Blue Slip 11/18 HCM

[Anh map 2,098]

My friends, thanks to this forum, I have been meticulous in putting our petition together. All reciepts, joint taxes, photos, tickets tubs, cards, letters, emails, chat logs, insurance, life insurance, etc have been assemembled and was acutally submitted with the initial I-130.

I amended our timeline to fall in line with that standard questions they asked and to answer the questions more directly. We found my fathers' birth cert, but there is not way we are able to track down my mothers. We don't have the resources to return to the villages. My mom will sign a notorized letter explaining this and I will attach two affivadits from my grandfather stating how many children he had, with whom, and a letter from my aunt as well. These will also attest to the time and place of my mother's birth.

We included all the pictures and evidence with the intial application and also brought it along but I don't think they looked at any of it?

In any case, I will make sure the evdience package is accepted along with our document request. I have a very strong suspiciation that the word Cau and Duong were not properly translated during the interview to the CO? It is frustating because I knew this was going to be an issue. The timeline clearly shows how we do not share anway common ancestors. It is only through the marriage of my mom's half-sister and my wife's mother's brother that our families are remotely connected at all. Its odd we were acutally worried that the Vietnamese officials would raise flags about the need for birth certs for my parents when we did our marriage registration, but it went without a hitch.

I am not going to see an attorney, because there is nothing here that an attorney could do to make the our case any clearer. I welcome the investigation because there is nothing for them to uncover. It just is unfortunate because I wanted my wife here to help me move into our new place before the new year. :-(

What type of resources are needed to contact / visit the proper office in the area where they were born? A bit of time and money? If I were the CO and was given this reasoning I would think that there was a reason that you did not want to supply the requested information. The same reason that the CO questioned your relationship.

I am not accusing. However one of the oft given pieces of advice dispensed here is to think like the CO. The Consulate website says that you must get a statement from the civil registrar's office stating that the b/c isn't available. This is what they will expect to see in order to approve the petition and give your wife the visa.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Anh map

[toddandhien 2]

Also, it is not the consulate's job to investigate. It is your responsibility to convince them that the relationship is bona fide. They are trained to believe it is a scam until proven otherwise. They don't care if she gets a visa or not. You do, so I would recommend complying with any requirements necessary.

[luckytxn 2,264]

So it seems that this front loading of the stuff they usually ask for like the timeline is not working that well.

[ScottThuy 140]

I think it depends on the specific case... and how well the relationship is communicated in the filing. This case appears to be one with a red flag that was not effectively addressed in the filing and interview to the satisfaction of the CO... I suspect that should the issue with the relatives had not existed it may have been approved..

As long as they are able to document the specific circumstances of the relationship and relatives to the satisfaction of the CO, they can get approved... but it hinges upon them getting the proper documentation....

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

I think it depends on the specific case... and how well the relationship is communicated in the filing. This case appears to be one with a red flag that was not effectively addressed in the filing and interview to the satisfaction of the CO... I suspect that should the issue with the relatives had not existed it may have been approved..

As long as they are able to document the specific circumstances of the relationship and relatives to the satisfaction of the CO, they can get approved... but it hinges upon them getting the proper documentation....

I agree. Information can work for or against you. Apparently, the consulate felt that the information provided with the petition revealed a red flag, but the evidence provided didn't adequately de-fang it. Even if the petition had not been frontloaded, the "How did you meet?" question would have revealed the potential red flag, and the beneficiary would have been required to address it. We can't conclude that the frontloading didn't help. We can only conclude that it didn't help enough to avoid the blue slip.

I think the bottom line is that the consulate suspects the relationship is a setup for immigration. They always suspect this when the couple are introduced by a family member of the beneficiary. When there are already ties between the two families, they probably suspect both families are working together to arrange things. What the consulate is doing now is fishing for an excuse to deny the application. If the consulate sincerely believes that this approach will produce the evidence they need to deny, I think they're taking a risk. If the birth certificates are produced and they show no blood relationship, then their theory is shot and they have no grounds to deny. If the birth certificates cannot be produced, then they are left with the same information that USCIS had when the petition was approved, and again they have no grounds to deny. Their only hope of succeeding with this approach is if the birth certificates are produced, and they show that there IS a blood relationship. They must know that the odds of this happening is extremely remote, or it would have been insane to include evidence of it with the petition.

Again, I think they're sending the petitioner and beneficiary on a paper chase so that they can investigate further. The family relationship was just a convenient excuse.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Or some are tenaciously clinging to the importance of front loading no matter the evidence not showing that it helps.

[Dau Que 6]

With all that's been commented, that's why I said in my first response, that the OP should have a legal representation by an experienced immigration lawyer, from the beginning of their journey. But the OP thinks he could save some $$ and outsmarted the CO. The OP's case does warrant for such need. If everyone is like him and refuses to pay $$$, how you suppose immigration lawyers make a living?

Go ahead, take your chance. Just remember, some members currently in AR have been waithing for months. Whatever you decide to do, also keep in mind the CO do read these forums.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Dau Que

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Or some are tenaciously clinging to the importance of front loading no matter the evidence not showing that it helps.

