Moderator Inconsistency and Duplicity

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

You know what, Cap'n?

I'm just exasperated and worn out.

I've seen Mods give up because they can't figure out what to do around here. There's no consistency and there's no transparency. You and I are probably only having this conversation out in the open right now because I've said before that I don't like PM's.

I'm not really a nasty person. But I am sarcastic and I am a bottom-line thinker. I don't do BS and I don't do phony.

I've said it at least a dozen times before and I'm going to say it one more time. There USE to be posters on Vj in the upper forums who worked together. Somehow that has all broken down. When I get exasperated with the likes of Pushbrk, it's not because I want to be right. It's because I'd like to see a little bit of humility.

I give up. I really do.

I know you have good intentions. You are getting my entire chunk of the day because I respect you. That said, I flat out believe in being polite and considerate and using, yes, facts and evidence to back you up. My education is engineering so that is how I think by default. I know what you are trying to do but the way you do it with pushbrk on many occasions crosses the tos. You don;t hide that you hate them. Your passion certainly inhibits your ability to make your case when interacting with them. I am not nor pretend to be an immigration judge nor expert. Neither are you, neither is pushbrk. Using evidence is good and I agree with you on that. That said, you do admit it is in your opinion pushbrk's attitude that you really do not like and how he allegedly "forces" things on people. Arguing with him is futile. If you really believe he is chasing off members, suppressing them, spreading BS, then document it clearly. SHow me chains of evidence. Make your case to me. You arguing with him diminishes that case and certainly does not help your objective credibility.

[rebeccajo 14]

You know what, Cap'n?

I'm just exasperated and worn out.

I've seen Mods give up because they can't figure out what to do around here. There's no consistency and there's no transparency. You and I are probably only having this conversation out in the open right now because I've said before that I don't like PM's.

I'm not really a nasty person. But I am sarcastic and I am a bottom-line thinker. I don't do BS and I don't do phony.

I've said it at least a dozen times before and I'm going to say it one more time. There USE to be posters on Vj in the upper forums who worked together. Somehow that has all broken down. When I get exasperated with the likes of Pushbrk, it's not because I want to be right. It's because I'd like to see a little bit of humility.

I give up. I really do.

I know you have good intentions. You are getting my entire chunk of the day because I respect you. That said, I flat out believe in being polite and considerate and using, yes, facts and evidence to back you up. My education is engineering so that is how I think by default. I know what you are trying to do but the way you do it with pushbrk on many occasions crosses the tos. You don;t hide that you hate them. Your passion certainly inhibits your ability to make your case when interacting with them. I am not nor pretend to me an immigration judge nor expert. Neither are you, neither is pushbrk. Using evidence is good and I agree with you on that. That said, you do admit it is in your opinion pushbrk's attitude that you really do not like and how he allegedly "forces" things on people. Arguing with him is futile. If you really believe he is chasing off members, suppressing them, spreading BS, then document it clearly. SHow me chains of evidence. Make your case to me. You arguing with him diminishes that case and certainly does not help your objective credibility.

Um. That's not my style. I rarely use the Report button and you know it.

And I don't stalk him - or 'cyber hump' him as he calls it. Nor do I follow around others. I just move around reading and I see behaviors that either haven't changed or I see other members getting trampled.

As Push has said - I'm not appointed by you to be his watchdog or to correct accuracy of information. I don't even know why we are having this conversation. I sure don't need my ego stroked. It's your website not mine.

Edited November 28, 2009 by rebeccajo

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

True. RJ is just another poster. She's doing you a favor by letting you know someone may be hurting your website. Follow up efforts, if any, have to be yours.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

True. RJ is just another poster. She's doing you a favor by letting you know someone may be hurting your website. Follow up efforts, if any, have to be yours.

I agree and if this is true (or even not) I appreciate being notified. The most effective means is to show me evidence of said acts in a variety of circumstances. I not opposed to talking to a member (and I have in the past with this one) if they are doing something bad. That said, I actually do not see many reports coming in the bucket about pushbrk which is one way I can see trends. Using the internal "praise and report tool. Pushbrk shows as the #1 best rated member in fact in the last year and all time. Lots of good votes for them. I don't see them at all on the bad list. Go figure. I am just saying that I need data to show an opposite trend and am happy to help if there is a real issue.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

pushbrk is an alpha, all alphas develop a following and create enemies too.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

for the record, I am #7 and rj you are #9. Pretty good that we made the list too?

