with my three nieces now, that they are finally back in the states.

Certainly no shortage of both girls or boys applying for flight schools, regardless of the branch, they all have airplanes now.

Where I come from, military service is mandatory. Doing your part as a citizen is only commendable.

As long as it involves purely defending your country/people. Unfortunately in today's world the meaning of defense and offense has intermingled. Hence the hesitation on the part of people when it comes to draft...

[Captain Oates 911]

My cousin went back after leaving as a petty officer and they sent him to the Coast Guard Academy. Ended up valedictorian...

I was victor ludorem

and had the elementary 25 yard swimming cerificate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Ludorum

Edited December 4, 2009 by saywhat

[NickD 202]

my my - now I am being called an 'older lady' ?

Inetresting that the general mood in this thread has been that naturally born Americans are allowed to have their opinions about guns and war and participating etc.....but some on this board are quite vehement that because I came here voluntarily...I have to be perfect and agree with everything this country stands for. Hmm,....bit of a double standard, no?

Freedom of speech will allow me to voice my opinions regarding any issue and I don't have to agree always, do I? That's not freedom of speech then.

Folks as I first mentioned....I could stay an LPR, but then I would be denied some basic citizenship rights and if I live here my entire life with my USC husband, and pay taxes, I deserve the right to vote and have an opinion on how my new country goes...and perhaps I'll be in agreement with less war, more love and all that. who knows...it will depend on the situation. As a Canadian - I simply came here due to love, not because I was a refugee or from a war-torn country so my view upon arriving is not ' Thank gawd, I have been saved now that I am in America'......I am simply here and not there (Canada) nothing much else has changed for me, not standard of living or quality of life. I do love being with my hubster though.

Agree that the right to bear arms and that I will bear arms for my (new) country if required by law are entirely two different subjects. Tried to reply in the perspective of my wife that did come here like you did with the same question that you had. Basically, how did you reply to bearing arms for this country. Her thoughts on this subject were nearly identical to yours and it did become quite an issue around here.

Without any insinuations about your age or sex and the same exactly applies to my wife that I love deeply, you are somewhat the last or next to the last to be called, IF such a law was ever passed. And as such, can view this question, if you indeed are called, we would really really be in bad shape.

Yet another factor exists with our old draft laws that were written during the technology of the time. It could take a year or longer to train a soldier to fight and even a lot longer for some of the high complex jobs the military has to offer. Quite a different story today where a major nuclear war would end all wars in hours, really no need to be concerned about bearing arms if that happens, we would all be dead.

This country does have a history of drafts or more appropriately called consription to service. This only occurred while a declared war was in process, like the War of 1812, the Civic War, and WWI, but all ended with the end of the war. The longest draft we had was signed into law September 16, 1940, by president Roosevelt, but ended in 1973. What really made the draft extremely unpopular was Viet Nam.

I feel it's very safe to say and as I said to my wife, we would need a conventional type of war where the enemy is actually by our doorstep before she would be called to bear arms. And with strangers shooting at her kids, she would have no problem in shooting back. So it was on that basis, she said yes. And I even took her to a firing range firing revolvers, semi-automatic pistols, my Browning .274 that she liked, and a Russian and a 12 gauge shotgun she didn't like. Those two left black and blue bruises on her shouder. But she did say, never again for the fire range, well at least for that Russian and 12 gauge shotgun. But she has the idea of what is involved for saying yes, before she said yes. I believe you could also say yes if it ever comes to this. And as a USC, you can also voice your objection to such requests.