Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war

[AngelK96 0]

ok thanks . just wanted clarification.

But still want to remind everyone we are still fighting for our land and will continue to do so.

I am sure if we had the means to do what is necessary back in the day we would be doing the same as the palestinians. As of this second we have brothers and sister who are going to war to protect "OUR" country even though we have occupation on our own land.

The difference is that the battle you are talking about it being fought in the courts. Both the Tribal Courts and the US Courts. And the fight (to my understanding of it) is a question of where is the balance. The USA (and Canada) as a country has been formed and has developed. What was done in that development sometimes was wrong. However, now it is done. How is balance to be restored without throwing out the good with the bad. This is a similar question in Israel. Where is the balance between the two people?

Joel

Tribal courts are laws that in involve tribal disputes what happens on tribal lands. Our fights are iin the US Gov't Courts. Any thing that is a federal issue automatically goes to federal court et..US Courts. Each tribe or reservation is SOVEREIGN

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

Tribal courts are laws that in involve tribal disputes what happens on tribal lands. Our fights are iin the US Gov't Courts. Any thing that is a federal issue automatically goes to federal court et..US Courts. Each tribe or reservation is SOVEREIGN

That is the way it is suppose to happen. Recently in Arizona though the US has come to the Tribal Courts. The idea is to start treating them AS sovereign. However, the reason I know about this is due to the controversy over the procedure. The way it looks is that the US is willing to go to the tribes when the tribe has money. Normally that is through gambling or resource development. For tribes that don't have cash the US waits for them to come.

Anyways...you and I seem to have gotten off topic. Send me a PM and I will see if i can find you some articles on it. I won't be able to answer for a couple of weeks though. I leave for Ukraine tomorrow to pick up my wife and, hopefully, bring her back!

[AngelK96 0]

Tribal courts are laws that in involve tribal disputes what happens on tribal lands. Our fights are iin the US Gov't Courts. Any thing that is a federal issue automatically goes to federal court et..US Courts. Each tribe or reservation is SOVEREIGN

That is the way it is suppose to happen. Recently in Arizona though the US has come to the Tribal Courts. The idea is to start treating them AS sovereign. However, the reason I know about this is due to the controversy over the procedure. The way it looks is that the US is willing to go to the tribes when the tribe has money. Normally that is through gambling or resource development. For tribes that don't have cash the US waits for them to come.

Anyways...you and I seem to have gotten off topic. Send me a PM and I will see if i can find you some articles on it. I won't be able to answer for a couple of weeks though. I leave for Ukraine tomorrow to pick up my wife and, hopefully, bring her back!

hahaha true we did go off topic.. well since so many tribes now have casinos it will be interesting in the future to see what money buys.. hell maybe we'll get our Black Hills Back which as one of the largest gold mines in the USA.. Safe Journey!

[Heracles 417]

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

Didn't that land belong to Jewish people for thousands of years?

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

Didn't that land belong to Jewish people for thousands of years?

It depends. If you are using the Christian Bible (or the Torah) as a historical source then, yes. But they still pushed people out at that time too. According to the religious text it was land gifted to the 'Chosen' by God. Other tribes lived there at the time. However, non religious documents do show that the area has been contested since humans could write down events. No one group has ever REALLY 'controlled' the area.

Joel

[ual777 0]

I wish people would stop talking about repaying the indians and the "theft of their land". Unless someone here is appx. 200 years old, I don't think you made the walk on the trail of tears.

Some native americans recieve 90K a YEAR from casinos, doing NOTHING. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Yes it was terrible what happened, I'm not denying that, but it happened HUNDREDS of years ago. Its time to let that stuff go and get with the program.

[mawilson 2,133]

the Arabs do have the legitimate grip for their land being yanked to create Israel.

It wasn't "yanked" - it was won in battle (by Britain) and given to the UN which partitioned

it into Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs didn't agree with UN Resolution 181 and decided

to attack Israel instead. Israel whipped the Arabs' collective butts and has been whipping

their butts ever since. By the right of conquest the land belongs to Israel. Period.

[mawilson 2,133]

I have toured all though Israel. There is NOTHING but rock there. I live in Phoenix...I KNOW rock and it is where the fighting is.