[morocco4ever 63]

Just for the record, Pushbrk has in the past advised members to come on a visitor visa. Then at the port of entry they should say they are just visiting, and hide the fact that their real intentions is to marry and adjust status here.

Now it may not be illegal to come to the US and get married, only to adjust status. But the bottom line is that this is riding the fence. And IMO very poor advice. I think people just don't bother reporting things because they don't believe it will solve any problems.

Does Pushbrk have good advice? Yes. Is all of his advice good and knowledgeable? No. And I think he gets away with so much here because he knows he can. I think you might be surprised at just how much people don't use the report button.

As for digs, I have been the recipient of some of his digs because I disagreed with him that people can control who the fall in love with, in the form that I don't have the ability due to lack of intelligence. Trust me, he does dig. And I find it a shame that he gets away with it as much as he does.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Great topic RJ. I could say much more about pushbrk's tactics, insulting of members personal experiences; but the whiner complained about me facing him up instead of taking it down like others do, and you put us on mutual ignore. Like AJ said, he is hurting your website - advertising himself as an immigration expert, a couple times offering services, asking for a retainer, etc. that is beyond wrong. He can open his own damn website for that.

As for the mod in question -TR- please. I think h/she has showed you repeatedly how not apt to be impartial and do a decent job he/she is. Just this past week he locked/deleted/invisoed threads/posts where he has no #@%!%^^ clue what was going on. In my reports (and unlike RJ I report with ease and gusto), i asked for the regional mod to take care of the matter; but TR could just NOT wait until charles was able to address it. He just HAD TO chime in and, pardon my french, completely ** it up.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Why not call a truce and ban BY?

[rebeccajo 14]

True. RJ is just another poster. She's doing you a favor by letting you know someone may be hurting your website. Follow up efforts, if any, have to be yours.

I agree and if this is true (or even not) I appreciate being notified. The most effective means is to show me evidence of said acts in a variety of circumstances. I not opposed to talking to a member (and I have in the past with this one) if they are doing something bad. That said, I actually do not see many reports coming in the bucket about pushbrk which is one way I can see trends. Using the internal "praise and report tool. Pushbrk shows as the #1 best rated member in fact in the last year and all time. Lots of good votes for them. I don't see them at all on the bad list. Go figure. I am just saying that I need data to show an opposite trend and am happy to help if there is a real issue.

Well, there ya go. You've just publicly announced his position as King.

I would hazard a guess that you are gathering your data from your "Praise" button. Which is a tool that hasn't been around here forever. I nearly choked on my tea at the statement "#1 best rated member of all time". The most helpful people you ever had on this site left way before you ever had such a tool. They worked together and not against each other. Something you don't have now and something you will never have if all you count on is "data".

I used to work with a woman whom the boss kept because she was good at what she did. Made him a lot of money and knew what she was doing. But he hired another girl to do the public contact. The "knowledgeable" girl was running off clients because she had no people skills.

Anyway - this thread isn't about Push. It just happens to revolve around an incident between himself and me.

What's really going on around here is not my fault, or Push's fault, or the fault of the Mods. It's yours. My understanding is that (because of problems encountered with your first group of Moderators many years ago) you had no site moderation for a couple of years. During this time a few very active members decided Vj was an amusement park and used it as such. There was some really sly and underhanded stuff that went on and it contributed to creating an environment so hostile that you eventually felt the need to create Regional Forums people could go to where they felt "safe". I never understood this concept of segregating the membership so they could be protected from profiling, racism and sexism.

Despite the Regionals, the monkey business continued to escalate until you decided you had to have a little help. So you gave a couple of people a little bit of global authority and went about your business. It's not lost on me though that you can't keep anybody on. The Mods get worn out trying to chase down what's going on in such a huge community. And you can't expect them to do their job if they are making decisions based upon what is happening in a particular thread but you overrule them because of "data". "Data" doesn't cover up stink, you know.

