Immigration Reform

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Good people!

I have no doubt that eventually, not too far in the immediate future, some kind of immigration reform will take place, as the current status quo is not sustainable. Nobody knows what changes will be proposed, even less which ones will make it into the final bill, but I think we -- immigration being an issue somewhat close to us -- should be talking about it, preferably in a civilized manner, so that this thread doesn't have to be closed.

Whatever reform is going to happen, it will definitely not be a general amnesty for the millions of undocumented immigrants. More likely, there will be some requirements attached to this, such as:

1. Present in the US for a certain amount of years (5, perhaps even 10)
2. Having filed income tax returns for at least 3 years
3. Having not broken any laws

I understand there's a huge resentment among many people to "legalize" undocumented immigrants. I know the reasons for it, so they don't need to be repeated.

But as food of thought, especially for those of you who do not wish to legalize any "illegals," I'd like to show you an example, one of many, and you tell me what the person(s) in this case ought to be doing, or what we ought to be doing with them, in your very own opinion. The case here is not fictive, but real.

------------------------------

Imagine a 19-year-old girl, originally from Guatemala, who was brought to the US by her parents when she was only 18 months old -- a baby!

She grew up in Southern California, went through the entire school system, got her High School Diploma with honors and an excellent GPA. She speaks fluent English. Her parents, in an attempt to promote integration, did not teach her Spanish, so her knowledge of the language is marginal. She has never left the US, doesn't know anybody in Guatemala, has no family left there: a High School graduate with no income and no savings.

She would like to attend a college, but since she can't provide legal presence, she can't even apply.

-------------------------------

What should she do, what should We the People do with her?

- Put her in a plane to Guatemala and let her figure out how to survive?

- Find a way for her to legalize her, by acknowledging that she was brought here without consent?

Tell me your thoughts. Should immigration reform help * some * undocumented immigrants to become legalized, or not?

[sjr09 155]

Good people!

I have no doubt that eventually, not too far in the immediate future, some kind of immigration reform will take place, as the current status quo is not sustainable. Nobody knows what changes will be proposed, even less which ones will make it into the final bill, but I think we -- immigration being an issue somewhat close to us -- should be talking about it, preferably in a civilized manner, so that this thread doesn't have to be closed.

Whatever reform is going to happen, it will definitely not be a general amnesty for the millions of undocumented immigrants. More likely, there will be some requirements attached to this, such as:

1. Present in the US for a certain amount of years (5, perhaps even 10)
2. Having filed income tax returns for at least 3 years
3. Having not broken any laws

I understand there's a huge resentment among many people to "legalize" undocumented immigrants. I know the reasons for it, so they don't need to be repeated.

But as food of thought, especially for those of you who do not wish to legalize any "illegals," I'd like to show you an example, one of many, and you tell me what the person(s) in this case ought to be doing, or what we ought to be doing with them, in your very own opinion. The case here is not fictive, but real.

------------------------------

Imagine a 19-year-old girl, originally from Guatemala, who was brought to the US by her parents when she was only 18 months old -- a baby!

She grew up in Southern California, went through the entire school system, got her High School Diploma with honors and an excellent GPA. She speaks fluent English. Her parents, in an attempt to promote integration, did not teach her Spanish, so her knowledge of the language is marginal. She has never left the US, doesn't know anybody in Guatemala, has no family left there: a High School graduate with no income and no savings.

She would like to attend a college, but since she can't provide legal presence, she can't even apply.

-------------------------------

What should she do, what should We the People do with her? ( send her back to Guatemala with her parents) undocumented is what it is!

- Put her in a plane to Guatemala and let her figure out how to survive?

- Find a way for her to legalize her, by acknowledging that she was brought here without consent?

Tell me your thoughts. Should immigration reform help * some * undocumented immigrants to become legalized, or not?

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

Every one of them has broken laws immigration laws , so they are automatically excluded from staying , most have been here more than 3 years so there is a ten year ban. There are laws for dealing with people that are not in status. Why would we need new ones.

[justashooter 430]

fruit of the poisoned tree.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I'll give my personal philosophy on some of this stuff, since our actual opinions don't matter much to our representatives in Washington, except where those opinions can be directly expressed in the ballot box. Personally, I'd like to see a federal equivalent of a ballot measure, so that voters could have a direct say on important legislation.

