When marriage on VJ fails...

[msheesha 548]

sister Ellie, I agree. I feel terrible to know there are some aszwipes out there who actually lie their way through. Yeah, it does happen. But like you said, to then turn around and refer to us foreign spouses as discarded furniture is fcked up. and I am tired of hearing it over and over here.

So stop reading about it. Let other people express themselves without judging and criticizing them; they have as much right to post as anyone else, annoying or not.

It seems like most of the people who post about it are still in the beginning phase of the divorce and are an emotional wreck. When they post, they don't seem to be at the point where they are ready to look constructively at their choices; learn from it; and move on. It seems like as you've described you've been in an abusive relationship and you've worked in the field of domestic violence, you would know that looking at things honestly and being prepared and ready to learn and move on, is a process that rarely happens quickly; and doesn't happen at the same pace for everyone.

If people are upset because their relationship is ending, they're entitled to rant a little. Some continue to rant; blame the other person; and never look at their own behaviors - but that happens in life all the time regardless of immigration status.

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

My ex was from South America. After 7 years of marriage the marriage fell apart due to an immigration issue. As soon as his son immigrated from my belly to the real world my ex developed an intense fear of responsibility.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

My ex was from South America. After 7 years of marriage the marriage fell apart due to an immigration issue. As soon as his son immigrated from my belly to the real world my ex developed an intense fear of responsibility.

which is because he is an azzwipe, NOT because he is an immigrant.

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

So true. I think it was a responsibility issue that he would have had with a child in any country. Things were ok until about 4 months after the baby.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

So true. I think it was a responsibility issue that he would have had with a child in any country. Things were ok until about 4 months after the baby.

I am sorry to hear that, sister

[Minya's wife 25]

sister Ellie, I agree. I feel terrible to know there are some aszwipes out there who actually lie their way through. Yeah, it does happen. But like you said, to then turn around and refer to us foreign spouses as discarded furniture is fcked up. and I am tired of hearing it over and over here.

So stop reading about it. Let other people express themselves without judging and criticizing them; they have as much right to post as anyone else, annoying or not.

It seems like most of the people who post about it are still in the beginning phase of the divorce and are an emotional wreck. When they post, they don't seem to be at the point where they are ready to look constructively at their choices; learn from it; and move on. It seems like as you've described you've been in an abusive relationship and you've worked in the field of domestic violence, you would know that looking at things honestly and being prepared and ready to learn and move on, is a process that rarely happens quickly; and doesn't happen at the same pace for everyone.

If people are upset because their relationship is ending, they're entitled to rant a little. Some continue to rant; blame the other person; and never look at their own behaviors - but that happens in life all the time regardless of immigration status.

Taking immigration out of the equation, when a marriage/relationship ends there is a fair amount of emotional baggage that exists and both parties must work their way through it in their own ways. When the immigration issue does not exists, that emotional baggage is different...it could be financial issues, or simple incompatibility. What doesn't happen, in those non immigration related marriage break-ups is one spouse crying that they were duped from the onset....which is what we're seeing here all too often. The subject of this discussion is that the break-up itself is bad enough...why jump immediately to the conclusion that it was caused by the immigrating spouse's fraudulent intent?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

My point exactly P. I can understand being pissed at your soon-to-be-ex, but why on god's green earth is the first thing we hear VISA FRAUD?? #######, really.

[Welshcookie 17]

In some cultures it is a very bad thing for your marriage to fail... it brings shame on all the family, There has been reports of a person returning home after a failed marriage and that person is shunned by their family and friends, they can end up being treated worse than a prostitute and in some cultures punished for the failed marriage. So I can understand some peoples need to remain in the US after a very short failed marriage.

I think it is human nature for people to find something other than themselves to blame their failed marriage on and sadly Immigration benefits are an easy choice because other are happy to agree that the foreign spouse only got married for the "Greencard"...

Sad but true..

Tay

I like this post....sometimes it is worse to go back than stay, and we often see people say " just go home" .....immigration based marriage is not that easy, and if you bought that person over knowing all that you know about that country and yes I am talking about all of you that went through "high fraud" countries, you knew the risks and went ahead

There has been marriage/relationship breakdowns in UK/Candian/Irish people here, but really I don't recall fraud ever being a major point of contention

There have been people from the above that did fight to stay, and why not?

