Soviet era marriage history and the I-129F

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Clarification/Update

Yes, I meant K-1

After her re-marriage to husband #1, they remained married until he died five years ago.

I know that the I-129F is for me to complete but she must provide me with some of the information such as dates marriages ended and names of spouses. This form does not ask for dates of marriages--only dates the marriage ended. I know that divorce documents are required to be attached but marriage documents? She found her divorce documents, so she has the name and date of the divorce, at least. I know ZAGS will have these records and if necessary she will have to ask for official copies of these. Looking at our immigration for 129F, it only asks for date the marriage ended...........?????

On a personal level now.......I know this appears radical to our American mindset as a "scam". But one must also remember that under communism the only way to accomplish many things was to scam the government. And everyone in the Soviet Union in those days participated in many scams--unless they were high in the party. Scamming the Soviet government in those days meant survival. I don't think it belongs under the heading of scam as we know it today. Frankly, I have no negative judgement about scamming the Soviet system.....my difficulty is using the institution of marriage to accomplish this. But we have discussed this and I have expressed myself to her honestly. I could never have encouraged my wife to divorce me and marry another man....but I was not living under her conditions either.

If she changed her name she must include marriage certificates(s) with the petition. If there was no name change, then she will need them only for the interview. If her name on her birth certificate and on the I-129f matches and has NEVER been changed at any time, no need for marriage certificates with the petition. She needs a death certificate for the other husband. Translated. She should provide you with the information to fill in on the forms. Other documents ask when the marriages were entered into. You need to know this.

The I-129f is a petition. It is not a visa application, she will do that at the consulate. YOU (if youa re smart) will fill out those forms in their entirety also and have her sign thewm. The petition needs to establsih ONLY that yuou are free to marry...divorced. However, read the instructions closely...if any person has used a name other than what is listed on the I-129f, you neeed to attach documents showing the name change. How did Mary Smith become Mary Jones? Throughout this process, you are going to have to read very carefully and interpret very literally.

As for the other, you are posting in the RUB forum which means we are married to former Soviet citizens (most of us, unless they are very young)and/or lived there ourselves and/or are the former Soviet citizen ourselves. We know what people did under communism. But was it under communism? I know it seems strange, and I could never deal with pimping out my wife to get a flat in Moscow...or the US for that matter, but it is done everyday by hundreds of people.

[392ihc 0]

My friends,

Thank you to each of you who have taken such an interest in this post!  Wow.   Some of you have a greater attention to and tolerance for details than most folks! More unfolds daily.  Yes, on a personal level, I have been very concerned about the gaps and holes in the story.  My decision has been to pursue the truth at risk of ending the relationship.  I certainly have had my own concerns even before my initial post here.  She is 49 yrs. and I am 60.  Please understand, as I do, that there are no legal, moral, or certainly sexual "virgins" at our ages!  When you get my age you more fully understand that all of us have "stories" that we would rather not share with others.  I believe it is not the existence of these "stories" that is hazardous to our future but the way we choose to live with these "stories".  We can go into denial and build a protective barriers around our past so that it never comes up.......or we can selectively reveal these things to trustworthy people and thus build trust and acceptance.  We all make these choices.  Certainly I have things in my past that are difficult to reveal as maybe some of you do also.  My interest in another person's past, I believe, should be limited to the risk/concern/possibility such things may occur again with her in the future. And she has a similar reason to be interested in my past.  For me, I look for evidence that objectionable behaviors in a woman's past (according to my value system) have been examined and mistakes acknowleged and amends made where wrong..... She has the same right to question me in this regard, IMO. If we discover such differences we cannot accept, then the relationship should be terminated.

Now, that all said, we have had some long serious discussions on msn chat site about all this and I have pressed her repeatedly for more details. Now I will tell you some of the important ones.

In Azerbijan, Armenian Christians are hated fiercely. Armenians have been persecuted for centuries--almost as much as the Jews. My financee is Armenian. Her first husband was Azerbijani. He was working in Baku in the petroleum development in the Caspian Sea. During the rebellion, hundreds of Armenians were killed by mobs. The Soviet army went into to restore order. Russians are hated there only after Armenians. Her husband was attacked and beaten for having an Armenian wife. He was threatened with death if he did not divorce her. He lost his job because of this. They lived in constant fear for their lives. At her insistence, they divorced and she left for Moscow with their child. Later he followed and they lived together in Moscow.

Here is where she fibbed on the story to me.............her now ex-husband worked an under-the-table deal with a distant relative to buy an apartment. Remember it was still the Soviet Union. You didn't really buy an apartment. You were assigned rooms within a flat based upon the number in your family! His relative evidently had enough numbers that they were able to get an apartment for themselves. BUT....this relative had a price he wanted. He had a friend who wanted a "paper marriage" with a woman to get himself more rooms in his building. So this distant relative insisted that his "price" was for my fiancee to marry this man!!! Her first husband ordered her to do this. She went to ZAGS and married him. She divorced him five weeks later on her own. She saw him only once at the marriage.

