After denial, starting second attempt soon... please assist.

[Tom Davis 0]

So a few months ago my fiance from Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh) was denied her Visa for some pretty legitimate reasons. Including our ceremony shortly after we met and a substantial language barrier towards the beginning of our relationship. But now that we are starting round 2 I was curious if anybody has any tips or information that could turn the outcome around. Such as...

-What new information should I present that isn't on the required list because the consulate kept all of our documents from our file?

-Should we re-apply for a K-1 or get married in Vietnam and try for a K-3 visa?

Any and all help is much appreciated.

Thank You in advance,

Tom Davis

Edited November 28, 2009 by Tom Davis

[ksoh08 0]

So a few months ago my fiance from Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh) was denied her Visa for some pretty legitimate reasons. Including our ceremony shortly after we met and a substantial language barrier towards the beginning of our relationship. But now that we are starting round 2 I was curious if anybody has any tips or information that could turn the outcome around. Such as...

-What new information should I present that isn't on the required list because the consulate kept all of our documents from our file?

-Should we re-apply for a K-1 or get married in Vietnam and try for a K-3 visa?

Any and all help is much appreciated.

Thank You in advance,

Tom Davis

Have you recieved anything back from USCIS yet? I too am going through the same thing right now. Linda24 may be able to help you, shes been helpful. I'm trying to ask for another review/interview right now. but that was my back up plan too, if they were to deny my k-1. Go to vietnam for awhile again. and getting married there. still a bit unsure. Goodluck to you man. btw, why were you two denied?

Edited November 28, 2009 by ksoh08

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

So a few months ago my fiance from Vietnam (Ho Chi Minh) was denied her Visa for some pretty legitimate reasons. Including our ceremony shortly after we met and a substantial language barrier towards the beginning of our relationship. But now that we are starting round 2 I was curious if anybody has any tips or information that could turn the outcome around. Such as...

-What new information should I present that isn't on the required list because the consulate kept all of our documents from our file?

-Should we re-apply for a K-1 or get married in Vietnam and try for a K-3 visa?

Any and all help is much appreciated.

Thank You in advance,

Tom Davis

Hi Tom.

Always make photocopies of everything you submit to the government in this process. You should have at least one complete copy of every package submitted for your records. Don't submit original documents unless they specifically require original documents. If you have to submit an original document then you should also submit a photocopy. The consulate will usually keep the photocopy and return the original to you (except for forms you fill out, which they will keep anyway).

Unless you address the reasons you were denied, then you'll be denied again. Having an engagement ceremony too soon after meeting is a big red flag at the consulate in HCM. You can get around this by demonstrating that a lot of time went into the relationship after the ceremony. Have you gone back to visit your fiancee on a somewhat regular basis? Do you communicate regularly? Is she learning English, or are you learning "Tiếng Việt"? Have you spent time with her family? (Family involvement and approval is important in Vietnam.) Be prepared to submit evidence of these things with the petition, and don't rely on submitting the evidence at the interview - they often don't ask to see any evidence at the interview.

What happened to your denied K1? Was it denied under 212(a)(6)(C )(i)? This is important. A denial under 212(a)(6)(C )(i) is an accusation of fraud against your fiancee. If it's not addressed, it could result in a finding of fact, which could mean a lifetime ban from the US. If you get a notice from USCIS that they intend to revoke the approval of the original K1 petition then you MUST respond to this notice. This article covers the topic pretty well:

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0323-ellis.shtm

Don't bother with a K3. If you decide to get married, then file for a CR1. It costs less, and she'll get her green card shortly after arrival. Getting married in Vietnam can be a difficult process for a foreigner. The Vietnamese government will require that your fiancee speak your language, and that she can prove it. This is often done in an interview with both of you and a couple of translators. The interviewer will ask her a question in Vietnamese, she'll have to translate the question to you, and then translate your response back to Vietnamese. The translators will judge her performance. If she's not reasonably fluent in English then you might not want to subject her to this.

Spend some time in the Asia: East and Pacific regional forum. There's a lot to be learned from the experience of others.

[toma1 10]

Always make photocopies of everything you submit to the government in this process. You should have at least one complete copy of every package submitted for your records. Don't submit original documents unless they specifically require original documents. If you have to submit an original document then you should also submit a photocopy. The consulate will usually keep the photocopy and return the original to you (except for forms you fill out, which they will keep anyway).

I keeped scanned PDF files. I'm horrible with paper and those PDFs are easy to move around the world on a moment's notice. They have come in handy when I was traveling away from home (and my files) more than once.