The "evidence" that it helps will always only be anecdotal, at best, unless we get an HCM CO to post here. At least one VJ member who got pink reported that most of the questions at the interview came directly from the timeline submitted BEFORE the interview. Also, a well known (though not always well liked) immigration attorney in HCM wrote an article that covers the subject of frontloading in depth, and the legal basis for why it can disarm the consulate. That article is often cited here. Whether one agrees with the opinions of that attorney or not, I think it's safe to say that he sees the results of a lot more cases at the consulate in HCM than most of us, and he seems to believe very strongly in frontloading.

Further, countless VJ members have testified that there is overwhelming evidence that the initial decision is made before the beneficiary steps up to the window for the interview. If you have a chance to address the red flags in your case before the initial decision is made, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of it?

Personally, I don't think it will ever be possible to prove conclusively either way. A single case where frontloading failed to get a pink slip doesn't prove that frontloading doesn't work. In fact, it doesn't even prove that frontloading didn't help in that particular case. For all we know, frontloading may have been the reason for getting a blue slip instead of an outright denial. All I can say is that the reasons given for frontloading make a lot of sense to me.

[ScottThuy 140]

Call it frontloading or just making a good clear case... it all boils down to the same thing... removing doubt when the CO reads the paperwork... if there are any questions that arise when they review the paperwork that are not addressed within the initial filing, it just creates a reason for a blue or worst yet a white slip.. By including the timeline in the initial filing we are giving the CO a clearer picture of the relationship than if we had left it out...

IMO frontloading cant hurt.. but not providing a clear case or not addressing obvious red flags can...

[Anh map 2,098]

So it seems that this front loading of the stuff they usually ask for like the timeline is not working that well.

I am not sure I understand your point? The CO asked for more information about parent and grandparent birthplaces.

We all know how your case went through quickly and smoothly. So did others. While many others are having problems.

Following the recommendation of an experienced immigration attorney along with others having success at HCMC does seem like a sensible thing.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Anh map

[BinhJerome 14]

I think having a attorney can be said is a good thing, however all they really do is help you address what may or may not be a red flag, and they make sure that you have the paper work correctly filled out. They can give you an interview and help you get prepared, but ultimately they can and do not go with you at the interview, and they cannot talk to the CO. The choice is yours if you get one or not. I feel that if you look at some people that just got approved, they are lucky, 2 trips and 5 days each? asking to marry on the internet in under a month? Showing up not knowing the person for one month? Having what appears to be a very small engagement party? An entire relationship under 8 months???? Now how do you think that got passed??? Luck that is how and a roll of the dice. I have seen cases that have tons more evidence get approved, and even denied, some with and some without attorneys. I think if the CO has a bad feeling, or makes he makes a judgment call on one statement, it will not matter what your case is, and you will get denied. Look at our case in particular, the reasons for denial were bull, Mark Ellis said everything we did was great, and we should have gotten approved, yet we got denied, and even with the denial, it was proved at least one of their reasons was a all out lie. I think an attorney can help, but if you are a reasonably smart/confident person you can do everything yourself and spending an extra $1500 is just a waste. Regardless of what a person chooses it is their choice, and this is my opinion nothing you can do really helps, no matter what you do or do not do it is up to a corrupt system where the CO is not held accountable for his/her actions, and even when faced with facts that the CO with held evidence, and gave a denial there is nothing that can be done. I contacted a attorney, who got through at the US level, and they did a "fact finding" investigation, the CO that did our interview had notes of our chat logs, and of over 200 photos that were at the interview, as well as a statement from him that noted Binh said she had "Friends in Texas and Ohio, and family in California maybe other states, but not certain", he also noted that I was there when resubmission of evidence was presented, as well as a note at the top of the file that I was there on the 13th of October. With that said, the US consulate said "After review of evidence that was obtained we have found that there are serious issues that need to be addressed and that the reason for denial was clearly and unmistakably wrong. However we regret to inform you that we do not have the authority to reverse the decision." Now we were told we can do a rebuttal if we choose, which would bring the case back to HCMC and that there was more than a 50% chance that the same CO would get the case, also that with the investigation being done the attorney stated that there was a chance that even if we got a different attorney they would either just deny our case or approve it without any troubles. I am and was planning on moving to Vietnam during this "investigation" I simply wanted to do something about the injustice we were dealt, in hopes that such things would not happen again, or at least that CO's "might" and I stress MIGHT think twice before making false accusations on a denial that can be proven wrong. With this there is hope for others that have been denied that truly believe it was done improperly. Between my Senator, and the Attorney I am sure that I have rattled the cages of at least a few people in HCMC. Jerome

[Dai. 7]

Makes me wonder does it matter to the CO that they see that the petitioner and beneficiary are represented by an attorney. We did have an attorney handle our case and all documents that he sent into USCIS and NVC had his attorney cover letter on it with all his information about his law office and his state where he took his bar. I don't know if it help our case or not but I sure like to think it did.

[wratran 0]

my 129f also had an attorney cover letter on it.