Indeed, so have I -- both Israel and Palestine. There is a stark contrast between Israeli

settlements and surrounding Palestinian villages. Israel has had amazing success at

turning some of the most barren, rocky terrain into highly productive areas.

[mawilson 2,133]

ok thanks . just wanted clarification.

But still want to remind everyone we are still fighting for our land and will continue to do so.

I am sure if we had the means to do what is necessary back in the day we would be doing the same as the palestinians. As of this second we have brothers and sister who are going to war to protect "OUR" country even though we have occupation on our own land.

Who is 'we' and what land are 'we' fighting for, exactly?

Your country seems to be Jordan -- do you mean to say that Jordan hopes someday

to reoccupy the West Bank?

Where was the outrage and world condemnation when Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950?

May 8, 1950

From the first, ambitious King Abdullah of Jordan had no intention of giving up the large chunk of eastern Palestine which his Arab Legion seized during the war with Israel. A few days after his cease-fire agreement with Israel in 1949, the King set up a civil administration for all of Palestine under his control, an area which includes the Old City of Jerusalem. Later he admitted Palestinian Arabs to his cabinet, then allowed the people of eastern Palestine to vote in Jordan's elections last April 11. Last week the King prodded his Parliament into formally unifying the conquered territory with the rest of Jordan.

The annexation, which more than doubled Jordan's population, was no great surprise to anyone. Nonetheless, the usual international amenities had to be observed and the international protests placed upon the record.

The British government, which subsidizes Abdullah's army, promptly gave public blessing to the annexation. The blessing was qualified only by a dutiful reminder that control of Jerusalem was supposed to be a matter for final decision by the United Nations. At the same time Britain announced her decision to grant full recognition to Israel, whose government had taken a live & let live attitude toward Abdullah.

From Jordan's fellow members of the Arab League came pained outcries. "Human patience has a limit, even an Arab's patience," glowered League Secretary General Abdul Rahman Azzam Pasha. Non-Jordan Arabs were angry at Abdullah, whose designs on eastern Palestine had long been a sore point with them. They were even angrier at Britain both for its support of Jordan and its recognition of Israel. And they strongly suspected the U.S. of winking at British maneuvers in the Middle East. Outraged as most Arab League nations were, however, there was little they could do but bark indignantly in the direction of Abdullah. With British backing, Jordan seemed secure in its new domain.

[I'm Gone 60]

It wasn't "yanked" - it was won in battle (by Britain) and given to the UN which partitioned

it into Jewish and Arab states.

Yeah and how much of that had to do with the Jewish terrorists like the Stern Gang and U.S. government pressure in having Britain spliting up the land. How much say did the Arabs have in the partition.

Jews killed the U.N. guy that was somewhat favorable to the Arabs.

Folke Bernadotte was assassinated on 17 September 1948 by members of the Lehi group, sometimes known as the Stern Gang. The assassination was approved by the three-man Lehi 'center': Yitzhak Shamir, Natan Yellin-Mor and Yisrael Eldad, and planned by the Lehi operations chief in Jerusalem, Yehoshua Zetler.

[AngelK96 0]

I wish people would stop talking about repaying the indians and the "theft of their land". Unless someone here is appx. 200 years old, I don't think you made the walk on the trail of tears.

Some native americans recieve 90K a YEAR from casinos, doing NOTHING. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Yes it was terrible what happened, I'm not denying that, but it happened HUNDREDS of years ago. Its time to let that stuff go and get with the program.

I really dont give a damn about your opinion, we are still fighting in the courts and your reply just confims how racism still exist in the usa. You will be surprised how money in this society can change anyone opinion

it's alll about how much money you cnontribute no matter where it comes from. Is that armerican society???

you can buy anything if you have enough money... money rules this world and you better remember that. as for native americans we found what your weak point it.l.. if you want to go one on one with me you better have a lot of guns like custers as i remember we stuck knives in his ears so he can hear better in the next life....

[Risto 0]

The air force learned that lesson in Beirut as fighter-jets sought to destroy Hizbullah headquarters. Officials acknowledged that 23 tons of munitions failed to penetrate the thick walls of the underground command headquarters constructed by Iran.