[SuperDuper! 230]

My ex was from South America. After 7 years of marriage the marriage fell apart due to an immigration issue. As soon as his son immigrated from my belly to the real world my ex developed an intense fear of responsibility.

which is because he is an azzwipe, NOT because he is an immigrant.

Isnt this just a bit of a judgmental statement? You really dont have enuff facts to judge this person.

[TBoneTX 45,957]

Out of many thought-provoking posts in this thread, I would like to build on this one:

[...]a failure of communication ... is often a huge factor in divorce.

To me, that says that when there is a failure of communication, it can become easy for people to misinterpret and build resentment against the other person. If the American has a niggling feeling at the back of their head that there is even a possibility of a fraudulent marriage, that feeling will only get worse as the marriage deteriorates. And when it finally does, it's easier for that person to confirm their own thoughts as a self-fulfilling prophecy, rather than accept that there were real problems in the marriage.

The communication has to start in the very beginning, when the two people first connect. Often (TOO often, I sadly acknowledge), the USC man may be looking for youthful arm-candy or a household slave, or there will be other superficial reasons. Often, too, the USC woman may be older, worn down from mistreatment in previous relationships, perhaps no longer "ideally attractive" as American culture has it, and is flattered by attention from a vibrant younger man from another culture. From the immigrant's side, the motivation may be financial opportunity, an overall dream to move to the great USA, a sincere desire (from the women, usually) to find a partner who will treat her decently, and many other separate or similar reasons.

Long-distance relationships (even between USCs within the U.S.) are difficult enough. Pile cultural differences, further geographical separation, and consequent lack of time together atop differing expectations, and building a genuinely solid relationship becomes challenging indeed unless both parties are self-aware, accurately perceptive of others, ready for true commitment, and are able and willing to communicate everything between each other -- fully, and from the very beginning. Further complications are (obviously) the stress of the immigration journey itself, and the reality that most of us (all of us?) get more advice on how to buy a car or a washing machine than we do on how to pick a mate!

My criteria -- presented here because they lead to a point below -- were: (1) Is this potential mate available to me -- situationally, emotionally, geographically? (2) People are a mixture of positive and negative qualities; can I accept her negative qualities, habits, and attitudes without compromising my ability to accept myself, and without compromising my own principles? And, (3) what is the reflection of myself that I get as a result of interacting with this person? Not "what does she think of me," but "when we're together, do I feel like a million bucks, or like a whipped cur?"

In my first actual phone conversation with the eventual (current) wife, we spoke candidly about our experiences, baggage, and expectations (both of a potential mate and of ourselves, regarding our obligations in a potential union). At the end of that 4-hour conversation (at a DOLLAR a minute and with her fighting her rusty English), she said, "T-B., whatever happens between us, please promise me one thing: Don't ever lie to me." With that, I knew that she was likely "the one." I did not let the ####### hellhole Guayaquil consulate keep us apart, and, for a year-plus now since her arrival, I have happily administered (and, less happily, submitted to) multiple "wedgies" every day, si man.

Regarding the "blame game" in deteriorating relationships ("how do I ####### her green card" or "let me accuse him under VAWA"), it is hard to avoid reacting emotionally during times of pain. Two crucial actions -- as tough as they are to do -- are to retain one's dignity, and to accept nothing and perform no action that compromises one's dignity or self-acceptance. Those are part of Criterion #2 above for picking a mate.

Many of the egregious examples stated by others are worth standing up and fighting against, whether by a vigorous divorce or abuse proceeding, a report to ICE, or the like. It is another matter entirely to respond from a position of selfishness, hurtfulness, or vindictiveness. Good things end, too, including marriages. It behooves all of us to determine the truth behind the ending and to behave in a manner consistent with dignity and principle. If one or both partners behaves in an undignified or unprincipled fashion, it speaks volumes about the insufficient or faulty communication that existed from the beginning or that was allowed to develop after marriage.

Behave and behoove, si man.

