Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

All I'm saying is that if both sides want peace there needs to be a buffer zone of some kind. You can't have 2 groups like this side-by-side. It will never work. And I think the zone in Korea has worked well for decades. Why couldn't it work here? And to add more fun...whoever goes into the zone on either side gets mowed down with machineguns and landminds!

Joel

OK. But have you looked at a map yet ?

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

I'm looking at it now...but I can't find the scale.

If it is a distance issue then split the difference. Half and half. Again...like Korea.

Edited July 22, 2006 by Joel Halfwassen

[AngelK96 0]

This is just my opinion, but I had a grandfather is WWII and was a waist gunner and dropped countless bombs over germany. my other grandfather was code talker both were native americans I have also had Uncles in the Korea war and uncles in the Vietnam war. We can bomb the heck out of the countries we fight but in the end it's always comes down to hand to hand combat. Exception is dropping the atomic bombs over Hiroshima and nagasaki which ended the war with Japan. We are in Afghanistan and Iraq which first started out with massive bombing campaigns in the end we end up with ground troops in both countries. Are we winning the war in those countries? What has it accomplished? Every day american soldiers are dying from car bombs or other unique ways these people are thinking up. To me..these places are just training grounds to see what is effective and what is not. We may have captured Saddam and killed al zarqawi, but nothing else has changed. Israeli has done the bombings in Lebanon now it comes down to ground troops massing at the border of Lebanon and Israel. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[I'm Gone 60]

Well, whichever, there should be a zone of noncontrol there like in Korea.

I say we stay the hell out of it. We are bitching that Arabs are supplied by Syria and Iran, but where does Israel get their weapon or the money to buy them. I really have no use for either side, but the Arabs do have the legitimate grip for their land being yanked to create Israel.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Question:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel disarmed, what would happen?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Question:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel disarmed, what would happen?

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Question:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel disarmed, what would happen?

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

So, the Palestinians and Jordan and Syria and Iran would welcome peacful relations with Israel? All calls for driving Israel into the sea would cease?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Question:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel disarmed, what would happen?

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

So, the Palestinians and Jordan and Syria and Iran would welcome peacful relations with Israel? All calls for driving Israel into the sea would cease?

Errr.... Jordan has already signed a peace treaty with Israel.

And Saudi Arabia initiated a peace proposal in 2002 that recognizes Israel's right to sovereignty and secures its borders, based on the 1967 armistice lines. It was Israel that rejected it.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

Well, whichever, there should be a zone of noncontrol there like in Korea.

I say we stay the hell out of it. We are bitching that Arabs are supplied by Syria and Iran, but where does Israel get their weapon or the money to buy them. I really have no use for either side, but the Arabs do have the legitimate grip for their land being yanked to create Israel.

That is a good argument.

It has been my opinion that modern Israel was created by Europe to have a convenient solution to their "Jew problem". The anti-Semitism has in Europe (minus UK in my opinion) almost always been going full blast. To move the Jews to a different part of the world and not kill them off must have seemed brilliant to the leaders who put it forward after the slaughter in WWII. And why not the area occupied by Palestinians? At that time who in that part of the world would really mind. None of the other Arab groups liked the Palestinians. That is why they were regulated to land that had no value other then a handful of holy sites and the rocks. So from Europe’s perspectives the land is worthless, the people there are not well liked, and we can remove the Jews! How much better could this get for Europe?

Now…the American perspective in my opinion…Here you have a group of people who throughout history have been used and abused by their host families. They are thrown into hostile territory with nothing but their clothes and a ‘Good luck you guys!’ from Europe. They turn this land of rock (and it IS just one big rock) into one of the most prosperous regions in the Middle East. No oil, no nothing. Just hard work and ingenuity. Who in America could not support that? Is that not the American dream (including the displacement of a native people)? And it is no wonder that Israeli lobby in the US (where Jews have always been more accepted in comparison to Europe) wouldn’t jump on that idea and sell it to Congress?

Joel

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well, whichever, there should be a zone of noncontrol there like in Korea.

I say we stay the hell out of it. We are bitching that Arabs are supplied by Syria and Iran, but where does Israel get their weapon or the money to buy them. I really have no use for either side, but the Arabs do have the legitimate grip for their land being yanked to create Israel.

That is a good argument.

It has been my opinion that modern Israel was created by Europe to have a convenient solution to their "Jew problem". The anti-Semitism has in Europe (minus UK in my opinion) almost always been going full blast. To move the Jews to a different part of the world and not kill them off must have seemed brilliant to the leaders who put it forward after the slaughter in WWII. And why not the area occupied by Palestinians? At that time who in that part of the world would really mind. None of the other Arab groups liked the Palestinians. That is why they were regulated to land that had no value other then a handful of holy sites and the rocks. So from Europe’s perspectives the land is worthless, the people there are not well liked, and we can remove the Jews! How much better could this get for Europe?

Now…the American perspective in my opinion…Here you have a group of people who throughout history have been used and abused by their host families. They are thrown into hostile territory with nothing but their clothes and a ‘Good luck you guys!’ from Europe. They turn this land of rock (and it IS just one big rock) into one of the most prosperous regions in the Middle East. No oil, no nothing. Just hard work and ingenuity. Who in America could not support that? Is that not the American dream (including the displacement of a native people)? And it is no wonder that Israeli lobby in the US (where Jews have always been more accepted in comparison to Europe) wouldn’t jump on that idea and sell it to Congress?