It’s time for a new nuclear bunker-buster weapon.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I have toured all though Israel. There is NOTHING but rock there. I live in Phoenix...I KNOW rock and it is where the fighting is.

Despite your claims, it's obvious that you haven't seen much of either Israel OR Palestine.

Apart from the Negev and Judean deserts and a lot of the Dead Sea area, both countries are intensively farmed. If you drive from Tel Aviv through Lod to Ramallah, all you will see are farms. I find the look of the land very similar to the farms and ranches of central and south Texas (only with mountains.)

Here is a pic looking out from my husband's family's farm in the northern West Bank:

Nothing but rock ?

And actually before modern Israel the Palestinians were like the red headed step children of the Middle East. If there was someone to abuse they were it. Never mind the infighting amongst themselves. The only reason that the Arab states support Palestinian now is that it provides them with a good excuse to not deal with either group. If Israel were not their do you think it would be all brotherhood and love? No way! They would make sure the Palestinians stayed on their rock and never advanced to any other level politically, economically, or militarily.

Again, where do you get this absurd idea ????? Source, please.

Now I do have a separate question. When I was in Israel the seemed to be a rift between Israeli Arabs (Muslims who were Arab and did not proclaim to be Palestinian) and the Palestinians. Why is that? This question IS out of ignorance on my part.

I am not sure what you are referring to. The Muslim Arabs in Israel call themselves Palestinians. (It is the Israeli government which prefers the term "Arab Israelis.") Perhaps you are speaking of the Druze living in Israel ? They are indeed Arabs, but not Muslim. Palestinians often DO see the Druze as collaborators with the occupation, as they serve in the Israeli Army and take part in Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people.

Is the American Dream not making something out of nothing? The reality of that is that first the original people of the land had to be displaced before others could identify with this (originally Europeans)? If the original people are cleared out all of a sudden there is truly nothing and people can start to claim and build. The Native Americans were moved out in the US. The Palestinians were moved out in the case of Israel.

What ???? The Native Americans were moved out of the U.S. ????????? Where were they moved to ???? If you are referring to the forced displacement of Native Americans onto "reservations"..... well these are all inside the U.S. And what was done to the Native Americans is a very shameful part of U.S. history, much like the institution of slavery. It's beyond belief that anyone would try to justify such acts today -- quite frankly, it seems to be some kind of white supremacist idea of "progress."

Over the last 80 years, many Palestinians have indeed been driven from their homes and land in what would become the modern state of Israel, and in what became Israel's illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. About 700,000 Palestinians were driven out of Israel "proper." Many of these families still live in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and other Arab states. Israel refuses to allow them to return to their property, or to compensate them for their losses, in complete violation of international law and the Geneva Convention. Meanwhile, Israel imports Jewish individuals and families from all over the world and subsidizes them to squat in the homes and farms and cities stolen from the Palestinians. This is the festering wound at the root of the conflict.

So, the Palestinians and Jordan and Syria and Iran would welcome peacful relations with Israel? All calls for driving Israel into the sea would cease?

Errr.... Jordan has already signed a peace treaty with Israel.

And Saudi Arabia initiated a peace proposal in 2002 that recognizes Israel's right to sovereignty and secures its borders, based on the 1967 armistice lines. It was Israel that rejected it.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Perhaps I should have said "Hezbollah" instead of "Jordan"..... but in effect they are essentially the same thing, since the legitimate government of Jordan seems powerless to control Hezbollah.

Huh ????????? Hezbollah is in LEBANON, not JORDAN. Jordan is an ENTIRELY separate country with NO Hezbollah. Please see a map.

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

Didn't that land belong to Jewish people for thousands of years?

Historical evidence does not substantiate this claim.

Who owned your land 2000 years ago ? Should you be forced to "give it back" to anyone and everyone who shows up and claims to be descended from the original owner ?

Palestinians lost their property within the living memory of the past 80 years, and it has all been well documented. Many Palestinians have the actual deeds, surveys and even the house keys to their former homes.

Any court of law worth its salt could easily decide this one. Except, of course, a kangaroo court.

Edited July 22, 2006 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

the Arabs do have the legitimate grip for their land being yanked to create Israel.