Then you have the other problem that, at the present moment, you've got Moderators who make snap decisions and who clearly don't read everything in front of them. I don't know what you all focus on when you get a report. In the case of the thread which caused me to post the one we are in now, you have gone to great lengths above to "count out" who had the most offenses - Pushbrk or myself. I guess everybody missed out on the reason I even spoke to him in that thread in the first place, which was because he was scoffing at the information being posted in the thread by a third member. I just don't like that.

Anyway - it's over. As mox said a couple of weeks ago, it's chasing windmills with you. You missed the point ages ago that you should have a couple of mods for each forum and they should be limited to those forums alone. If you had used such a system, you could even have taken people like Pushbrk and myself for moderation in our different fields of "expertise" where we could help others without butting heads. You could have kept egos in check and not created "super members" who are the "most helpful". It's smoke in your eyes to think any one member can be all knowing in all areas of this process - there is just too much too know. Someone like I Quit could have been modding the "Working" forum. Someone like JWolf could have modded "Adjusting from other Visa Types". Someone like emt103c could mod waivers. It takes a village you know - not just one or two "Kings". Global mods then could have been utilized to put out real fires and not take the heat for everything going down. And it would have checked their egos also - something sorely needed at the moment, IMO.

As we say to anyone else on the forums wherein we are pretty sure they have a messed-up situation but we hope they get what they want - good luck to you! You are going to need it.

[Allie and Nigel 2]

Not to sound too negative, however I think if people don't like this website, they don't HAVE to go on here. I think being a lurker, lurking to find "something" on "someone" is pointless and I think they need to get a different hobby. Its a dang website for heavens sake. I only read what helps me on this site and most of its good but, others need to read a book.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Allie and Nigel

[NArocks 13]

True. RJ is just another poster. She's doing you a favor by letting you know someone may be hurting your website. Follow up efforts, if any, have to be yours.

I agree and if this is true (or even not) I appreciate being notified. The most effective means is to show me evidence of said acts in a variety of circumstances. I not opposed to talking to a member (and I have in the past with this one) if they are doing something bad. That said, I actually do not see many reports coming in the bucket about pushbrk which is one way I can see trends. Using the internal "praise and report tool. Pushbrk shows as the #1 best rated member in fact in the last year and all time. Lots of good votes for them. I don't see them at all on the bad list. Go figure. I am just saying that I need data to show an opposite trend and am happy to help if there is a real issue.

Well, there ya go. You've just publicly announced his position as King.

I would hazard a guess that you are gathering your data from your "Praise" button. Which is a tool that hasn't been around here forever. I nearly choked on my tea at the statement "#1 best rated member of all time". The most helpful people you ever had on this site left way before you ever had such a tool. They worked together and not against each other. Something you don't have now and something you will never have if all you count on is "data".

I used to work with a woman whom the boss kept because she was good at what she did. Made him a lot of money and knew what she was doing. But he hired another girl to do the public contact. The "knowledgeable" girl was running off clients because she had no people skills.

Anyway - this thread isn't about Push. It just happens to revolve around an incident between himself and me.

What's really going on around here is not my fault, or Push's fault, or the fault of the Mods. It's yours. My understanding is that (because of problems encountered with your first group of Moderators many years ago) you had no site moderation for a couple of years. During this time a few very active members decided Vj was an amusement park and used it as such. There was some really sly and underhanded stuff that went on and it contributed to creating an environment so hostile that you eventually felt the need to create Regional Forums people could go to where they felt "safe". I never understood this concept of segregating the membership so they could be protected from profiling, racism and sexism.

Despite the Regionals, the monkey business continued to escalate until you decided you had to have a little help. So you gave a couple of people a little bit of global authority and went about your business. It's not lost on me though that you can't keep anybody on. The Mods get worn out trying to chase down what's going on in such a huge community. And you can't expect them to do their job if they are making decisions based upon what is happening in a particular thread but you overrule them because of "data". "Data" doesn't cover up stink, you know.

