Moderator Inconsistency and Duplicity

[SunDrop 59]

I'm someone that has been rubbed up the wrong way by one of the more forthright members of VJ. It stopped me from posting in the thread, because I felt that it would just descend into a futile ####### fer tat. It irritates me when OPs threads get distracted completely from their question, wading through semantics. So if you're looking for evidence that some members are intimidating those who are actively seeking to be a part of the community, then here ya go.

What it boils down to is tact. There is no need to nit pick at semantics, with bullyish statements. What I wrote in that instance was both correct and incorrect. I advised someone that to transit through a country, they shouldn't need a visitor's visa but would need a transit doc/visa. It only needed a single line reply saying 'actually, these 2 visa types are one and the same in Canada' instead of the patronising 'yet another incorrect reply. it truly baffles me why people persist in posting potentially devastating information. All you need to do is google...' These aren't verbatim quotes, but the you get the gist.

I agree that blatant misinformation needs managing, especially in the upper forums. I usually will consider out loud and then research. Sometimes (as was the case above) my research gets interrupted by life beyond the screen for a few minutes. If no one has subsequently confirmed, refuted or supported my post, I'll add to it upon my return.

I am anxious about the fact that many posters are not mother tongue speakers of english. They get confused by the bickering and so quite understandably struggle to pull out the important information. People use online translators to post or interpret replies. We have to assume that if they are overwhelmed by the bickering, they don't come back. We also have an obligation due to the global nature of the forum, to be respectful and cautious about cultural sensitivities. To a one, use of certain words is offensive or abrupt, where it is not to another. Certain words carry certain meanings in one culture that they don't in others, particularly when translating or using english as a foreign language.

I have taken part in a thread with an OP who was not a very bright spark, but extremely assertive. She got distracted by some very reasonable advice because it wasn't want she wanted to hear and didn't understand why the poster was saying what he was. As a result she missed the answer he gave to her question. When she pointed out that he hadn't bothered to reply to her actual question, he quoted his post and then made a very snide comment. That, is completely uncalled for and actually totally undermined the more important supplementary advice he had given her. I haven't checked back on that thread yet to see if she responded any differently to my attempt to kindly explain why he advised what he did, but she certainly was totally put off by his reply. It wasn't what he said, but how. I don't mean sugar coating, but there's no need for snark.

It's one thing to be knowledgeable, it's another skill entirely to be tactful. People have different styles of posting, different areas of expertise and different intellectual abilities. If VJ is to continue to be the best online resource for US visa petitioners and beneficiaries, which I believe it is, due to the quality and scope of experience of the layman membership here, then an emphasis on the community aspects of the forum is necessary to sustain it. I don't know that 'if you don't like it, leave' is the best approach here, because many of us can't afford - literally - to leave the good advice behind. Does that mean we should just tolerate the bickering? Of course not. Nor should that dependence dictate a platform for personalities to patronise, condescend or chastise other members.

I appreciate from experience how very thankless moderating a forum can be. It's damned do, damned don't most of the time. And the playground analogy was a good one because it often feels like that's where you are! That isn't a statement about this thread in any way; I believe open discussion is often the most effective way forward. I agree that allocating mods to their best area of expertise is a good way of controlling personality clashes but also weeds out the varying standards and principles of moderating. You have to have a secondary mod on each area, in case of absence, which also acts as a good way of training up new mods.

There is no doubt that there are several prominent members on VJ. Most are perceived in this way for the quality of knowledge and this is what solicits praise. The manner of delivery cannot be commented on, so the scope of feedback isn't indicative of the whole picture. I personally believe that if you had a multi-question feedback system (rather like a product review!) you would get a clearer picture. 'Did the member reply in an accurate and knowledgeable manner?' five out of five stars 'Did you feel the member posted in a helpful and kind manner?' one out of five stars... that's not praise.

[meauxna 15]

Great topic RJ. I could say much more about pushbrk's tactics, insulting of members personal experiences; but the whiner complained about me facing him up instead of taking it down like others do, and you put us on mutual ignore. Like AJ said, he is hurting your website - advertising himself as an immigration expert, a couple times offering services, asking for a retainer, etc. that is beyond wrong. He can open his own damn website for that.

Oh

Mah

Godz

Seriously? That's pretty much illegal in every state in the US and I don't care where you've got your VJ server parked now, that is just asking for trouble St.. Ewok. Full circle man.

Not only illegal, just wrong on SO many levels. That is something that I think there should be ZERO tolerance on.

Who knows? Ban the bossy folk and you might give room for a lot of 'new' knowledgeable people to speak up and spread the knowledge base out some.

