Soviet era marriage history and the I-129F

[392ihc 0]

Hello to all!

My name is Mike and I am new here. I have recently returned from Moscow after spending 30 days with a delightful lady with whom I have been corresponding for several months. I have asked her to marry me and she has accepted. I have already started the V1 application process with the assistance of the information on this web site (which is fantastic). I am completing what I can on the forms and then sending the rest to her to do as an attachment. The first one I sent, of course, is the I-129F. Now the question!!

She and her first husband were evacuated from Baku in Azerbijan during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Armenians were being persecuted and murdered by the majority Muslim population. They went to Moscow like thousands of others. Soviet law, at that time did not allow non-residents to buy homes or apartments. So, to circumvent the law, she and her husband divorced. She married a stranger in a "paper marriage" to gain residency by virtue of his residency. Then she and husband #1 bought a house in her name. Then she and husband #2 divorced after three months. She only saw him twice. Then she and husband #2 remarried and then they both had residency status. OK so far? I know, it is bizare by our standards.

Now, she tells me she does not remember the name of husband #2, the date of the marriage or the divorce and doesn't want to list it on the form because she says it was "no real marriage!" After reading many posts on here I am telling her that the only thing that matters to our Immigration Service is honesty. They don't care how many times you were married or even why you married.....but a non-disclosure could delay the approval process.

So, I am asking for the help and advise of so many of you who have been down this road before me! Tell me what you think, please. I thank you in advance for any replies!

[Waitinggent 2]

I am certainly no expert, but I have decided to take no shortcuts to risk rejection and have gone with the total honesty route. If they catch you/her in a lie, you may never get her here and it may not bode well for you in the future if you should meet another foreign woman and want to marry. You will need her previous marriage licenses and divorce certificates. If she claims she does not remember his name, I assume this means that she does not have the marriage and divorce certificates that are necessary to apply for the visa or she could simply look and see his name. I would be a little worried about whether you have the whole story from this woman. How did she prove her residency in her remarriage without the marriage certificate from the fake marriage? How well and how long have you known her? Is this the only time you have met? Where is her first husband? Does she have 2 divorce certificates from him? This woman has already shown that she is willing to scam to get what she wants. She may be fine, but I would be careful and not rush into this if you do not know her very well yet. You are correct. The Immigration Service only cares about getting the legal situation, and it doesn't matter what is in her heart about the second marriage. She seems a little irrational to me. Maybe she is simply an irrational woman, or maybe she is hiding something. Either way, I'd be careful. If you have only met her 1 time, what is your hurry?

Hello to all!

My name is Mike and I am new here. I have recently returned from Moscow after spending 30 days with a delightful lady with whom I have been corresponding for several months. I have asked her to marry me and she has accepted. I have already started the V1 application process with the assistance of the information on this web site (which is fantastic). I am completing what I can on the forms and then sending the rest to her to do as an attachment. The first one I sent, of course, is the I-129F. Now the question!!

She and her first husband were evacuated from Baku in Azerbijan during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Armenians were being persecuted and murdered by the majority Muslim population. They went to Moscow like thousands of others. Soviet law, at that time did not allow non-residents to buy homes or apartments. So, to circumvent the law, she and her husband divorced. She married a stranger in a "paper marriage" to gain residency by virtue of his residency. Then she and husband #1 bought a house in her name. Then she and husband #2 divorced after three months. She only saw him twice. Then she and husband #2 remarried and then they both had residency status. OK so far? I know, it is bizare by our standards.

Now, she tells me she does not remember the name of husband #2, the date of the marriage or the divorce and doesn't want to list it on the form because she says it was "no real marriage!" After reading many posts on here I am telling her that the only thing that matters to our Immigration Service is honesty. They don't care how many times you were married or even why you married.....but a non-disclosure could delay the approval process.

So, I am asking for the help and advise of so many of you who have been down this road before me! Tell me what you think, please. I thank you in advance for any replies!