She admits to me that this was a mistake but also says she always did what her husband told her to do.

I also discovered that one of the other reasons she was so reluctant to tell me these things is that she believed that the contents of IM chat were monitored by either or both of our governments. She still fears reprisals in Russia and, of course, a denial of our visa application. I lied maybe when I assured her that my government does not collect information this way. And I told her truly that she has a new government now and I think they would never be interested in such things from 20 years ago. So, she told me all of the above. Damn. After she said I was right and that she felt better having told me. I told her I understood and thanked her. But I also told her plainly that I would never, never have done what her husband did with her! Part of her reluctance to tell me the whole story is because of her shame for having done this. She wanted this secret to die with her husband.

I have completed the I-129F Petition with all marriages and divorces reported with her agreement.

If I understand correctly, she will need a copy of all marriage and divorce certificates, and birth certificate for the interview? She says the marriage papers were taken at the time of the divorces? Copies may be available but here is another problem. She needs an official copy of her birth certificate, which is in Baku. Also one marriage and one divorce occurred in Baku. And she tells me that it is virtually impossible to receive these from their government??? She has talked to a lawyer in Moscow for advise as to how to handle this request.

So, I'm still very open to advice but, I will tell you, unless something else is revealed, I fully intend to move forward with this woman. There are a hell of a lot of other attributes about her that more than make up for this mistake. At 60 years of age I certainly am a big boy!

Finally, does anyone think it would be wise to hire an immigration lawyer? American firm with a branch in Russia?

Some of you have followed this thread intently and I felt a need to tell you the story straight, as I have it. I'm sorry this is so long!! Thanks for your interest and support.

Mike

[slim 1,530]

Mike, at your ages, you obviously know what's real and what's not. Who cares what happened 20 years ago? And seriously, that kind of thing happened all the time in Russia. Still does, actually. It means absolutely zero to the women involved and shouldn't mean anything to you either.

If I were you, I would NOT hire an American lawyer however, I would maybe invest a little money in tracking down those documents from Baku. Her lawyer in Moscow will probably know someone who can get the papers for her but they may cost a little cash. Don't go throwing thousands of dollars at this, but a few hundred can probably be expected. Anything more, go direct with the embassy and see if they can help. The way it'll probably work though is you'll send her (or her attorney) a couple hundred bucks and all the papers you need will magically appear. Pretty standard for Russia working through FSU for "official" documents.

Good luck, and any other questions, don't hesitate to post them.

[Kailey 3]

Mike, at your ages, you obviously know what's real and what's not. Who cares what happened 20 years ago? And seriously, that kind of thing happened all the time in Russia. Still does, actually. It means absolutely zero to the women involved and shouldn't mean anything to you either.

If I were you, I would NOT hire an American lawyer however, I would maybe invest a little money in tracking down those documents from Baku. Her lawyer in Moscow will probably know someone who can get the papers for her but they may cost a little cash. Don't go throwing thousands of dollars at this, but a few hundred can probably be expected. Anything more, go direct with the embassy and see if they can help. The way it'll probably work though is you'll send her (or her attorney) a couple hundred bucks and all the papers you need will magically appear. Pretty standard for Russia working through FSU for "official" documents.

Good luck, and any other questions, don't hesitate to post them.

Probably first time on this forum when i would agree with Slim.

I think you should focus on spending some money here to obtain those documents. She can't go on a trip to Baku, right? To personally request those docs (probably would be the easiest solution).

And as for the story - yes, such things happened a lot here (i am from Russia). And in some cases it was a pure business partnership, nothing else.

I wish you good luck and probably patience - you'll need it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Mike, at your ages, you obviously know what's real and what's not. Who cares what happened 20 years ago? And seriously, that kind of thing happened all the time in Russia. Still does, actually. It means absolutely zero to the women involved and shouldn't mean anything to you either.

If I were you, I would NOT hire an American lawyer however, I would maybe invest a little money in tracking down those documents from Baku. Her lawyer in Moscow will probably know someone who can get the papers for her but they may cost a little cash. Don't go throwing thousands of dollars at this, but a few hundred can probably be expected. Anything more, go direct with the embassy and see if they can help. The way it'll probably work though is you'll send her (or her attorney) a couple hundred bucks and all the papers you need will magically appear. Pretty standard for Russia working through FSU for "official" documents.

Good luck, and any other questions, don't hesitate to post them.

In general I agree...who cares about 20 years ago? However if the information from 20 years ago was that she scammed men for benefits, it would be a deal breaker. Seems like everyone knew going in what was going on and that certiainly did and does happen even now. And it sounds like you have more details.