Edited November 28, 2009 by meauxna

[Wyld Blu 35]

Here is my two cents on this subject. I have personally had a run in or two with some of the more senior members who ARE very knowledgeable on various subjects. They will answer your questions with correct information, but in a way that other people will be so turned off by, that the information is shut out.

The problem in my honest opinion is this...many people communicate in a way THEY understand but not in a way that the people they are trying to communicate with can understand. In other words, you may be an expert on a subject and wish to share the information, but the way you communicate the information may come be heard as harsh or rude. This has a tendency to make your information fall on deaf ears.

As a communicator, it is YOUR responsibility to see that your message gets across, if you truly are interested in people understanding what you are saying. The best way to do this is to be straightforward, without accusations, with kindness, and with an understanding that you may be talking to someone who is more sensitive than others. For me, my most memorable run in had to do with a very knowledgeable senior member giving me an answer to a question, and prefacing it with what I did wrong in the first place. This information was not asked for, or even required for the answer. It was taken as rude and harsh and unnecessary. Unfortunately, the conversations denigrated from there.

-Blu-

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Great topic RJ. I could say much more about pushbrk's tactics, insulting of members personal experiences; but the whiner complained about me facing him up instead of taking it down like others do, and you put us on mutual ignore. Like AJ said, he is hurting your website - advertising himself as an immigration expert, a couple times offering services, asking for a retainer, etc. that is beyond wrong. He can open his own damn website for that.

Oh

Mah

Godz

Seriously? That's pretty much illegal in every state in the US and I don't care where you've got your VJ server parked now, that is just asking for trouble St.. Ewok. Full circle man.

Not only illegal, just wrong on SO many levels. That is something that I think there should be ZERO tolerance on.

Who knows? Ban the bossy folk and you might give room for a lot of 'new' knowledgeable people to speak up and spread the knowledge base out some.

Is this true that he advertises on this site?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Is this true that he advertises on this site?

He opened a thread a while back in regards to "will ask for a retainer". I of course reported him and said thread was deleted after a few hours.

He has numerous time self-described as an "immigration expert"; and has in numerous times given WRONG information, yet apparently he is incapable of acknowledging said mistakes. Those mistakes had to do with the Consulate in Ciudad Juarez, and in Montreal.

And of course, there's the matter of him lacking any social grace. But that aside and to answer your question, yes he has.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Is this true that he advertises on this site?

He opened a thread a while back in regards to "will ask for a retainer". I of course reported him and said thread was deleted after a few hours.

He has numerous time self-described as an "immigration expert"; and has in numerous times given WRONG information, yet apparently he is incapable of acknowledging said mistakes. Those mistakes had to do with the Consulate in Ciudad Juarez, and in Montreal.

And of course, there's the matter of him lacking any social grace. But that aside and to answer your question, yes he has.

Sounds like a man who needs a run-in or two with some of OT's pitbulls. Get to PMing, sista.

[almaty 19]

Is this true that he advertises on this site?

He opened a thread a while back in regards to "will ask for a retainer". I of course reported him and said thread was deleted after a few hours.

He has numerous time self-described as an "immigration expert"; and has in numerous times given WRONG information, yet apparently he is incapable of acknowledging said mistakes. Those mistakes had to do with the Consulate in Ciudad Juarez, and in Montreal.

And of course, there's the matter of him lacking any social grace. But that aside and to answer your question, yes he has.

Sounds like a man who needs a run-in or two with some of OT's pitbulls. Get to PMing, sista.

or with Mr. Udall

[Captain Ewok 1,887]

Let me set the record straight.

- We can not control what people do outside of VJ. Period. We are not all knowing or seeing.

- We enforce the TOS on VJ to the best of our ability which includes an "advertising clause". This includes lawyers, businesses of any type, members with a business or any financial affiliation to a business they are name dropping. Many more things -- see the TOS.

- If someone advertises we give them first a warning. Second a suspension. Third potentially a ban. We do not allow links in any part of a members profile nor name dropping. If there is any we have them removed. We are very stern and go as far as to ask people directly if they have any affiliation with a company and if cought lying would face a ban.

- Please read the TOS completely. It bans the concerns you raised above. Many others too. If the TOS is missing something or not spelled out well let me know. I will ammend it! Report any potential offenses via the contact us page (or to a mod) for the fastest reply.

- We have warned a specific member on advertising for example and many more in the past. As I said, subsequent violations carry a strong response. Honestly to prevent spam, we are very strict on enforcing this if people try to dodge us beyond an initial violation.