[baron555 934]

Do you mean the K-1 and not a V=1?

2. She does not do anything on the I-129F, you do.

3. Yes she would need to provide 2 divorce decrees (plus translation into English) and any documents showing her changing her surname; as many documents as she changed it.

[norrin 3]

Whether she "wanted" to be married or not to the first husband if she went to ZAGS (which you have to do to be legally married, to be able to buy that property as you say) she was still legally married, so she needs a divorce decree for both husbands. She will need these when she goes for the interview. Ok I know this is none of my business however, I find it rather stange that she doesn't remember the husband who allowed her to buy a house. I would remember that guy forever. Either way she needs divorce decrees from both of them. She doesn't want to list him on the forms because it wasn't a "real marriage" sorry this is Russia, if Zags says its real...its real.

[Old Dominion 26]

People's lives DO get confused along the way. But the two divorce decrees are necessary before they will approve your petition. In some instances USCIS has accepted sworn affidavits from close family/friends attesting to a divorce, but that is usually from countries where tribal customs are followed in marriage and divorce, i.e., no public records.

I wonder how much she has shared with you about her life story? It must have been traumatic for quite awhile.

[392ihc 0]

Clarification/Update

Yes, I meant K-1

After her re-marriage to husband #1, they remained married until he died five years ago.

I know that the I-129F is for me to complete but she must provide me with some of the information such as dates marriages ended and names of spouses. This form does not ask for dates of marriages--only dates the marriage ended. I know that divorce documents are required to be attached but marriage documents? She found her divorce documents, so she has the name and date of the divorce, at least. I know ZAGS will have these records and if necessary she will have to ask for official copies of these. Looking at our immigration for 129F, it only asks for date the marriage ended...........?????

On a personal level now.......I know this appears radical to our American mindset as a "scam". But one must also remember that under communism the only way to accomplish many things was to scam the government. And everyone in the Soviet Union in those days participated in many scams--unless they were high in the party. Scamming the Soviet government in those days meant survival. I don't think it belongs under the heading of scam as we know it today. Frankly, I have no negative judgement about scamming the Soviet system.....my difficulty is using the institution of marriage to accomplish this. But we have discussed this and I have expressed myself to her honestly. I could never have encouraged my wife to divorce me and marry another man....but I was not living under her conditions either.

[baron555 934]

She found her divorce documents

Then you are good to go. These documents will list the two names of the married couple that are divorcing. You don't need marriage documents only divorce documents.....and any name change documents.

Your case sounds very complicated. Make sure you have all the paperwork you need.

[Waitinggent 2]

I filed marriage certificates with my I-129f. I thought that they were required, as well as divorce certificates. Is your fiancee aware that she will need to get a police certificate from Baku for her interview?

I agree with you that the scam of the government should not be so concerning as the fact that it involved a marriage scam. So she isn't above faking a marriage for personal gain. I know you didn't make your post to get relationship advice, and you certainly don't need to answer here, as you are free to share only what you wish, but I would want to know whether she bribed the guy to marry her or whether she pretended to love him to achieve this fake marriage - the 2nd being inexcusable from my point of view. Renting is not such a terrible thing What she did was quite an extreme response to a situation that was not very extreme. As one who has spent much time in the former Soviet Union, I think it is generally a mistake to use their different culture to excuse or explain behavior that you would normally question. Very few Soviet women, in a good marriage, would have divorced their husbands and enter into a fake marriage for the reason that she did. This is not normal Soviet behavior. If the advice you are getting from us posters is unwanted, just say so and it will stop, and we will gladly stick to helping you through the process.

Good Luck.

Clarification/Update

Yes, I meant K-1

After her re-marriage to husband #1, they remained married until he died five years ago.

