Willing to bear arms?

[Krikit 1,164]

What happened to "defend and protect the Constitution...against all enemies - foregn and domestic"!?!?!?

I googled the Constitution. It looks huge. Saw where the President has to make an oath about protecting and defending the Constitution. I didn't assume it meant he had to grab a gun, though.

BTW, I found it interesting to note that it kept referring to the President as "he". I do understand the era it was written in.... it just stood out to me, that's all.

Also, it seems to me that you are being hypocritical on the issue. You admit that you have a CCP, probably pack heat in public and own what anti-gunners call an assault weapon. Seems like a pretty extreme selection of what anti-gunners wet their beds over. I know some hunters and skeet shooters who own a bolt action rifle or an over-and-under shotgun and say that they are against handguns or concealed carry or assault weapons. That I can understand. But seems to me that you are a different case. Seems that you trust yourself with having all this serious weaponry, but don't trust others. While I do understand where you coming from, it seems like a little bit of elitism to me...

Saywhat has an interesting background. You'll find his old posts informative.

[NickD 203]

That's a twisted statement. I always thought that honoring any oath is a proper thing to do if you took this oath volounterely and in good faith. The real problem is that the country decayed to the point when no one takes any oaths seriously and even elected officials all the way to the oval office do not honor the oath of office. What happened to "defend and protect the Constitution...against all enemies - foregn and domestic"!?!?!?

I am sorry you don't agree. By your statement the country was decaying before the ink was dry on the Declaration of Independance. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." The enslavement of African-Americans, the decimation of entire Native American populations etc. took place under a government that declared itself using these words.

Horrible horrible things have been done in the name of issuing unconditional allegiance. Classical organizational theory has sent millions of people efficiently to slaughter and all they were doing was upholding "oaths" to their government and superiors. NO THANK YOU!

By the way, don't assume you know my political stance on anything. Frankly, I could care less about gun control. Have guns, don't have guns. It's all gravy. Just don't force me to use them against the person you pre-ordained the enemy.

Actually, I'm not a big fan of oaths like that myself and I certainly don't want to blindly follow government. I was simply saying that "honoring the oath you took in good faith" is a right and honest thing to do. The fact that oaths sometimes make you say retarded things is a whole different story.

Actually there is a huge difference between being "willing" and "able". In terms of the question, are you "willing"?

[Captain Oates 911]

Here I agree with every word.

Glad you liked the last bit.

I would just answer 2 things which are a bit off topic so I won't bang on about it:

1 The decision to execute someone should not be influenced by the money consideration of keeping them in jail. My wife agrees with you so perhaps it's the American approach of reducing everything to 'tax dollars'. If I got even 5 years in an American jail, I would prefer execution. I have been in British prisons many times (not as an inmate) and they, by contrast, are doable.

2 I gladly admit to having elitist tendencies. The whole world is full of people with 'low self esteem' and they line up to see their psychiatrists and suffer years of domestic beatings. They all want to raise their self esteem. I have had a good solid self esteem since I can first remember, but as soon as someone detects it, they want to slap me down to make me like the low self esteemed. The world would be better if people valued themselves more and considered themselves better than to do drugs and crime and hang out with low life situations and take orders from other people without first running it through their own set of values which they trust. (Heck, almost back on topic)

If any gun owner thinks they are less responsible than the others, they should sell their guns immediately. I take pride in my training and self discipline and I compare myself favourably to the crazies you refer to on the gun sites and I don't see anything wrong with that. Yes, I should be among the first to be granted a license under a tougher regulatory regime.

Despite all that self worth thing, I don't act like a raging egotist in real life and I quickly recognize when people have better ideas or better abilities than me or are just all round better people than me. I am quite self depracating much of the time. Love yourself, but only for those things you have worked on and created yourself through adversity is my motto.

ok sorry for the diversion readers, back to to the topic

[Boiler 45,525]

That's not true. Read the thread again - she was in fact the first one who mentioned gun control and he just replied. As for what he did or didn't post before - I don't know about it so I cannot judge either way.

Thank you,

I think Elishav is confused, the other quote was also by somebody else.

I am not expecting an apology.

