Gunman Massacres 4 Family Members After Dinner

[Peikko 1,575]

And lastly, if you fear an idiot with a gun, why would you not fear being without a gun when there are a whole bunch of idiots with guns? After all, that's sensible!

No, not affording every idiot the opportunity to have a gun is what's sensible. More guns don't create more security. The stats show that quite impressively. And life experiences in both environments affirm these stats.

That's your idea of sensible is it? The more 'normal' it is to carry and use a gun to solve problems the more the rise in unnecessary violence and death and the more unstable society becomes. There are models for this paradise where everyone with enough cash totes a gun, and they are not industrial, wealthy nations.

Having a healthy fear of idiots with guns is not showing them any respect whatsoever, but you probably haven't learned how to garner respect without one, so I wouldn't expect you to know that.

[Heracles 417]

Have you noticed that some of these guys actually justify carrying a gun, just in case you disagree with the government? ####### are the teaching in these schools?

The only other person I know who thinks like this is my friend in Aus who is from South Africa. Which I promptly remind him of SA having the 9th highest homicide rate in the world.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Booyah!

[slim 1,525]

No, not affording every idiot the opportunity to have a gun is what's sensible.

It's already illegal for anyone under disability to possess a firearm. What more do you want?

More guns don't create more security.

That all depends on who's holding the guns.

The stats show that quite impressively.

Which stats? Where? Are you referring to the Nazis, the Soviets or the Chinese?

And life experiences in both environments affirm these stats.

So you've been somewhere where only "the good guys" have guns? How about been in the same room with an idiot holding a gun?

That's your idea of sensible is it? The more 'normal' it is to carry and use a gun to solve problems the more the rise in unnecessary violence and death and the more unstable society becomes.

What's the 'normal' way to stop someone who's shooting at you? (And let's just assume I don't think laying there and dying is 'normal' or acceptable.)

Also, why would anyone use a gun for any other purpose than to prevent someone from causing them death or serious bodily harm? As for solving problems, there are very few problems that can be solved with a gun. However, someone causing you death or serious bodily harm is one of those problems, and countering that with arms is, generally, the most effective solution. (There are two options - fight or flight. Laying there getting shot is not, and should never be an option.)

As for the rise in unnecessary violence and death and the more unstable socitey becomes - let's take this back to AUStralia for a minute - during the days of the "wild, wild west" here in the U.S., back when all those cowboys had guns and everybody was out shooting and it was just craziness in the streets (or so we've been led to believe) do you know what the average rate of homicide for most towns was? I'll give you a hint (think AUS!) it was about 1.5 homicides per yer. If everyone had guns... why was it only 1.5 per year? Also, here's another tidbit for you - more and more U.S. states are now issuing concealed carry permits. Why is violent crime going down? I thought more guns meant it was supposed to go up. I thought more "unnecessary violence and death" was supposed to happen when there were more guns. Why hasn't that happened?

There are models for this paradise where everyone with enough cash totes a gun, and they are not industrial, wealthy nations.

"the more unstable a society becomes." So an unstable society is caused by people solving problems with guns? Google Switzerland real quick and see how stable they've been for, oh, the last 75 years. Now I know what you're thinking - Somalia - and you are correct. They're solving their problems with guns too. However, going back through this post a little, I hope you've got a feel for which problems you solve with guns and which ones you don't. It's not the outcome of dispute resolution that defines society, it's the tools that are used.

Having a healthy fear of idiots with guns is not showing them any respect whatsoever, but you probably haven't learned how to garner respect without one, so I wouldn't expect you to know that.

When you have a healthy fear, you are showing respect. Fear is nothing more than a respect for capability that could cause you harm. If you didn't respect it's capabilities, you wouldn't fear it. Baby lion... awww. Big @$$ 350-lb. lion that looks hungry... It's not that I have an inherent fear of lions, it's that I respect the larger lion's ability to eat me, and therefore, I fear it.

Taking a cheap shot at me and saying I don't know how to garner respect without a gun shows not that you're losing an argument on the internet, but that you have no idea how much respect you will have when you face someone with a gun. You don't have to respect that person.... but you have to respect their capability. You can tell me all day long that you don't have to or that you won't, but your opinion on the issue has ZERO influence when someone standing inches away from you has the capability to end your life in the blink of an eye. If you fear that, good. If you don't respect it, you're lying.

Have you noticed that some of these guys actually justify carrying a gun, just in case you disagree with the government?

Who has made that argument on here? I don't think a single pro-gun person in this OT thread has even alluded to that. However, I believe the fundamental difference between all the pro-gun folks and the anti-gun (and just because you own a gun doesn't lop you into the pro-gun crowd) folks is the fact that pro-fun people understand why we have a 2nd Amendment and why it's necessary - even today. I won't waste anymore keystrokes defending that position, but it has nothing to do with carrying a gun and everything to do with having a gun to carry, should the need arise.