I know that the I-129F is for me to complete but she must provide me with some of the information such as dates marriages ended and names of spouses. This form does not ask for dates of marriages--only dates the marriage ended. I know that divorce documents are required to be attached but marriage documents? She found her divorce documents, so she has the name and date of the divorce, at least. I know ZAGS will have these records and if necessary she will have to ask for official copies of these. Looking at our immigration for 129F, it only asks for date the marriage ended...........?????

On a personal level now.......I know this appears radical to our American mindset as a "scam". But one must also remember that under communism the only way to accomplish many things was to scam the government. And everyone in the Soviet Union in those days participated in many scams--unless they were high in the party. Scamming the Soviet government in those days meant survival. I don't think it belongs under the heading of scam as we know it today. Frankly, I have no negative judgement about scamming the Soviet system.....my difficulty is using the institution of marriage to accomplish this. But we have discussed this and I have expressed myself to her honestly. I could never have encouraged my wife to divorce me and marry another man....but I was not living under her conditions either.

[visaveteran 1]

Lots of people from Azerbaijan want to come to Russia for a better life. It is not uncommon for them to pay Russian women to marry them for the benefits they will reap. Later the marriage is terminated. In a smaller way, some men from Azerbaijan will pay a Russian woman to live in her home to have a legal address which keeps them out of trouble. Clearly, many are cheats and slippery people.

So it does not surprise me that this original couple, who seem to be Armenians from Azerbaijan, would use the system to their advantage in setting up a life in Russia. It is something akin to the Gypsy lifestyle...whatever it takes to survive. These rules are quite different than for the average Russian...so I would not charaterize this as being about life in the Soviet Union. The Russians, it seems, don't like the Azerbaijan people and often express this dislike in the form of violence towards them, especially outside the large cities.

All in all, it's very unsavory and questionable behavior and is infamous within Russia. I'd be very careful getting involved. And the messy history and exploitative behavior around past marriages will make getting a visa an uphill battle. My internal alarm system is ringing loudly. I hope yours is too.

[Waitinggent 2]

I defer to you, as my extensive time in former Soviet countries does not include Azerbaizhan. My experience is generally with ethnic Russians/Ukrainians, including those also living in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, the Baltics, etc . . ..

Lots of people from Azerbaijan want to come to Russia for a better life. It is not uncommon for them to pay Russian women to marry them for the benefits they will reap. Later the marriage is terminated. In a smaller way, some men from Azerbaijan will pay a Russian woman to live in her home to have a legal address which keeps them out of trouble. Clearly, many are cheats and slippery people.

So it does not surprise me that this original couple, who seem to be Armenians from Azerbaijan, would use the system to their advantage in setting up a life in Russia. It is something akin to the Gypsy lifestyle...whatever it takes to survive. These rules are quite different than for the average Russian...so I would not charaterize this as being about life in the Soviet Union. The Russians, it seems, don't like the Azerbaijan people and often express this dislike in the form of violence towards them, especially outside the large cities.

All in all, it's very unsavory and questionable behavior and is infamous within Russia. I'd be very careful getting involved. And the messy history and exploitative behavior around past marriages will make getting a visa an uphill battle. My internal alarm system is ringing loudly. I hope yours is too.

[CountingDays 0]

Hi Mike,

my own parents HAD TO go through the very same thing (getting divorced and re-married) for the same reasons. Exactly like someone said-whatever it took to survive there at that time. Like Baron said-the best thing you can do here is make sure you provide all the documents according to the rules.

Good luck to you

Clarification/Update

Yes, I meant K-1

After her re-marriage to husband #1, they remained married until he died five years ago.

I know that the I-129F is for me to complete but she must provide me with some of the information such as dates marriages ended and names of spouses. This form does not ask for dates of marriages--only dates the marriage ended. I know that divorce documents are required to be attached but marriage documents? She found her divorce documents, so she has the name and date of the divorce, at least. I know ZAGS will have these records and if necessary she will have to ask for official copies of these. Looking at our immigration for 129F, it only asks for date the marriage ended...........?????

