US-Peru Free Trade Agreement

[Fandango 1,439]

It was implied, don't act like it wasn't...

As far as pfta....we got enough to worry about with the walmart-ization here. It's the same thing....so if we can't stop it here, what makes you think we can stop it there?

NAFTA was a failure and it cost American jobs (one issue). It's about learning from our mistakes. Read those reasons on that link and then we can have something more substantial to talk about.

Don't dismiss a portion of your article because it's proven to be nothing more than histrionic bullchit. You were more than willing to talk about illeg immi before Art handed you your azz on that, now it's not 'substantial' enuff.

Maybe YOU should read your own article in it's entirety.....you have a habit of not doing that Remeber that one article that you posted about a ring where you didn't know a word I used...which was defined within the article? Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin same scenario here since you wanna distance yourself from the illegal immi portion of the article

[Artegal 1]

Steven, don't act like he's misconstruing your words....read your article again.

Furthermore...you seemed fine wanting to discuss illegal immi before you got the verbal smackdown...now it's all 'oh that wasn't the point'

cmon...take yer lumps and get it over with

This has already happened in Mexico

where tens of thousands of small Mexican farmers have been forced to

abandon their farms because of cheap

US subsidized corn dumped on the Mexican market. Where do you suppose

thousands of these displaced farmers are going? You guessed it -

thousands of them are trying to get across the border into the US. Do

you blame them?

This was nothing but a mere mention of one of the consequence from NAFTA. The argument isn't being made that the US/Peru FTA is going to cause an influx of illegal immigrants, but of the types of negative consequences when we have unfair trade.

Key Reasons to Oppose the Peru Free Trade Agreement

http://www.citizenstrade.org/pdf/reasonstoopposeperufta.pdf

Artegal, or anyone willing to debate the reasons for opposing the PFTA, let's discuss it.

Well as I already stated--Illegal Immigration had long since been a problem between USA and Mexico--long before NAFTA or any other free-trade agreement was even an idea--much less a law.

Has there been a rash of Illegal Immigrants from Chile? The U.S.-Chile Free Trade Agreement officially took effect on January 1, 2004. And so far Chile has been a very stable country with a superstar economy compared to the rest of South America. I find that most of the produce in my local supermarkets are fruits and vegetables from Chile. So I there was not any link between free-trade and illegal immigration in this instance.

Most Peruvian cotton is not sold in Peru--its manufactured into clothing or other textiles and sold to the developed world. Furthermore--peasant farmers are being replaced in Peru with or without free trade agreements--case: a VP for Jolly Green Giant was with me on the plane to Lima last time I went there. They were opening up a huge processing plant for Broccoli and Asparagus. I saw farms owned by European and North American and other Latin American grocer/agricultural giants in my travels. And there has not been a rash of illegal Peruvians coming to the USA. Now had Ollanta been elected a radical-fascist-antiforeigner-demigod been elected--then I could definitely see many well to do Peruvians wanting to get out of dodge--and the less well to do looking for any means to make means, or get out too.

And to the mention about Walmart--I remember seeing recently Panetons and Peruvian Onions being sold in Walmart--and so Walmart and this PFTA will ensure that more Peru stuff will make to the largest consumer market in the world.

[gimygirl 0]

[Artegal 1]

jejeje

She can't eat it so she wears it?

[Fandango 1,439]

I prefer the bunny...he's wayyy more absurd!

[gimygirl 0]

I prefer the bunny...he's wayyy more absurd!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It was implied, don't act like it wasn't...

As far as pfta....we got enough to worry about with the walmart-ization here. It's the same thing....so if we can't stop it here, what makes you think we can stop it there?

NAFTA was a failure and it cost American jobs (one issue). It's about learning from our mistakes. Read those reasons on that link and then we can have something more substantial to talk about.

Don't dismiss a portion of your article because it's proven to be nothing more than histrionic bullchit. You were more than willing to talk about illeg immi before Art handed you your azz on that, now it's not 'substantial' enuff.

Maybe YOU should read your own article in it's entirety.....you have a habit of not doing that Remeber that one article that you posted about a ring where you didn't know a word I used...which was defined within the article? Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin same scenario here since you wanna distance yourself from the illegal immi portion of the article

Lisa - as I stated before, I'd be more than happy to debate the causes and effects of illegal immigration with you or anyone here in a different thread. I'm not dismissing the implication, I'm placing the emphasis on the issue of the PFTA that is going to be voted on in Congress.