It wasn't "yanked" - it was won in battle (by Britain) and given to the UN which partitioned

it into Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs didn't agree with UN Resolution 181 and decided

to attack Israel instead. Israel whipped the Arabs' collective butts and has been whipping

their butts ever since. By the right of conquest the land belongs to Israel. Period.

Heehee.

There is no "right of conquest" to annex territory through war, at least under international law or the Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory. Or is there one standard for Israel, and another for the rest of the world ? Or do we only observe international law when it is favorable to the Zionist plan, and disregard it when it is not ? (That's a rhetorical question, as the answer is obvious.)

By the way, how many UN resolutions is Israel in violation of ? Seems the only one Israel sort of likes is the one that established the modern state of Israel in the first place. But the "gift horse" wasn't quite as generous as they wanted. The Arabs weren't the only ones to reject the plan -- Jewish terror groups such as Menachem Begin's Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi (Stern Group) rejected it outright, as they wanted ALL of Palestine for the Jewish State.

Many countries disputed the right of the UN to partition a land against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants. And, interestingly, the U.K. was one of the countries which abstained from the vote.

Anyway, the State of Israel immediately violated that original resolution, as they continued to drive out the native population, then illegally occupied Arab territory under the pretext of a pre-emptive war, and from then until now continue to transfer their own civilian population into the occupied areas. All are violations of UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention.

It's a clear pattern: Israel aggresses against its neighbors, and when its victims retaliate, Israel says "Seeee ??? They're terrorists who hate us because of our religion !!!"

And you keep neglecting to recognize that the Geneva Convention gives occupied peoples the RIGHT to fight their oppressors. This means their soldiers and settlers are fair targets as long as Israel keeps occupying others' lands.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

There is a stark contrast between Israeli settlements and surrounding Palestinian villages. Israel has had amazing success at turning some of the most barren, rocky terrain into highly productive areas.

More ridiculous propaganda, right along the lines of "Israel made the desert bloom." (But quite appropriate for your new avatar !)

Let us review the facts:

This land has been blooming and producing food for centuries, thanks to the ingenuity and experience of Arab farmers who knew how to coax many types of crops from the dry land, despite the scarcity of water and usually without added irrigation. (Irrigation techniques are used in Gaza and in the Jordan Valley, but agriculture is rain-fed in the highlands of the West Bank.) Palestinian olive groves are hundreds of years old, established long before the Zionists arrived on the scene.

Palestinians use irrigation on approximately 11 % of their cultivated lands. In contrast, Israel irrigates more than 50 % of its cultivated land, pumping huge amounts of water from the already scanty resources in the area so that they might grow non-dryland, water-thirsty crops like watermelon and corn. Not to mention what they take to fill their swimming pools and sprinkle their imported grass lawns.

Even back in 1999, the situation was already critical:

Palestinians are being forced into the black market to purchase water, consuming up to 20 percent of their income on this item. The Philadelphia Inquirer (26 July 1999) describes Palestinians paying $4 per cubic meter (including delivery costs) for water costing Israelis $0.50-$1.00 per cubic meter. The same newspaper reports Israeli settlers selling water—taken from Palestinian sources—to desperate Palestinians at a 40 percent profit.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/19990818ib.html

The attempt to control water resources is one of the unspoken directives behind Israel's desire to occupy the West Bank and Shebaa Farms. There are also substantial water resources just across the Lebanese border, which Israel would very much like to control for its own use.

Israel takes more than 80 percent of Palestinian water from the West Bank aquifers, accounting for 25 percent of Israel’s water needs. As a result of Israeli policies, Palestinians currently are utilizing 246 mcm annually to supply three million Palestinians in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and Gaza for their domestic, industrial, and agricultural needs. By comparison, Israel’s population, comprised of fewer than six million persons, is consuming 1,959 mcm annually. Thus, on an annual, per capita basis, Israelis consume 340 cubic meters of water, compared to 82 cubic meters consumed by Palestinians—more than four times as much. In addition, the approximately 380,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and some 5,000-7,000 settlers in Gaza annually consume 65 and 10 mcm, respectively.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/19990818ib.html