On a personal level now.......I know this appears radical to our American mindset as a "scam". But one must also remember that under communism the only way to accomplish many things was to scam the government. And everyone in the Soviet Union in those days participated in many scams--unless they were high in the party. Scamming the Soviet government in those days meant survival. I don't think it belongs under the heading of scam as we know it today. Frankly, I have no negative judgement about scamming the Soviet system.....my difficulty is using the institution of marriage to accomplish this. But we have discussed this and I have expressed myself to her honestly. I could never have encouraged my wife to divorce me and marry another man....but I was not living under her conditions either.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello to all!

My name is Mike and I am new here. I have recently returned from Moscow after spending 30 days with a delightful lady with whom I have been corresponding for several months. I have asked her to marry me and she has accepted. I have already started the V1 application process with the assistance of the information on this web site (which is fantastic). I am completing what I can on the forms and then sending the rest to her to do as an attachment. The first one I sent, of course, is the I-129F. Now the question!!

She and her first husband were evacuated from Baku in Azerbijan during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Armenians were being persecuted and murdered by the majority Muslim population. They went to Moscow like thousands of others. Soviet law, at that time did not allow non-residents to buy homes or apartments. So, to circumvent the law, she and her husband divorced. She married a stranger in a "paper marriage" to gain residency by virtue of his residency. Then she and husband #1 bought a house in her name. Then she and husband #2 divorced after three months. She only saw him twice. Then she and husband #2 remarried and then they both had residency status. OK so far? I know, it is bizare by our standards.

Now, she tells me she does not remember the name of husband #2, the date of the marriage or the divorce and doesn't want to list it on the form because she says it was "no real marriage!" After reading many posts on here I am telling her that the only thing that matters to our Immigration Service is honesty. They don't care how many times you were married or even why you married.....but a non-disclosure could delay the approval process.

So, I am asking for the help and advise of so many of you who have been down this road before me! Tell me what you think, please. I thank you in advance for any replies!

You are absolutely correct. Number of marriages doesn't count...lying does. Lie and be denied. Non-disclosure will result in a denial and up to lifetime ban on any other visas of any kind. Find the information. She will need a copy of the marraige certificates and the divorce certificates, translated. The divorce certificates (any and all) have to be submitted with the petition. The marriage certificates need to be submitted at the interview.

This scenario does not seem strange in the marriage fraud business. It is not even unusual and is something the consulates look for, not so much in Russia as in other countries, but it is not a new trick. Divorce husband 1, marry husband 2 for immigration benefits, live with husband 2 until benefits obtained (2 years in the case of the US) then divorce husband 2 and marry husband 1 again. Petition him to the US. Old trick.

Her past marriage history (of paper marriages) and her inclination to lie about is something you should consider. The consulate would deny her for lying about a previous marraige.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Clarification/Update

Yes, I meant K-1

After her re-marriage to husband #1, they remained married until he died five years ago.

I know that the I-129F is for me to complete but she must provide me with some of the information such as dates marriages ended and names of spouses. This form does not ask for dates of marriages--only dates the marriage ended. I know that divorce documents are required to be attached but marriage documents? She found her divorce documents, so she has the name and date of the divorce, at least. I know ZAGS will have these records and if necessary she will have to ask for official copies of these. Looking at our immigration for 129F, it only asks for date the marriage ended...........?????

On a personal level now.......I know this appears radical to our American mindset as a "scam". But one must also remember that under communism the only way to accomplish many things was to scam the government. And everyone in the Soviet Union in those days participated in many scams--unless they were high in the party. Scamming the Soviet government in those days meant survival. I don't think it belongs under the heading of scam as we know it today. Frankly, I have no negative judgement about scamming the Soviet system.....my difficulty is using the institution of marriage to accomplish this. But we have discussed this and I have expressed myself to her honestly. I could never have encouraged my wife to divorce me and marry another man....but I was not living under her conditions either.