[Susita 175]

Marriage takes work, we are all marrying immigrants, that just means we have a different set of things to fight about. If you can't own up to that challenge, you shouldn't be getting married. It takes a lot more than love to maintain a marriage.

Yea, its work. But you know it isn't really all that much work either. When you actually do have your spouse as your priority, it does not seem like work to begin with. You are eager to do things for them.

I totally agree. My husband and I have tons of differences, but I never looked at dealing with them as 'work' and if I can speak for him, I doubt he did either. Most of our differences were laughable, and the ones that weren't we just accepted. The thing is, I knew 90% of these differences before we moved in together... so there was no surprise involved. I think that's how it's supposed to be.

The one thing I have never been able to understand is how 2 people can get married and not be able to speak the same language, at least at a basic level. That, for me, would have been a HUGE problem.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

Sometimes it is easier to blame it on the universe, than to admit to yourself that ya screwed up.

Maybe some USC's dont make good choices in their partners and feel foolish when the relationship doesn't work out.

More often or not, I think that the "used for a GC" line of thinking absolves them of any real responsibility for anything they have done that may or may not have contributed to the breakdown. It's always easier to have a "nothing to do with me guv" attitude when you want to sleep better at night.

It annoys the ####### outta me when I see thread after thread of..."how do I send them back?" or "I am not going to do AOS even though I married them" or "I'm going to withhold ROC until they behave" Whilst I understand no one wants to be on the hook financially for an ex, more often than not, I see a chorus of agreement with this line of thinking. It annoys me because......I gave up a lot for my husband, and it's not just as easy as going home. I have a job here, what if I cant get one there? If we ever divorced (and I would fight to the death before I threw my hands up on him) why should I go home? I have built a life here. I personally probably would go home, but it would be MY frickin choice after all I sacrificed.

Should I be labelled a GC seeker in those circumstances?

I'm sorry to all of those who have been the unwilling participants in visa fraud, I really am. But the culture of jumping to the wrong conclusion on this website drives me insane. As the immigrant, I find these assumptions downright insulting sometimes.

This is the exact reason why before marriage I had a long talk with my fiancee before we set the date of our wedding. I wanted to take away any fear that I will hold her immigration status over her head.

In summary, I told her: "even if you are the best actress in the world and you are using me for a Green Card, I will stick with you at least until you do not need me for immigration anymore (usually after AOS), so that the decision to go home or stay in the US resides only on your own hands."

Why do I want that, even if she is acting? Because she already sacrificed a lot to leave her life behind and come to the US to stay with me and give a future together a try. Her effort (and behavior so far) has already awarded her the choice of a GC if she really wants that.

The thought that I will not send her home involuntarily has made our relationship a lot better, because it has allowed her to forget about what she will do if there are problems and relax, while being more her true self. I have never understood why somebody (man or woman) would want to control a foreign spouse with the threat of deportation. That leaves much to be desired from the USC individual.

If my marriage does not last (God forbid), it will be my fault as much as her fault.

[clueless_in_usa 8]

A person form a foreign country moves here to be with there spouse the marriage breaks up shortly after that. The person has no job, friends or relatives here but decidedes to stay in this country instead of going back to there own country to be with there releatives, family, and friends.

In that situation I would 100% visa fraud, if the only reason you are moving here is because you love your spouse and its over then why stay unless that wasn't the only reason you came here?

I don't agree with this even a bit. Every case is a different reality. Let me explain myself with an example:

If I live in a pretty screwed up country and suddenly I find love that may help me live the better life I always wanted for my family (future) and I, I will certainly like the idea of leaving everything behind and make a real effort to build the best new life possible.

But then I come out here and everything is better than I expected, except that my spouse makes my life hell and uses the coveted GC as a bargaining chip ... what am I supposed to do?

I really want to stay in the US, for sure, because after a while it should pay off (if I work hard) and I will have that chance I wanted for a much better life. Therefore, I either:

1) Stay the course, knowing that the nightmare will end as soon as the government lets me stands on my own feet without having to depend on the USC (hence the claims of divorce from SOME of those who just got their permanent GC)

2) Leave the nightmare, but ask everybody how I can stay legally for the better life I want to bring upon myself, but without the influence of the person who is threatening to have me deported.