####### are the teaching in these schools?

They're obviously not teaching the history and heritage of America. They're also not teaching fundamental principles like accountability, competition, sportsmanship, leadership. However, they do a very good job of preparing young people for a life of servitude to the status quo.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

More guns don't create more security.

That all depends on who's holding the guns.

Well, if you would try and leave the statement in it's context, then you wouldn't have to make dull comments like this.

No, not affording every idiot the opportunity to have a gun is what's sensible. More guns don't create more security.

The stats show that quite impressively.

Which stats? Where? Are you referring to the Nazis, the Soviets or the Chinese?

No, the stats that compare gun violence between the US and other developed countries.

And life experiences in both environments affirm these stats.

So you've been somewhere where only "the good guys" have guns? How about been in the same room with an idiot holding a gun?

It's not about "good guys". It's about those charged with maintaining public safety bearing arms rather than the whole damn population. Such setting pretty much drives the odds of the latter scenario towards zero. And it works. That's the very point the gun fetishists just don't get.

[Heracles 417]

Slim is another one of those I'll get em before they get me fantasy world types. I have been here for four years now and not once have I heard on the news that a gun toting bloke saved the day using their gun. DC area has over 5.5 million people living here.

As I said to Charles, by the time he or slim even thinks about taking out their guuuuns a barrel is at their head or they have been shot by the perpetrator. Futhermore, human nature is to freeze. I have seen documentaries where even well trained police officers who have used guns all of their life, freeze when there is sudden gunfire. So the thought that these guys will pull some sort of John Wayne move is fantasy by any stretch.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Booyah!

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

Slim is another one of those I'll get em before they get me fantasy world types. I have been here for four years now and not once have I heard on the news that a gun toting bloke saved the day using their gun. DC area has over 5.5 million people living here.

does dc have a conceal carry permit?

As I said to Charles, by the time he or slim even thinks about taking out their guuuuns a barrel is at their head or they have been shot by the perpetrator. Futhermore, human nature is to freeze. I have seen documentaries where even well trained police officers who have used guns all of their life, freeze when there is sudden gunfire. So the thought that these guys will pull some sort of John Wayne move is fantasy by any stretch.

useless conjecture on your part.

[Heracles 417]

Slim is another one of those I\'ll get em before they get me fantasy world types. I have been here for four years now and not once have I heard on the news that a gun toting bloke saved the day using their gun. DC area has over 5.5 million people living here.

does dc have a conceal carry permit?

Area meaning DC, MD, VA and even parts of WV.

As I said to Charles, by the time he or slim even thinks about taking out their guuuuns a barrel is at their head or they have been shot by the perpetrator. Futhermore, human nature is to freeze. I have seen documentaries where even well trained police officers who have used guns all of their life, freeze when there is sudden gunfire. So the thought that these guys will pull some sort of John Wayne move is fantasy by any stretch.

useless conjecture on your part.

I am sure you have countless examples of someone 'packing heat' saving the day.

Too bad countries with strict gun laws, like Japan, have 92% less homicides.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Booyah!

[Peikko 1,575]

Seems Slim still doesn't understand what respect means. Surprised I am not. As for the rest, Switzerland Yes, every swiss adult carries a gun at all times, they police themselves, it's a well known fact.

[웃 910]

In Alaska you can buy a gun without a permit/license or having to register the weapon. I think the only requirement is not to have a domestic violence charge or felony conviction and to be older than 18 (could be 21, not sure)...

Edited December 1, 2009 by Confucian

[Kevin and 10]

I am sure you have countless examples of someone 'packing heat' saving the day.

Is this enough or do you need more?

http://cbs4.com/local/miami.catering.yolene.2.1340526.html

http://www.kptv.com/fox12investigators/21738557/detail.html

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...in-self-defense

http://www.2news.tv/news/local/70194932.html

http://www.news8austin.com/content/top_sto...rID=256755&

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...in-self-defense

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local...UI.html?sid=101

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...invading-rapist

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/200...wego_count.html

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20091...TICLE/910271041

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...l-police-arrive

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...EC?OpenDocument

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...in-self-defense

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...in-self-defense

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...be-home-invader

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...in-self-defense

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/...e-say-1.1573113

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...t-home-invaders

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefens...y-permit-holder

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpp/news/Bank_...d_Robber_100809

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn....20e01a937.html

[Joseph & Ana 0]

Ban knives, ban swords, ban antifreeze (ethylene glycol), ban fat, sugar, high fructose corn syrup, blunt objects, sharp objects, heavy objects, light objects that can be used to suffocate, plastic wrap, shrink wrap, rope, cars, tapeworms, etc etc...

All of these can be killers. They need to be stopped.

[Heracles 417]

I am sure you have countless examples of someone 'packing heat' saving the day.

Is this enough or do you need more?