BUT...

you will need

1. First marriage certificate

2. First Divorce certificate

3. Second marriage certificate

4. Second divorce certificate

5. Third marriage certificate (to same guy as 1)

6. Death certificate

If she changed her name at any point you will need ALL of this for the petition. If she has never changed her name, you need only the divorce and death certificates for the petition. You will need the others for the interview. All must be translated. An American attorney would be a complete waste of time and money, he cannot get you thse documents better than you or she can get them.

[baron555 934]

Mike, at your ages, you obviously know what's real and what's not. Who cares what happened 20 years ago? And seriously, that kind of thing happened all the time in Russia. Still does, actually. It means absolutely zero to the women involved and shouldn't mean anything to you either.

If I were you, I would NOT hire an American lawyer however, I would maybe invest a little money in tracking down those documents from Baku. Her lawyer in Moscow will probably know someone who can get the papers for her but they may cost a little cash. Don't go throwing thousands of dollars at this, but a few hundred can probably be expected. Anything more, go direct with the embassy and see if they can help. The way it'll probably work though is you'll send her (or her attorney) a couple hundred bucks and all the papers you need will magically appear. Pretty standard for Russia working through FSU for "official" documents.

Good luck, and any other questions, don't hesitate to post them.

In general I agree...who cares about 20 years ago? However if the information from 20 years ago was that she scammed men for benefits, it would be a deal breaker. Seems like everyone knew going in what was going on and that certiainly did and does happen even now. And it sounds like you have more details.

BUT...

you will need

1. First marriage certificate

2. First Divorce certificate

3. Second marriage certificate

4. Second divorce certificate

5. Third marriage certificate (to same guy as 1)

6. Death certificate

If she changed her name at any point you will need ALL of this for the petition. If she has never changed her name, you need only the divorce and death certificates for the petition. You will need the others for the interview. All must be translated. An American attorney would be a complete waste of time and money, he cannot get you thse documents better than you or she can get them.

I would only question for the need for the marriage certificates at the interview. The Moscow Embassy does not require these; Alla did not have that and she got approved.

She did have a different document when she changed her name back to her family surname from her ex's surname.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Mike, at your ages, you obviously know what's real and what's not. Who cares what happened 20 years ago? And seriously, that kind of thing happened all the time in Russia. Still does, actually. It means absolutely zero to the women involved and shouldn't mean anything to you either.

If I were you, I would NOT hire an American lawyer however, I would maybe invest a little money in tracking down those documents from Baku. Her lawyer in Moscow will probably know someone who can get the papers for her but they may cost a little cash. Don't go throwing thousands of dollars at this, but a few hundred can probably be expected. Anything more, go direct with the embassy and see if they can help. The way it'll probably work though is you'll send her (or her attorney) a couple hundred bucks and all the papers you need will magically appear. Pretty standard for Russia working through FSU for "official" documents.

Good luck, and any other questions, don't hesitate to post them.

In general I agree...who cares about 20 years ago? However if the information from 20 years ago was that she scammed men for benefits, it would be a deal breaker. Seems like everyone knew going in what was going on and that certiainly did and does happen even now. And it sounds like you have more details.

BUT...

you will need

1. First marriage certificate

2. First Divorce certificate

3. Second marriage certificate

4. Second divorce certificate

5. Third marriage certificate (to same guy as 1)

6. Death certificate

If she changed her name at any point you will need ALL of this for the petition. If she has never changed her name, you need only the divorce and death certificates for the petition. You will need the others for the interview. All must be translated. An American attorney would be a complete waste of time and money, he cannot get you thse documents better than you or she can get them.

I would only question for the need for the marriage certificates at the interview. The Moscow Embassy does not require these; Alla did not have that and she got approved.

She did have a different document when she changed her name back to her family surname from her ex's surname.

Phil, you are correct. In the presence of the "name change certificate" she does not need a marriage license. I should more correctly say she needs EITHER the marriage certificate or name change certificate. EITHER is acceptable. The goal is to show the official path of name changes and how a woman gets from "Smith to Jones" as it were. My mistake. I believe the OP has said he has the divorce certificates. If it is easier to get the name change certificate from ZAKS then so be it, no need to chase after the marriage certificates.

FYI, Alla never changed her name and we STILL needed to show her marriage (or name change certificate) at our interview but we did not need it for the petiton as she had never changed her name.

The OP will also need to fill out the G-325a and list "other names used"

Alla does translations for Russian and Ukrainian documents and we often have to deal with this for petitions. It is rarely an issue for the man, but if a woman's name has been changed at all, and certainly if it has been changed more than once, it is wise to include the marriage/name change certificates with the petition. Copies are OK and often the petitioners submit a scan of her translation while the originals are in the mail and have the originals for the interview. One normally doesn't send originals of supporting documents with the petition anyway and a scan/print is as good as a copy anyday.