What happened to your denied K1? Was it denied under 212(a)(6)(C )(i)? This is important. A denial under 212(a)(6)(C )(i) is an accusation of fraud against your fiancee. If it's not addressed, it could result in a finding of fact, which could mean a lifetime ban from the US. If you get a notice from USCIS that they intend to revoke the approval of the original K1 petition then you MUST respond to this notice. This article covers the topic pretty well:

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking. Many people are unaware of the gravity of denial. This petition could be dead before it begins. Based on the information given in the OP, what other reason for denying the petition could there have been?

Edited November 28, 2009 by toma1

[Tom Davis 0]

The case already went back to USCIS and was denied again but I don't need to appeal, just start over. It was turned down because the embassy claimed the marriage would be perceived as a sham. Unfortunately I dont have a copy of the complete packet I sent, only the forms.

I have been studying Vietnamese frequently and I bought her a laptop with 2 years of Rosetta Stone and she studies constantly. The only reason we have no reapplied yet was because of the marriage requirements in Vietnam, we know the interview is very strict on language fluency so we have been waiting but we both feel she is not ready and will not be ready in March when I return to Vietnam.

This next trip will be my seventh to Vietnam in the 2 years we've been engaged. I have all the supporting documents to go with it. Bank statements, credit card statements, reciepts (which they dont like), boarding pass, itineraries, etc.

It seems my fiance, Hanh, has the paper that explains why we denied with the list of specifics. I'll have to get the back soon.

Thank you for everything so far,

Tom Davis.

[toma1 10]

It was turned down because the embassy claimed the marriage would be perceived as a sham.

Which sounds like a 212(a)(6)(C )(i) denial to me. If it is and you didn't address that issue, your fiancee may already be permanently banned. If so, it wouldn't matter if you were married with 12 kids, you would always be denied after that. You might need a lawyer.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

The case already went back to USCIS and was denied again but I don't need to appeal, just start over. It was turned down because the embassy claimed the marriage would be perceived as a sham. Unfortunately I dont have a copy of the complete packet I sent, only the forms.

Technically, it's the consulate. The US Embassy is in Hanoi, and they don't handle visa applications.

When the consulate denied your fiancee's visa, they were accusing her of fraud. Once the petition comes back to USCIS, they can take several courses of action. Sometimes they just allow the approval of the petition to expire, which leaves you back at square one to try again. Sometimes they reaffirm the petition, and send it back to the consulate for another interview. Sometimes they agree with the consulate, and revoke the approval of the petition. In this case, you would have a narrow time frame in which to file an appeal of their decision. The Vermont service center usually sends a Notice Of Intent to Deny/Revoke to the petitioner, but the California service center often only sends the notice if you specifically ask for it. Either way, if you do not appeal the decision, then the accusation by the consulate becomes a presumption of fact. This triggers a lifetime ban from the US against your fiancee. If this is caught when you file your next petition, then the petition is going to be denied. Otherwise, your fiancee will find out about it when she arrives at her next interview.

Please read the article I linked to, review any notices you've received from USCIS about this, and consider talking to a qualified immigration lawyer.

How many times had you been to Vietnam when you filed the petition, and how many times when she went to the interview? Also, were you in Vietnam when she went to the interview?

[toma1 10]

The case already went back to USCIS and was denied again but I don't need to appeal, just start over. It was turned down because the embassy claimed the marriage would be perceived as a sham. Unfortunately I dont have a copy of the complete packet I sent, only the forms.

Technically, it's the consulate. The US Embassy is in Hanoi, and they don't handle visa applications.

When the consulate denied your fiancee's visa, they were accusing her of fraud. Once the petition comes back to USCIS, they can take several courses of action. Sometimes they just allow the approval of the petition to expire, which leaves you back at square one to try again. Sometimes they reaffirm the petition, and send it back to the consulate for another interview. Sometimes they agree with the consulate, and revoke the approval of the petition. In this case, you would have a narrow time frame in which to file an appeal of their decision. The Vermont service center usually sends a Notice Of Intent to Deny/Revoke to the petitioner, but the California service center often only sends the notice if you specifically ask for it. Either way, if you do not appeal the decision, then the accusation by the consulate becomes a presumption of fact. This triggers a lifetime ban from the US against your fiancee. If this is caught when you file your next petition, then the petition is going to be denied. Otherwise, your fiancee will find out about it when she arrives at her next interview.

It sounds to me like USCIS denied a second petition outright, which is not a good sign.

[Anh map 2,098]

If you have 7 trips where you can document time spent together with family and friends that ought to be persuasive to a CO.