[rebeccajo 14]

Answering a few points,

- The Praise /Report system is still used a lot with recent data

- We already have two Deputy Mods on VJ and are still trying to get more for the upper forums when we can match a qualified person to an area they feel comfortable with. This will address many of the concerns above about local knowledge.

- I would be happy to have someone or myself look over pushbrk's posts the next few weeks (and historical) and provide some good guidance or feedback if needed on 'tone' or 'mannerism'. If we do or don't find anything wrong -- it can't hurt to be sure.

Sometimes people imply that we may not be listening to feedback fully. Items two and three above are specific derivatives of this and other conversations. Ultimately I know that there is no winner or loser, only making good progress which is a result of hard work.

As a note. RJ, specifically, I need you to not flare up things with pushbrk or do the norm that happens with you guys if this effort is going to have a genuine chance at evaluating the alleged issues.

Kindly do not lecture me about stepping on his grace's toes, will ya? Because in my opinion, the Emperor in this case has no clothes.

[Captain Ewok 1,887]

RJ. I just want to be very clear. I am your personal moderator right now (my decision) and additionally I am going to (myself and maybe another person) be reviewing the allegations you made on this member (all their posts). I just want to evaluate this on their merits and not have any of the usual bickering that has gone on. It is not a demand. It is a request. I appreciate the helpo but feel free to do as you wish.

[rebeccajo 14]

RJ. I just want to be very clear. I am your personal moderator right now (my decision) and additionally I am going to (myself and maybe another person) be reviewing the allegations you made on this member (all their posts). I just want to evaluate this on their merits and not have any of the usual bickering that has gone on. It is not a demand. It is a request. I appreciate the helpo but feel free to do as you wish.

I told you I do not wish you to be my personal moderator. I do not require that kind of effort. I'm remarkably low-maintenance when people are fair and consistent.

On the other hand, my "justice meter" (as Shon used to call it) is going to go off if I feel people are being treated in the opposite manner. It doesn't matter to me if that individual happens to be another member of if they are a Moderator. They put their britches on the same way I do. I've got too much life under my belt to care one way or the other who you are (or who you think you are) when you decide to whip your ego out on somebody.

In case you or anybody reading is confused - what do I think this makes me? The "attitude" cop? I'd like to think not. I just have a low tolerance for mean people. I think they $uck.

[meauxna 15]

Let me set the record straight.

I don't get it .. is this some sort of language/culture problem here? The problem isn't the *advertising* because he's promoting a business, it's holding himself out to be something he is not. This is the sort of ####### that got the whole site in hot water when it *wasn't* profitable.

It's a breach of the public's trust IMO, and I can understand why the dreaded U could get his panties in a wad.

It's all ready bad enough that you run off any genuine help from people who do know.

If you think someone here is charging users for help with their cases, it should be 'off with their heads'.

[Captain Ewok 1,887]

We agree. Mean people do suck.

I know you don't need me as your personal mod but to prevent any further worries of accusations of unfair moderation towards you by the mods I am simply going to take over all duties. I am about as independent as it gets with regards to social clicks and other groups around the site. I simply want the site to run as smoothly as possible for everyone.

[Captain Ewok 1,887]

Let me set the record straight.

I don't get it .. is this some sort of language/culture problem here? The problem isn't the *advertising* because he's promoting a business, it's holding himself out to be something he is not. This is the sort of ####### that got the whole site in hot water when it *wasn't* profitable.

It's a breach of the public's trust IMO, and I can understand why the dreaded U could get his panties in a wad.

It's all ready bad enough that you run off any genuine help from people who do know.

If you think someone here is charging users for help with their cases, it should be 'off with their heads'.

I agree totally with you. Totally. If a member ever tries this they will get a warning and if they continue after that warning they may get the boot -- period. Please see the TOS. This is covered in there. I did not read every section of the TOS but that should be in there too. If it is not -- I will add it. Again, I agree with you. Trying to charge members here for anything is not what VJ is about regardless of your qualifications. If you want to advertise on VJ we have avenues for that but they do not include unsolicited methods nor by soliciting business on the forums.

[Captain Ewok 1,887]

From the TOS:

No Solicitation. You shall not distribute on or through the Service or to any persons or entities identified via Visajourney.com any Content or material containing solicitations or advertising of any kind without the express prior written permission of Visajourney.com. Lawyers, law firms, immigration related businesses or their proxies are prohibited from soliciting employment from prospective clients through the Forums or any of its interactive features. In the discussion forums you may discuss or recommend third-party Web sites, goods or services, so long as you have no financial interest in and receive no direct or indirect benefit from such Web sites, products or services, or the recommendation of such.