Then you have the other problem that, at the present moment, you've got Moderators who make snap decisions and who clearly don't read everything in front of them. I don't know what you all focus on when you get a report. In the case of the thread which caused me to post the one we are in now, you have gone to great lengths above to "count out" who had the most offenses - Pushbrk or myself. I guess everybody missed out on the reason I even spoke to him in that thread in the first place, which was because he was scoffing at the information being posted in the thread by a third member. I just don't like that.

Anyway - it's over. As mox said a couple of weeks ago, it's chasing windmills with you. You missed the point ages ago that you should have a couple of mods for each forum and they should be limited to those forums alone. If you had used such a system, you could even have taken people like Pushbrk and myself for moderation in our different fields of "expertise" where we could help others without butting heads. You could have kept egos in check and not created "super members" who are the "most helpful". It's smoke in your eyes to think any one member can be all knowing in all areas of this process - there is just too much too know. Someone like I Quit could have been modding the "Working" forum. Someone like JWolf could have modded "Adjusting from other Visa Types". Someone like emt103c could mod waivers. It takes a village you know - not just one or two "Kings". Global mods then could have been utilized to put out real fires and not take the heat for everything going down. And it would have checked their egos also - something sorely needed at the moment, IMO.

As we say to anyone else on the forums wherein we are pretty sure they have a messed-up situation but we hope they get what they want - good luck to you! You are going to need it.

And not to beat the dead horse you asked for examples , just read some posts of push and you will see that at times he becomes very condesending towrds the members. And it is allowed on a regular bases as the posts always stand and have not been removed.

As far as the modding issue, even though I have been here 2 short years I have seen a lot, I post on the subjects I know about and do not guess on others.

As RJ stated I Quit is a super member who comes and give excellent and accurate advise on what he knows period.

You have mods running around in regional forums who have no clue about said areas and then go and make posts invisible without knowing what the heck is going on.

I rarely report but I do when I see the thread going out of control and it needs to be addressed. IS it? Most of the times it is, but there are times when it gets way out of control because no one is around. This is not good as it hurts the whole site and it's members.

I am grateful to VJ I have finished ROC for the hubby yet still have a few more steps to take. I am glad the older memebers where around when I came in, however if something is not done then the bases of this helpful site will go down the toilet IMHO.

ME

[SuperDuper! 230]

I concur, NA. Pushbrk is a sharp guy and offers accurate info, that's good. But he tends to go into attack mode and belittle others at the drop of a hat, and that's bad 'cause it chases away newcomers just looking for basic VJ guidance. Same effect as allowing veteran members to bash noobs and tell them to stfu. I thought this behavior would no longer be tolerated here. It's better to be kind and welcoming I always say.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

Answering a few points,

- The Praise /Report system is still used a lot with recent data

- We already have two Deputy Mods on VJ and are still trying to get more for the upper forums when we can match a qualified person to an area they feel comfortable with. This will address many of the concerns above about local knowledge.

- I would be happy to have someone or myself look over pushbrk's posts the next few weeks (and historical) and provide some good guidance or feedback if needed on 'tone' or 'mannerism'. If we do or don't find anything wrong -- it can't hurt to be sure.

Sometimes people imply that we may not be listening to feedback fully. Items two and three above are specific derivatives of this and other conversations. Ultimately I know that there is no winner or loser, only making good progress which is a result of hard work.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

Answering a few points,

- The Praise /Report system is still used a lot with recent data

- We already have two Deputy Mods on VJ and are still trying to get more for the upper forums when we can match a qualified person to an area they feel comfortable with. This will address many of the concerns above about local knowledge.

- I would be happy to have someone or myself look over pushbrk's posts the next few weeks (and historical) and provide some good guidance or feedback if needed on 'tone' or 'mannerism'. If we do or don't find anything wrong -- it can't hurt to be sure.

Sometimes people imply that we may not be listening to feedback fully. Items two and three above are specific derivatives of this and other conversations. Ultimately I know that there is no winner or loser, only making good progress which is a result of hard work.

As a note. RJ, specifically, I need you to not flare up things with pushbrk or do the norm that happens with you guys if this effort is going to have a genuine chance at evaluating the alleged issues.