Take for example the following and then comment on it:

In 11 years of NAFTA we went from a roughly even trade balance with Canada and Mexico to a $100 billion per year trade deficit – a significant portion of our $726 billion global trade deficit that threatens economic growth. We already run a trade deficit of $2.8 billion with Peru, and it will almost certainly grow under PFTA, further exacerbating our global deficit.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Well as I already stated--Illegal Immigration had long since been a problem between USA and Mexico--long before NAFTA or any other free-trade agreement was even an idea--much less a law.

Has there been a rash of Illegal Immigrants from Chile? The U.S.-Chile Free Trade Agreement officially took effect on January 1, 2004. And so far Chile has been a very stable country with a superstar economy compared to the rest of South America. I find that most of the produce in my local supermarkets are fruits and vegetables from Chile. So I there was not any link between free-trade and illegal immigration in this instance.

Most Peruvian cotton is not sold in Peru--its manufactured into clothing or other textiles and sold to the developed world. Furthermore--peasant farmers are being replaced in Peru with or without free trade agreements--case: a VP for Jolly Green Giant was with me on the plane to Lima last time I went there. They were opening up a huge processing plant for Broccoli and Asparagus. I saw farms owned by European and North American and other Latin American grocer/agricultural giants in my travels. And there has not been a rash of illegal Peruvians coming to the USA. Now had Ollanta been elected a radical-fascist-antiforeigner-demigod been elected--then I could definitely see many well to do Peruvians wanting to get out of dodge--and the less well to do looking for any means to make means, or get out too.

And to the mention about Walmart--I remember seeing recently Panetons and Peruvian Onions being sold in Walmart--and so Walmart and this PFTA will ensure that more Peru stuff will make to the largest consumer market in the world.

Interesting that you would call Ollanta a fascist - perhaps you should read up on just what fascism is. In particular, look up Musollini and the corporatism of fascist Italy during WW2. Under Musollini's fascism - corporations shaped public policy, much like what has been happening in the U.S. recently. The problem with corporatism (an element of facism) is that it takes away the voice and the will of the people - essentially anti-democratic since you're fond of 'anti' terms.

We (USA) strikes a balance when it comes to South American politics because what is there on the far right is fascist, suppressive regimes where people's rights are squashed. On the far left, you have the communists who are fighting for the rights of workers. To declare the left as being evil is not only inaccurate, it's absurd. It's funny that today we have normal trade relations with China, our largest importer which is also under communist rule. It's hypocritical to look down upon the communism of South America while turning a blind eye to China's.

As far as your comment on Walmart carrying Peruvian produce....

Agriculture is an integral part of Peru’s economy. Nearly a third of the population depends on agriculture for their livelihood and the vast majority of farmers produce on small plots for domestic consumption. Similarly to the US-Central America Free Trade agreement passed by Congress last summer, the US-Peru FTA does not take into account that the US subsidizes farm production with billions of dollars in taxpayer support. This could spell economic disaster for the millions of people in Peru who depend on agriculture. They could face massive dumping of subsidized farm products on their market. Farmers of wheat, corn, rice, barley and cotton, central to Peru’s domestic economy, will be particularly affected. Although the trade agreement is supposed to help in the fight against drug trafficking, poor farmers who cannot sell their corn and rice will have few other options but to grow coca to survive.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[mawilson 2,133]

US exports are good for America. Why should Americans place the interests of a foreign state

above the interests of their own country?

[Artegal 1]

Interesting that you would call Ollanta a fascist - perhaps you should read up on just what fascism is. In particular, look up Musollini and the corporatism of fascist Italy during WW2. Under Musollini's fascism - corporations shaped public policy, much like what has been happening in the U.S. recently. The problem with corporatism (an element of facism) is that it takes away the voice and the will of the people - essentially anti-democratic since you're fond of 'anti' terms.

We (USA) strikes a balance when it comes to South American politics because what is there on the far right is fascist, suppressive regimes where people's rights are squashed. On the far left, you have the communists who are fighting for the rights of workers. To declare the left as being evil is not only inaccurate, it's absurd. It's funny that today we have normal trade relations with China, our largest importer which is also under communist rule. It's hypocritical to look down upon the communism of South America while turning a blind eye to China's.

Maybe I should have said Ollanta the racists nationalist Peruvian Nazi--would you prefer that to fascist? But then in your mind there is no greater evil than capitalism. Its not a coincidence that the ethnocacerista party's flag resembles the nazi party's flag--its pretty clear that my criticism of Ollanta is well founded.