1. Present in the US for a certain amount of years (5, perhaps even 10)
2. Having filed income tax returns for at least 3 years
3. Having not broken any laws

The points listed above are mutually exclusive. If they are in the country illegally then they have broken laws. If they filed a tax return, then they are also working illegally, which is also breaking the law. Anyone who hired and paid them has also broken the law. Any immigration reform should require a penalty for having broken these laws. Any serious crimes not related to their legal status should disqualify them from any path to obtaining legal status.

Also, I hope the word "undocumented immigrant" doesn't make it into any bill, measure, or federal statute. It's a euphemism. Someone who loses their green card is an undocumented immigrant. Someone who has no legal status in the US is an illegal immigrant. It's a crucially important distinction. Without it, I should be able to begin working today as an undocumented contractor, or an undocumented doctor, or an undocumented lawyer.

If I were writing this legislation then I'd make a provision for people who, through no fault of their own, are present illegally in the US. If the parents qualify to apply for legal status under any immigration reform act, and their children were brought here as minors, then the children would inherit the eligibility of their parents. The deciding factor would be the age of the child when they entered the US.

[TBoneTX 45,266]

It could be said that the children are the innocent victims of criminals. It could also be said that the sins of the parents are visited upon the children. It sounds heartless to say that the children should be sent back, but unless there's a "grandfather clause" of some kind, or a scheme such as JimVa suggests, what's the other option?

[Nanusia & Lukaszek 0]

First of all, each undocumented or "illegal" has broken laws. They entered illegally or overstayed and broke the law. Some pay taxes, some do not and further break the law. Some illegals also go to the emergency room every time they have a stuffy nose, cause they wont pay for a dr office visit, and eventually we fork over the cost of this.

We, the "legals", have been flipping the bill in numerous ways because they break the law. We suffer due to their actions. Is this fair? NO. Then why would it be in my interest to keep them, to legalize them and allow them access to eventually some more benefits like paid healthcare (on medicaid i imagine), or collecting social security one day, or heck any other benefit. I dont think that is fair. I dont think they should be rewarded for breaking the rules.

Imagine a 19-year-old girl, originally from Guatemala, who was brought to the US by her parents when she was only 18 months old -- a baby!

She grew up in Southern California, went through the entire school system, got her High School Diploma with honors and an excellent GPA. She speaks fluent English. Her parents, in an attempt to promote integration, did not teach her Spanish, so her knowledge of the language is marginal. She has never left the US, doesn't know anybody in Guatemala, has no family left there: a High School graduate with no income and no savings.

She would like to attend a college, but since she can't provide legal presence, she can't even apply.

-------------------------------

What should she do, what should We the People do with her?

The situation above is either very rare, or not likely. If her parents came here when she was a baby and were illegals, they most likely had low paying jobs, and didnt learn english enough that "not teaching her spanish" would be an option. Most Hispanics teach their kids the language, as its always better for 2 vs 1 to know... and to communicate with mom & pop. Her good grades would lead to think she's smart enough to research working at 16 like all other teens, and figure out at that time that she's illegal, and start planning what to do in the next 2 yrs as college would be approaching, and no real future with her status. If she didn't know this, then she didn't have an excellent GPA.

I don't feel any sympathy whatsoever with the above situation, or any other of an illegal. You break the rules, you face the consequences. I do not believe legalizing anyone is the course to go. Why reward bad behavior? Legalizing everyone now would only send the message that the US is "easy". I think it would encourage more illegal overstays or illegal entries with the notion "ahhh, one day they'll legalize me".

[Chamonix-Dallas 0]

In my opinion, it would be fair to think about USC first, I mean so many couples have to live apart, waiting for the immigration process to finally end .... wouldn't it be much better, before thinking about all the undocumented people , to reform the process in order to ease the legal immigration for USC spouses ?

[Minya's wife 24]

In my opinion, it would be fair to think about USC first, I mean so many couples have to live apart, waiting for the immigration process to finally end .... wouldn't it be much better, before thinking about all the undocumented people , to reform the process in order to ease the legal immigration for USC spouses ?

Not to derail the original subject of this thread, but 'ease legal immigration of USC spouses' in what way? Immigration of foreign spouses of US citizens is not difficult per se. IMO, the most difficult part (besides the wait-times) is meeting the financial requirements for sponsorship...and I'm not sure what the federal government could or should do to ease those. Those financial requirements attempt to ensure that the intending immigrant does not become a public charge. Legally 'easing' those requirements would mean that the government allow all spouses carte-blanche to emigrate just because they are spouses of a USC and not consider the fact that the sponsoring USC can barely afford themselves....much less another person. That is just not 'smart' policy as far as the federal government is concerned.