[freetv 7]

Hold on a sec, there are really people here that would not bear arms if their country needed them? So your basically saying that if the country was going to hell and hundreds of thousands of people are running for their life and you were asked to man a gun so that your children, parents, and friends could get away you wouldn't do it? The only time America would ever ask you to defend it is in a situation like that (your an older lady...). I think its really insulting that anyone even ask this question, and no exceptions should be made, if your not willing, stay a LPR. Sorry if I hurt anyone but I feel very strongly about this.

Edited December 3, 2009 by freetv

[Krikit 1,164]

Hold on a sec, there are really people here that would not bear arms if their country needed them? So your basically saying that if the country was going to hell and hundreds of thousands of people are running for their life and you were asked to man a gun so that your children, parents, and friends could get away you wouldn't do it? The only time America would ever ask you to defend it is in a situation like that (your an older lady...). I think its really insulting that anyone even ask this question, and no exceptions should be made, if your not willing, stay a LPR. Sorry if I hurt anyone but I feel very strongly about this.

And for the natural-born American citizens who don't believe in taking up arms, either..... what should be done with them?

[Captain Oates 911]

Hold on a sec, there are really people here that would not bear arms if their country needed them? So your basically saying that if the country was going to hell and hundreds of thousands of people are running for their life and you were asked to man a gun so that your children, parents, and friends could get away you wouldn't do it? The only time America would ever ask you to defend it is in a situation like that (your an older lady...). I think its really insulting that anyone even ask this question, and no exceptions should be made, if your not willing, stay a LPR. Sorry if I hurt anyone but I feel very strongly about this.

I think people who have doubts about this , are thinking about Vietnam type situations - false wars - and remember that the US introduced the draft for that war; so to say the govt would only call on people if the enemy hordes were swarming ashore is not correct. They will use people compulsorily whenever they want to

Look at what happened to Mohammed Ali for refusing to go and take part in a false war.

Vietnam was a false war coz we lost it and nothing nasty happened. Many extreme patriots simply refuse to admit that the govt sometimes sends Americans to be killed and crippled in what are totally unnecessary conflicts - and often they are draftees who will have criminal sanctions applied if they don't comply. Immigrants should be aware of this at least.

Also staying a LPR does not absolve anyone. LPR's are treated the same as Citizens and have to sign up for this when they apply for a green card (selective service)

Edited December 3, 2009 by saywhat

[internetkafe 0]

I am for draft. Let everyone feel the pain. Also there should be a war tax. War is not free. It is government spending, big government. I wonder how would the fiscally conservative people react to realities... Will they answer their country's call and join the military and pay the war tax as a true patriot should or?

[Captain Oates 911]

I am for draft. Let everyone feel the pain. Also there should be a war tax. War is not free. It is government spending, big government. I wonder how would the fiscally conservative people react to realities... Will they answer their country's call and join the military and pay the war tax as a true patriot should or?

If we attack another country like panama or grenada again, I will volunteer to crew a searchlight unit from my bunker in the night club area of Seattle instead of paying the tax.

[Krikit 1,164]

Also staying a LPR does not absolve anyone. LPR's are treated the same as Citizens and have to sign up for this when they apply for a green card (selective service)

My Canadian friend (a LPR) was enrolled at an American university during that time and was obligated to serve in Vietnam. It changed him forever.

It's interesting how some believe that upholding the US Constitution automatically translates into bearing arms and killing people. There is a role for everyone during times of strife. Everyone has a talent for something and those talents would be best put to use elsewhere. Chaplains, for instance, cannot carry firearms. But they do serve when called up. I would also prefer that my doctor be looking after his patients rather than running around with a gun.

[Captain Oates 911]

Also staying a LPR does not absolve anyone. LPR's are treated the same as Citizens and have to sign up for this when they apply for a green card (selective service)

My Canadian friend (a LPR) was enrolled at an American university during that time and was obligated to serve in Vietnam. It changed him forever.

It's interesting how some believe that upholding the US Constitution automatically translates into bearing arms and killing people. There is a role for everyone during times of strife. Everyone has a talent for something and those talents would be best put to use elsewhere. Chaplains, for instance, cannot carry firearms. But they do serve when called up. I would also prefer that my doctor be looking after his patients rather than running around with a gun.