Joel

Where in the world do you get the bizarre idea that "none of the Arab groups liked the Palestinians" ????? Or the entirely absurd notion that Palestine is just "one big rock" ????????????????????????

Please.... I beg you to educate yourself with some facts before you post again on this subject, or I will be forced to humiliate you mercilessly.

[AngelK96 0]

Is that not the American dream (including the displacement of a native people)? And it is no wonder that Israeli lobby in the US (where Jews have always been more accepted in comparison to Europe) wouldn’t jump on that idea and sell it to Congress?

Joel

What do you mean by this exactly?

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

I have toured all though Israel. There is NOTHING but rock there. I live in Phoenix...I KNOW rock and it is where the fighting is. And actually before modern Israel the Palestinians were like the red headed step children of the Middle East. If there was someone to abuse they were it. Never mind the infighting amongst themselves. The only reason that the Arab states support Palestinian now is that it provides them with a good excuse to not deal with either group. If Israel were not their do you think it would be all brotherhood and love? No way! They would make sure the Palestinians stayed on their rock and never advanced to any other level politically, economically, or militarily.

Now I do have a separate question. When I was in Israel the seemed to be a rift between Israeli Arabs (Muslims who were Arab and did not proclaim to be Palestinian) and the Palestinians. Why is that? This question IS out of ignorance on my part.

Joel

Is that not the American dream (including the displacement of a native people)? And it is no wonder that Israeli lobby in the US (where Jews have always been more accepted in comparison to Europe) wouldn’t jump on that idea and sell it to Congress?

Joel

What do you mean by this exactly?

Is the American Dream not making something out of nothing? The reality of that is that first the original people of the land had to be displaced before others could identify with this (originally Europeans)? If the original people are cleared out all of a sudden there is truly nothing and people can start to claim and build. The Native Americans were moved out in the US. The Palestinians were moved out in the case of Israel.

Joel

[AngelK96 0]

I have toured all though Israel. There is NOTHING but rock there. I live in Phoenix...I KNOW rock and it is where the fighting is. And actually before modern Israel the Palestinians were like the red headed step children of the Middle East. If there was someone to abuse they were it. Never mind the infighting amongst themselves. The only reason that the Arab states support Palestinian now is that it provides them with a good excuse to not deal with either group. If Israel were not their do you think it would be all brotherhood and love? No way! They would make sure the Palestinians stayed on their rock and never advanced to any other level politically, economically, or militarily.

Now I do have a separate question. When I was in Israel the seemed to be a rift between Israeli Arabs (Muslims who were Arab and did not proclaim to be Palestinian) and the Palestinians. Why is that? This question IS out of ignorance on my part.

Joel

Is that not the American dream (including the displacement of a native people)? And it is no wonder that Israeli lobby in the US (where Jews have always been more accepted in comparison to Europe) wouldn’t jump on that idea and sell it to Congress?

Joel

What do you mean by this exactly?

Is the American Dream not making something out of nothing? The reality of that is that first the original people of the land had to be displaced before others could identify with this (originally Europeans)? If the original people are cleared out all of a sudden there is truly nothing and people can start to claim and build. The Native Americans were moved out in the US. The Palestinians were moved out in the case of Israel.

Joel

ok thanks . just wanted clarification.

But still want to remind everyone we are still fighting for our land and will continue to do so.

I am sure if we had the means to do what is necessary back in the day we would be doing the same as the palestinians. As of this second we have brothers and sister who are going to war to protect "OUR" country even though we have occupation on our own land.

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

ok thanks . just wanted clarification.

But still want to remind everyone we are still fighting for our land and will continue to do so.

I am sure if we had the means to do what is necessary back in the day we would be doing the same as the palestinians. As of this second we have brothers and sister who are going to war to protect "OUR" country even though we have occupation on our own land.

The difference is that the battle you are talking about it being fought in the courts. Both the Tribal Courts and the US Courts. And the fight (to my understanding of it) is a question of where is the balance. The USA (and Canada) as a country has been formed and has developed. What was done in that development sometimes was wrong. However, now it is done. How is balance to be restored without throwing out the good with the bad. This is a similar question in Israel. Where is the balance between the two people?

Joel

[Scott & Lai 12]

Question:

If Hamas and Hezbollah disarmed, what would happen?

If Israel disarmed, what would happen?

Without Israel's continued aggression into and occupation of other people's land, there would be no Hamas or Hezbollah.

So, the Palestinians and Jordan and Syria and Iran would welcome peacful relations with Israel? All calls for driving Israel into the sea would cease?

Errr.... Jordan has already signed a peace treaty with Israel.

And Saudi Arabia initiated a peace proposal in 2002 that recognizes Israel's right to sovereignty and secures its borders, based on the 1967 armistice lines. It was Israel that rejected it.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Perhaps I should have said "Hezbollah" instead of "Jordan"..... but in effect they are essentially the same thing, since the legitimate government of Jordan seems powerless to control Hezbollah.