The inability to demonstrate that you can communciate is a red flag, especially with that many trips to visit each other. Along with any sort of Rosetta Stone type of course it really helps to use the language in a class and/or casual setting. That will help your fiancee be more relaxed at the consulate interview.

For the CR1 petition you will have to prepare a new packet of information covering the entire length of your relationship. The NVC and Consulate will not go dig out the old file and add it to what you may submit next. So begin recreating any evidence that you don't have from the prior K1 petition. Think about what you presented in the first go 'round and address the weaknesses.

What do you mean about "they don't like receipts?"

If you can post the actual denial slip (black out the case number and any other ID info) that may help others here give some specific feedback about preparing the next petition.

[Tom Davis 0]

Sorry it has taken to long for my to make any updates to the post, I've been working all day.

So after reading the article Jim posted I have discovered that the CA service center most likely never sent me my NOID letter so my first matter of business will be calling them on Monday morning to verify that.

To add more clarification to whats going on...

In the 20 months we have been engaged I have been to vietnam 6, times from anywhere between 2-4 weeks. With my 7th visit upcoming in March for our anniversary.

Hanh has been studying English from before we met but that was from terrible sources (bad books, etc.) She is learning it at much faster now because 3 months ago I purchased a laptop +2 years of Rosetta Stone software for her. I too have also begun studying Vietnamese with RS so I think after this next time will go much smoother.

As I said previously I dont have the blue denial slip with me anymore, Hanh has it, regarding the denial specifics but I do remember a vast majority of the descepancies, which most of them have been overcome.

-Becoming engaged with a vietnamese citizen after meeting so shortly, when Vietnamese culture is normally a longer process involving family approval.

When we started our first case I never had any written formal approval from her parents, which I have read is a very good idea so this will be taken care of in the near future.

I do believe the major dent in our case was the language barrier and the short duration of our relationship.

During Interview Hanh was unclear on a few questions including:

-Job Duties

-Manager's Name

-Location

-My personal address (she said she had a hard time with pronunciation)

Anh,

thank you for mentioning that my old file will not be dug up because I was under the assumption that they would use my past pictures, documents, birth certificates, phone bills, etc, in conjunction with the new case. Now I know to rebuild all of my packets from scratch with our 2 year relationship inside of it instead of just documents from the end of our first petition until now.

I will try to uncover some more details about what has happened, so far everybody has been incredibly helpful and I have discovered a wealth of information. Unfortunately I was very naive the first time I went through this process.

Thanks Again,

Tom Davis

[toma1 10]

I will try to uncover some more details about what has happened,

This should be your number 1 goal at the moment. Forget about the rest. If she was denied for visa fraud at the consulate, the USCIS accepted the decision, and you did not appeal within the allotted time, all of the evidence in the world is not going to help you the second (or any other) time around.

[Tom Davis 0]

So I found a copy of my "Notice of Decision" received on 8/17/2009, and it reads...

"Since the period of validity has now expired the petition will not be revalidated. Therefore, in accordance with 8 C.F.R. 214.2 (k)(5), all USCIS action on this petition is concluded as of the date of this notice. However, the petitioner may choose to file a new Form I-129F, Petition for an Alien Fiance, for the beneficiary with fee."

Afterwards I called USCIS and asked what further action I needed to take. The Rep told me, they received the petition back from the consulate in July and they normally respond within 120 Days but didn't offer any other advise.

I was afraid that I would have to appeal my case and request a NOID letter. But does this Notice of Decision mean that I can gather up all my documents and just resend the I-129F and restart the process from the beginning?

Thanks again in advance,

Tom Davis

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

So I found a copy of my "Notice of Decision" received on 8/17/2009, and it reads...

"Since the period of validity has now expired the petition will not be revalidated. Therefore, in accordance with 8 C.F.R. 214.2 (k)(5), all USCIS action on this petition is concluded as of the date of this notice. However, the petitioner may choose to file a new Form I-129F, Petition for an Alien Fiance, for the beneficiary with fee."

Afterwards I called USCIS and asked what further action I needed to take. The Rep told me, they received the petition back from the consulate in July and they normally respond within 120 Days but didn't offer any other advise.

I was afraid that I would have to appeal my case and request a NOID letter. But does this Notice of Decision mean that I can gather up all my documents and just resend the I-129F and restart the process from the beginning?

Thanks again in advance,

Tom Davis

The notice means that USCIS let your petition die a natural death - i.e., they just let it expire. It was neither denied nor revoked. You're free to file again!