[Chamonix-Dallas 0]

In my opinion, it would be fair to think about USC first, I mean so many couples have to live apart, waiting for the immigration process to finally end .... wouldn't it be much better, before thinking about all the undocumented people , to reform the process in order to ease the legal immigration for USC spouses ?

Not to derail the original subject of this thread, but 'ease legal immigration of USC spouses' in what way? Immigration of foreign spouses of US citizens is not difficult per se. IMO, the most difficult part (besides the wait-times) is meeting the financial requirements for sponsorship...and I'm not sure what the federal government could or should do to ease those. Those financial requirements attempt to ensure that the intending immigrant does not become a public charge. Legally 'easing' those requirements would mean that the government allow all spouses carte-blanche to emigrate just because they are spouses of a USC and not consider the fact that the sponsoring USC can barely afford themselves....much less another person. That is just not 'smart' policy as far as the federal government is concerned.

Well, i'm not saying the government would have to let immigrant becoming a public charge..... I mean this process is a nightmare and is very stressful for most people !! The waiting time is way too long !! It took only an hour to get a visa for my husband to move to France with me. We just had to make an appointment at the consulate (in Houston !) and bring the required documents, then we had to wait about 45 minutes to get his passport back with the visa in it !!

Of course immigrants shouldn't become a public charge, and i believe they would be smart and responsable enough to find themselves a solution, such as get another job to make more money, or even move back with their family to their home country if no other way.

The way the affidavit of support is now, its only about the sponsor's incomes, and the co-sponsor if needed. I think its not fair, because most of time the immigrant is gonna work too, and make some money for the household. And i think people have the right to live together, even if they are poor !

And, since the original subject of this thread is about illegals, illegal aliens are a public charge. Is that fair ?

[sachinky 465]

The whole immigration system needs an overhaul. It's also important to think about the USC and their families before focusing on the illegal immigrants. If the process was more efficient and streamlined and waiting times were drastically reduced, then people would be less likely to do things illegally. At least, IMO. Or maybe those who are willing to break the law will do so under any circumstances.

I don't think there are any easy answers to this. But I don't think rewarding bad behavior, so to speak, is the answer.

You did the crime, now do the time.

[sachinky 465]

And you can call them "undocumented immigrants" all you want. Does NOT change the FACT, that without any legal status in the U.S., they ARE illegal immigrants. Jim made an important distinction.

Edited December 8, 2009 by sachinky

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

Some of you are saying they should have done it the legal way. Well, there isn't one. In Europe, for example, there are many upstanding people with a good job qualification and significant savings who would love to live in the US, open businesses, pay taxes, help the economy. But there's no way for them to immigrate because the whole system is family oriented.

Yet someone who marries a USC, is immediately in, even if he's a dummy or lazy bum. Sorry, but I think that system is as broken as it gets.

[Gemmie 142]

Some of you are saying they should have done it the legal way. Well, there isn't one. In Europe, for example, there are many upstanding people with a good job qualification and significant savings who would love to live in the US, open businesses, pay taxes, help the economy. But there's no way for them to immigrate because the whole system is family oriented.

Yet someone who marries a USC, is immediately in, even if he's a dummy or lazy bum. Sorry, but I think that system is as broken as it gets.

I kind of agree... I know law-abiding people that would love to move to the US and work, but simply can't because you practically need a phD or extreme manual skills to do so, and even then you better have something else going for you as well. I do think there needs to be something for the "regular" people that just want to get a job and are willing to pay US taxes.

Isn't that like most countries though, you get in through family or work?

Edited December 8, 2009 by Gemmie

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I support mass deportations. In the case of minors or adults who were children when they arrived, I would like a system where they must prove they were in their native land less then x number of years. (Maybe 5 years for instance). However even in this situation I would have them on a banned list from US citizenship. They can become LPRs but never citizens to minimize them petitioning relatives.

I would also increase fines to employers...like 200,000 USD for every illegal found...and i'd fine the illegal 20,000USD prior to deportation (take their assets if need be).

Edited December 8, 2009 by Sousuke