Actually I have just realized that the whole subject and discussion of this post is irrelevant as the only people who can apply for Naturalisation are LPR's and they are already in selective service if they fit the profile..

The oath at the time of Naturalisation is superfluous except that it means that after the ceremony you are still on the hook as a citizen if you leave the country, whereas an LPR can skip off as soon as Lockheed's shares go up and ####### Cheney gets his grin back.

[NickD 203]

It was easy to beat the draft back then, just make sure your daddies name was George H. W. Bush, if not that, get a dad rich enough to send you to Harvard. But make sure you joined the Skulls so you would have an permanent in. May even become president if not a senator or a supreme court judge. If of lesser means, knock up that gal in high school, didn't have to be concerned about wedding plans, her dad with his shotgun would handle that. With real luck, could marry a gal that was a daughter of a politician.

I wasn't so fortunate, and didn't find any gals in high school I neither wanted to stick it to or be stuck with, and God only knew where my old man was, so got drafted. But was good that I did pay some attention in class, the guys with the lowest aptitude scores got stuck in those suicidal patrols. But still was trained how to kill a guy with my bare hands, so don't need a gun. But nice to have one.

So I got a photo ID VA card, seems to work when coming back to this country. But not sure what else it is good for. Wife was really hassled by those idiots when she came here alone, they don't seem to bother her anymore when she comes back with me.

Of course there was a strong reason for VN, to stop the spread of communism. But not sure today why, if that system of government was so good, it should have survived and maybe we should have adopted it. But wasn't communistic at all, more like a dictatorship, so thousands had to die or worse yet, get severely wounded for the rest of their lives. Just because of these a$$holes. Today, we don't fight communism, but fight to spread democracy, really haven't figured that out either. Kind of like the Spanish Inquisition, either accept Jesus as your savior or we will boil you alive in oil.

China a communist country so why aren't we invading them? But instead, we are sending them all of our jobs. Really difficult to figure out what's going on.

But, hey, this is my country and don't ask me to leave it, but can think of a few guys in Washington DC that we should all force to leave. Instead they are giving us a hard time with us bringing our loved ones here.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

This is something AbuS had to think long and hard about, and almost didn't become a citizen because of.

In the end, he took the oath, and interpreted it as such - if the country was ever invaded and he needed to defend his home and family, he would do so in an instant. It would be extremely unlikely for him to ever be drafted and sent off into a war he disagreed with (like Vietnam or the current wars). But, if it ever came to that and they threatened to strip him of his citizenship if he didn't serve, well then he'd just let them take it and go back to Egypt. He's more than happy to do any number of things for this country. Actually now that I think of it, he and I (the natural born citizen) would probably be willing to do the same things and not do the same things. Funny (not ha ha funny, more sad) how he's now bound to do so, where as I'm not.

[Redneck-NOVA 1]

except that it means that after the ceremony you are still on the hook as a citizen if you leave the country, whereas an LPR can skip off

Not that a citizen can't skip off and live abroad during this time... You may be on the hook, but it's not like they will extradite you from a third country just to draft you.

Either way, I don't see draft happening unless it is a serious invasion on US soil (which I don't see happening either anytime soon). Yes, during Vietnam there was a draft for a useless war, but that's exactly one of the reasons why it wouldn't happen again. Anti war moods are strong enough now even with volantary draft, if any administration was ever to press for a mandatory one for a war on foreign soil...forget about it.

[Captain Oates 911]

jeez - in an hour I am off to the range to see my pal Butch who had his foot shredded by a mine in Vietnam - 5 years in hospital trying to save it and make it work.

He was 19 when he was - I was an inner city cop in the UK and thinking I had it tough - but I didnt have all that stuff. I was having my early 20's as one big party compared to him. I have the greatest sympathy for all who had to go and suffer everything that goes with it. Many of them must try and make sense of it by supporting the whole thing otherwise it would be too hard to bear, but many others must be embittered by having their 20's stolen for all that stuff.

I think the people in the US who were against the war should nevertheless have given their total support and sympathy and practical help and reward to those who had to go and they were horribly wrong to lay it on the troops

Edited December 3, 2009 by saywhat