The etnocaceristas also firmly oppose foreign involvement in the economy, particularly from traditional rival Chile. They support the nationalisation of the country's industry (starting with the reversion of recent privatisations), the reintroduction of the death penalty, and the legalisation of coca cultivation. Antauro Humala has also claimed to be a follower of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's "Bolivarian" political philosophy. The movement's leaders are two former army officers, the brothers Antauro Humala (major, retired) and Ollanta Humala (lieutenant colonel, retired) Ethnocacerista reportedly opposes foreign investment, especially Chilean, and may be seeking to incite “Peruvians” (those of Indian or mixed blood) against “foreigners”—Peruvians of European descent.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Interesting that you would call Ollanta a fascist - perhaps you should read up on just what fascism is. In particular, look up Musollini and the corporatism of fascist Italy during WW2. Under Musollini's fascism - corporations shaped public policy, much like what has been happening in the U.S. recently. The problem with corporatism (an element of facism) is that it takes away the voice and the will of the people - essentially anti-democratic since you're fond of 'anti' terms.

We (USA) strikes a balance when it comes to South American politics because what is there on the far right is fascist, suppressive regimes where people's rights are squashed. On the far left, you have the communists who are fighting for the rights of workers. To declare the left as being evil is not only inaccurate, it's absurd. It's funny that today we have normal trade relations with China, our largest importer which is also under communist rule. It's hypocritical to look down upon the communism of South America while turning a blind eye to China's.

Maybe I should have said Ollanta the racists nationalist Peruvian Nazi--would you prefer that to fascist? But then in your mind there is no greater evil than capitalism. Its not a coincidence that the ethnocacerista party's flag resembles the nazi party's flag--its pretty clear that my criticism of Ollanta is well founded.

I was pointing out that since you abhore fascism, you ought to be aware of corporatism as a component of fascism and the PFTA works to the benefit of corporations rights over individual rights. Secondly, where did I ever say capitalism is evil? The term 'free trade' is a ruse because if you really truly embraced capitalism, you would support true competition. True competition doesn't and can't exist without somebody being the referee. Can you imagine the NFL getting rid of the rules and refs? So what's the beef about ensuring we establish fair trade vs. favoritism through subsidation? A free market is only as free as it's capacity to fully function through true competition. Without that and the whole thing falls apart. Milton Friedman must have at least understood that concept.

I wasn't supporting Ollanta - in fact I know little about Peruvian politicians. But I stand behind my contention that it's hypocritical to look down on the communism of South America, while we openly embrace China through trade relations, even when China is one of the biggest violators of human rights.

US exports are good for America. Why should Americans place the interests of a foreign state

above the interests of their own country?

Heh, that question could apply to our current crisis in Iraq...but let's not go off on that tangent.

Seriously though - did ya even read the reasons why we as Americans should oppose the PFTA?

Did ya see the stat on trade deficit since NAFTA was implemented?

Oye...

[iceyspots 0]

[Artegal 1]

This thread is confusing for you pancake-hat-wearers! because Steven-jinky is like a lawn sprinkler all over the place with his presumed point.

Steven: what is your point. First you begin with saying that Free-Trade agreements are bad because they cause illegal immigration--that is it will cause the ruin of the non-US economy and therefore encourage out of work working class farmers to high tail it to the USA as illegal aliens. And then you switch up and say that the Free-Trade agreements causes the loss of jobs in the USA. And then you turn and say that the increasing deficit with Free-Trade hurts the USA. Then you go on about corporate american being little Mussolinis, and then you say that having a trade relationship with China is wrong since we don't yet have trade agreements with south american countries that have wannabe hitlers and Moasist drug cartels.

Okay so here are your points?

1) Jobs are lost in the other country in the FTA, and then those workers illegally go to the USA to get a new job here.

2) Jobs are lost in the USA because they are exported to the other country in the FTA.

3) Deficit increases and therefore does what?

4) Communism protects workers, but abuse human rights--corporations are bad because they employ people but influence the government.

1 and 2 just show that FTA is a two way street. Which in the long-run total exports=total imports.

3 Deficits are overrated--many exports of the USA are not counted because they are unmeasurable and therefore the Deficit seems artificially high. It really is a case of comparing apples and oranges not to each other but to intellectual property, service related products, and other non-commodity items.

4 Which method helps a communist state open up and lessen the abuse of human rights--embargoes like with Cuba and North Korea, or free trade like with China and the former Soviet Republics. Embargoes don't work.

[MandR 0]

Steven....... I gotta ask... have you ever been to Peru ?????

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Steven....... I gotta ask... have you ever been to Peru ?????

where can we sign up? i always wanted to see a llama