I need to remember who I am dealing with. Finding a handful of examples does not mean this is the norm. You guys never seize to amaze me with this style of reasoning. For example, I could say Australia has a however poverty rate than the US and illustrate it, yet you guys will assume this is discredited the second you find an article or two where an Aussie is living on the street. Evidently common sense for many went out the window many years ago.

Nonetheless, lets compare the number of people that saved the day in self-defense to the number of people murdered or permanently disabled. Lets also add the suicide factor in.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

I am sure you have countless examples of someone 'packing heat' saving the day.

Too bad countries with strict gun laws, like Japan, have 92% less homicides.

maybe there are, but you don't care to look for them....

Americans use a gun in self defense once every 13 seconds:

The National Self Defense Survey, as conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, indicates that Americans use guns in self defense 2,500,000 times per year, which is once every 13 seconds.

In about 30% of the defensive gun uses, the would-be victim believes that the gun “almost certainly” or “probably” saved a life.

In more than 1/2 of the self defense gun uses, the would-be victim was under attack by 2 or more criminals, making a firearm the only viable means of self defense for most people.

The overwhelming majority of these defensive gun uses were never reported by the news media.

Gun ownership protects 65 lives for every 2 lives lost.

link

don't like that one?

CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA -- A Charleston County homeowner held an intruder at gunpoint early Sunday after hearing a noise on the second floor of his home on Grand Concourse Street, authorities said Sunday.

Jessie Pinckney, 19, of Charleston, has been charged with first-degree burglary, according to an arrest warrant. A judge ordered Pinckney held without bond.

Charleston County Sheriff's Office deputies said a man used a ladder in the homeowner's back yard to climb to the roof at 1:12 a.m. and enter the house through an unlocked window.

When the homeowner heard a noise upstairs, he got a shotgun and found the intruder in a hallway. The intruder was held at gunpoint until deputies arrived, according to the warrant.

link

or how about this one?

OKLAHOMA CITY -- It may be another case of the "Make My Day" law. A homeowner uses deadly force against an intruder, who was found inside his home.

It all happened shortly after 11:30 a.m. Tuesday in the 2200 block of S.W. 57th. That's when a man came home to find a strange truck in his driveway.

A television set was sitting in the back of that truck, however Oklahoma City police would not confirm this was a burglary. They say when the homeowner went inside and found a stranger. He produced a gun and fatally shot the intruder.

Neighbors say that area has been riddled with burglaries and they're not surprised by what happened.

"What if he had family at home?" said neighbor Shannon Hoverson, whose house was burglarized two years ago. "If this was a robbery, he (intruder) got what he deserved."

After police left the scene, the family's church pastor answered the door and said the homeowner did not want to comment on what happened. He said that man was obviously going through a difficult time.

The alledged burglar was, Ronald Penn. Police say he was hiding in the house. After a brief confrontation, Mr. Penn was shot and killed by Mr. Henson.

Evidence at the scene indicates there was a second burglary suspect involved in the break-in. At this time the second suspect has not been identified. Anyone with information regarding this event should call Crime Stoppers at 235-7300.

link

It was the sort of incident that never makes it into the official crime statistics - that is, an incident in which a crime may have been prevented by a firearm.

It happened earlier this month in Irvine. Police were looking for a man suspected of raping an 18-year-old woman in her home. As the cops searched, the fleeing suspect, a 27-year-old L.A. gang member, tried to hide by breaking into another home. Inside, the homeowner, a man who had recently undergone defensive firearms training, heard the commotion, grabbed a handgun and confronted the suspect.

more about the story here

we can do this all day, you know. as long as it does not sink in that guns are used frequently for lawful defense of self and property, and there are documented examples of it, then yes, you'll continue to have a jaundiced view towards them.

but i know defending your home, property, life and lives of those you love isn't as newsworthy.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I am sure you have countless examples of someone 'packing heat' saving the day.

Too bad countries with strict gun laws, like Japan, have 92% less homicides.

maybe there are, but you don't care to look for them....

Americans use a gun in self defense once every 13 seconds

And yet, they wouldn't need to if we didn't have a situation where every idiot can easily obtain a gun.

[Heracles 417]

Ban knives, ban swords, ban antifreeze (ethylene glycol), ban fat, sugar, high fructose corn syrup, blunt objects, sharp objects, heavy objects, light objects that can be used to suffocate, plastic wrap, shrink wrap, rope, cars, tapeworms, etc etc...

All of these can be killers. They need to be stopped.

Some of those are banned abroad actually. Even though something like anti-freeze is self-explanatory, it does seem to evade you. Anti-freeze by nature is not a weapon. Whereas, a gun only has one purpose.

"Right to bear arms". Arms = weapons. The Constitution does not state what type specifically does it? Therefore, why should I not be able to store a ballistic missile or an armed tank or a RPG?