[Waitinggent 2]

Is she saying that the documents in Baku are impossible to get because they no longer have them? Why would they refuse her if they have them? Payment for these documents should be enough to get them if they exist unless she is wanted for some crime in Azerbaizhan. And don't forget that she will need a police certificate from Azerbaizhan. You certainly should ask your fiance if she committed any crimes in Azerbaizhan during this terrible period. Good luck.

My friends,

Thank you to each of you who have taken such an interest in this post!  Wow.   Some of you have a greater attention to and tolerance for details than most folks! More unfolds daily.  Yes, on a personal level, I have been very concerned about the gaps and holes in the story.  My decision has been to pursue the truth at risk of ending the relationship.  I certainly have had my own concerns even before my initial post here.  She is 49 yrs. and I am 60.  Please understand, as I do, that there are no legal, moral, or certainly sexual "virgins" at our ages!  When you get my age you more fully understand that all of us have "stories" that we would rather not share with others.  I believe it is not the existence of these "stories" that is hazardous to our future but the way we choose to live with these "stories".  We can go into denial and build a protective barriers around our past so that it never comes up.......or we can selectively reveal these things to trustworthy people and thus build trust and acceptance.  We all make these choices.  Certainly I have things in my past that are difficult to reveal as maybe some of you do also.  My interest in another person's past, I believe, should be limited to the risk/concern/possibility such things may occur again with her in the future. And she has a similar reason to be interested in my past.  For me, I look for evidence that objectionable behaviors in a woman's past (according to my value system) have been examined and mistakes acknowleged and amends made where wrong..... She has the same right to question me in this regard, IMO. If we discover such differences we cannot accept, then the relationship should be terminated.

Now, that all said, we have had some long serious discussions on msn chat site about all this and I have pressed her repeatedly for more details. Now I will tell you some of the important ones.

In Azerbijan, Armenian Christians are hated fiercely. Armenians have been persecuted for centuries--almost as much as the Jews. My financee is Armenian. Her first husband was Azerbijani. He was working in Baku in the petroleum development in the Caspian Sea. During the rebellion, hundreds of Armenians were killed by mobs. The Soviet army went into to restore order. Russians are hated there only after Armenians. Her husband was attacked and beaten for having an Armenian wife. He was threatened with death if he did not divorce her. He lost his job because of this. They lived in constant fear for their lives. At her insistence, they divorced and she left for Moscow with their child. Later he followed and they lived together in Moscow.

Here is where she fibbed on the story to me.............her now ex-husband worked an under-the-table deal with a distant relative to buy an apartment. Remember it was still the Soviet Union. You didn't really buy an apartment. You were assigned rooms within a flat based upon the number in your family! His relative evidently had enough numbers that they were able to get an apartment for themselves. BUT....this relative had a price he wanted. He had a friend who wanted a "paper marriage" with a woman to get himself more rooms in his building. So this distant relative insisted that his "price" was for my fiancee to marry this man!!! Her first husband ordered her to do this. She went to ZAGS and married him. She divorced him five weeks later on her own. She saw him only once at the marriage.

She admits to me that this was a mistake but also says she always did what her husband told her to do.

I also discovered that one of the other reasons she was so reluctant to tell me these things is that she believed that the contents of IM chat were monitored by either or both of our governments. She still fears reprisals in Russia and, of course, a denial of our visa application. I lied maybe when I assured her that my government does not collect information this way. And I told her truly that she has a new government now and I think they would never be interested in such things from 20 years ago. So, she told me all of the above. Damn. After she said I was right and that she felt better having told me. I told her I understood and thanked her. But I also told her plainly that I would never, never have done what her husband did with her! Part of her reluctance to tell me the whole story is because of her shame for having done this. She wanted this secret to die with her husband.

I have completed the I-129F Petition with all marriages and divorces reported with her agreement.

If I understand correctly, she will need a copy of all marriage and divorce certificates, and birth certificate for the interview? She says the marriage papers were taken at the time of the divorces? Copies may be available but here is another problem. She needs an official copy of her birth certificate, which is in Baku. Also one marriage and one divorce occurred in Baku. And she tells me that it is virtually impossible to receive these from their government??? She has talked to a lawyer in Moscow for advise as to how to handle this request.

So, I'm still very open to advice but, I will tell you, unless something else is revealed, I fully intend to move forward with this woman. There are a hell of a lot of other attributes about her that more than make up for this mistake. At 60 years of age I certainly am a big boy!

Finally, does anyone think it would be wise to hire an immigration lawyer? American firm with a branch in Russia?

Some of you have followed this thread intently and I felt a need to tell you the story straight, as I have it. I'm sorry this is so long!! Thanks for your interest and support.

Mike