I am fully aware of what people did under communism, and even to some degree today. Very aware. But here is a problem that is ringing bells for me. My wife has, at times done what was necessary to survive, before, during and after perestroika and I make no judgements on that. NONE. Not for her, not for anyone else. I know way too many good, hard working people even today, who do things which are "illegal" as they would never survive any other way, and I am not taking about serious crimes here, but things an American would never consider a crime in any case. A very large percentage of Ukrainians eek out a living with some side jobs that are unreported and earn some extra cash under the table. And I should judge a guy that works hard from dawn until midnight to provide a 2 room flat for his family?

That said...in your case there is NO REASON to lie, so why would she suggest this? You also have to understand this person is fully capable of immigration fraud and has done it before, essentially that is waht she did, though it was "internal immigration" of a sorts. Whatever, she WILL do it. Filke the petition f you have everything you need (if she changed her name along the way, you need to include the marraige certificates with the petition...for got about that) The petition is just a petition. But be very sure before you enter into this visa and marriage business. You are a big boy, I trust your judgement and you have the information you need.

[slim 1,530]

I don't think this is a case of lying or not lying or whatever, but if she has the documents, why not list them?

A couple other questions if she really doesn't want to list them -

1. When did the "divorce" happen?

2. When did the "marriage" happen?

3. When did the second "divorce" happen?

4 When did the second "marriage" happen?

5. How old is she and how old are you?

6. You were corresponding for several months, how? (And how did you initially meet? Which website?)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Hello to all!

My name is Mike and I am new here. I have recently returned from Moscow after spending 30 days with a delightful lady with whom I have been corresponding for several months. I have asked her to marry me and she has accepted. I have already started the V1 application process with the assistance of the information on this web site (which is fantastic). I am completing what I can on the forms and then sending the rest to her to do as an attachment. The first one I sent, of course, is the I-129F. Now the question!!

She and her first husband were evacuated from Baku in Azerbijan during the breakup of the Soviet Union. Hundreds of Armenians were being persecuted and murdered by the majority Muslim population. They went to Moscow like thousands of others. Soviet law, at that time did not allow non-residents to buy homes or apartments. So, to circumvent the law, she and her husband divorced. She married a stranger in a "paper marriage" to gain residency by virtue of his residency. Then she and husband #1 bought a house in her name. Then she and husband #2 divorced after three months. She only saw him twice. Then she and husband #2 remarried and then they both had residency status. OK so far? I know, it is bizare by our standards.

Now, she tells me she does not remember the name of husband #2, the date of the marriage or the divorce and doesn't want to list it on the form because she says it was "no real marriage!" After reading many posts on here I am telling her that the only thing that matters to our Immigration Service is honesty. They don't care how many times you were married or even why you married.....but a non-disclosure could delay the approval process.

So, I am asking for the help and advise of so many of you who have been down this road before me! Tell me what you think, please. I thank you in advance for any replies!

I would suggest you send NOTHING to her. You should be the only one to touch a form except for signatures. The G-325a can be sent without her signature, we can tell you how. She never needs to see the I-129f or sign it and you can use the VJ finacee letter of intent, add her name and address, etc., email it to her and have her sign it and send it to you. My wife never touched a form in this entire process except to sign where needed, from petition to AOS.

Also a detailed timeline of the events, as Slim suggests, would be very helpful. What year and month was she "evacuated from" Baku? What year and month was she married, first time, second time, etc. To be honest, after re-reading this story it does not seem right. There are some glaring inconsistencies, but a timeline would help. For one thing, depending on the timing...how would a person unauthorized to live in Moscow without marrying another man from Moscow, buy a home "in her name"? Moscow is very expensive. So this evacuee had enough money to buy a home (granted they were cheaper then but it is still Moscow and Moscow was always at the top end) OR her new husband had enough money and bought it and put it in her name? And he was Russian? A Russian marries and Armenian and within 3 months buys her a home in her name only? I am not saying any of this is impossible, without a detailed timeline at least, but highly suspicious and very much against local tradition and culture.