I see validity on both cases, although I agree that fraudsters do indeed take advantage of the system.

And regarding VAWA, I will do everything I can to avoid it, reason I already spoke to my fiancee about what I will do for her immigration status, even if she is only acting to get a GC. I figure that waiting until she is legal will cause less trouble in my life, than having a pending VAWA case over my head.

Much of this undesirable behavior could be avoided if we, USCs, stopped thinking that we can control our spouses and make them do anything we want because we are "giving them a GC." Such attitude is stupid!

[Beth wa Salim 0]

This is the exact reason why before marriage I had a long talk with my fiancee before we set the date of our wedding. I wanted to take away any fear that I will hold her immigration status over her head.

In summary, I told her: "even if you are the best actress in the world and you are using me for a Green Card, I will stick with you at least until you do not need me for immigration anymore (usually after AOS), so that the decision to go home or stay in the US resides only on your own hands."

Why do I want that, even if she is acting? Because she already sacrificed a lot to leave her life behind and come to the US to stay with me and give a future together a try. Her effort (and behavior so far) has already awarded her the choice of a GC if she really wants that.

The thought that I will not send her home involuntarily has made our relationship a lot better, because it has allowed her to forget about what she will do if there are problems and relax, while being more her true self. I have never understood why somebody (man or woman) would want to control a foreign spouse with the threat of deportation. That leaves much to be desired from the USC individual.

If my marriage does not last (God forbid), it will be my fault as much as her fault.

EXCELLENT example for others to follow! I think that so many of the USC are so "me, me, me" that they (we) sometimes forget that these foreigners ARE making huge sacrifices to come to the U.S., well-intentioned or not. My belief in giving people the benefit of the doubt probably makes me naive to the fact that many will put on the mantle of star-caliber acting to achieve their goal of a GC, but if they achieve it, and will remain productive members of the American society, I say "live and let live". Let them pay taxes just like everyone else, let them live under the laws that we all must abide by. We (the USC) were lucky enough to have been born here; if they want to be here so badly that they will give up their friends and their homeland to have that, so be it. I have a problem with the ones who would "go on the dole", but then again I have a problem with 90% of the USC who collect welfare and make it a way of life. But I digress......

The twist in the equation is the marriage that may fail along the way. Ultimately, it fails because of the 2 human beings at the center of the union....not because one immigrated to the U.S., not because they are from diffierent cultures or religions. It fails for the same reasons it does when a marriage between 2 USC fails; someone lacks moral integrity and they decide to cheat, or because one person can manage money and the other can't spend it fast enough, or because one is nasty neat and the other is a slob, or because both lack good communications skills....the list is endless. It is because we are HUMAN that we fail, not whether we were born in one country or another. I think that everyone contemplating the sponsorship of their SO should take the cue from Clueless and have a similar conversation. Bravo to you, Clueless, for a very forward-thinking approach.

[Sherri and Matt 1]

Good topic Len, and I agree with you. Marriages fail all the time, for uncountable reasons. Yet here, on VisaJourney, most failures are automatically blamed on immigration fraud, it's ridiculous.

There has been some discussion in this thread about people not wanting to leave the U.S. after the marriage fails. So? I fail to see how that fact in and of itself implies fraud. I also fail to understand why people automatically want to send their ex-spouses out of the country. So you signed an affadavit of support, oh well, it was your choice, your risk.

The thing that annoys me most, and I am not saying it happens all the time, is the " I brought someone here from county xyz and they used me just to get to America and it's been over for 2 weeks and I need to know how to do another petition for my fiancee from the same country". Who was frauding who?

Marriage is hard, period. Yet we all choose to enter marriage with tremendous amounts of baggage, whether it's culture shock for one, the fact someone gave up their family, their jobs, their friends, everything right down to favorite foods. Then throw on top all the stress of the immigration process, and I would be willing to bet there is a far greater likelihood of divorce for us. Yes I know fraud happens. But I don't believe it happens nearly as much as it is claimed here. Sometimes people just need to put on some big girl panties and face reality.