Takalaamal deen

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

My husband's sister lives in Saudia with her husband. She has had some unpleasant experiences there -- for instance, some women slapped her in the street because she does not wear the niqab (face covering) or limit herself to only black abayas. It is not her favorite place to live, as she is used to a much different kind of society in Palestine.

But of course there are many very very nice people there as well. Saudi Arabian society is admittedly very conservative, and not everyone could easily adapt to it, but it is their right to create their society as they wish.

-MK

[Veiled Princess 1]

some women slapped her in the street because she does not wear the niqab (face covering) or limit herself to only black abayas.

That's sad

[Veiled Princess 1]

My husband's sister lives in Saudia with her husband. She has had some unpleasant experiences there -- for instance, some women slapped her in the street because she does not wear the niqab (face covering) or limit herself to only black abayas. It is not her favorite place to live, as she is used to a much different kind of society in Palestine.

But of course there are many very very nice people there as well. Saudi Arabian society is admittedly very conservative, and not everyone could easily adapt to it, but it is their right to create their society as they wish.

-MK

I'd like to point out that not all those who follow the methodology of the salafi believe it is obligatory to cover the face and hands. Shaykhal Albanee was a great sholar of hadeeth and he said some of the ahadeeth that cause the salafi scholars to say this are weak. He also points out the hadeeth in which the prophet told Asmaa, after the age of puberty, nothing but this and this should show and he pointed to his hands and face as proof that is it not a requirement to have those two areas covered. It is better but it's not obligatory.

There is also nothing wrong with wearing colored clothing because there are ahadeeth in which it is mentioned that such and such wore a green veil or red or yellow.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

My husband lived in Saudi Arabia for awhile when he was a kid and has very fond memories. This was years and years ago, and from what I've heard from friends who live there, a lot has changed. By the time we're ready to move out of the US (5, 10, 20 years from now), who knows what it will be like?

We'll go for hajj, and maybe for a Rihla (my two deepest desires, check out the blog from last years rihla *faints*).

Edited July 21, 2006 by rahma

[iceyspots 0]

I'd never care to go to saudi.. I'd be too afraid I'd get forced back into a burning building and die if I left it without my head covering...

Has that happened more than once? Were the men who did that not punished?

Ok I found this "When you differ in any matter refer to Allah and his Messenger" [EMQ 4:59 so some of us are not muslim but would like to find the information you maybe discussing. Where online if you quote from the koran and sunnah can we find what you are discussing? I ordered a koran in english "thanks to rebecca" but won't receive for i don't konw when....and i don't want to get lost in the discussion or have it go over my head...

Angel

Angel,

I also wanted to give you this website. Islamic finder will link you directly to the page to search the Quran. You can even choose which translation you'd like to search. I hope this helps.

I am not sure if a fire incidient happend more than once, but it is just one example of the many ways where religion is taken way too far... where it starts to turn backwards.. how would you feel if your husband or your society would rather have you die than to have a man see your hair (and I'd imagine a fire disaster is not even the place to have a sexually stimulating environment)... I did a web search and found no site, even 2 weeks after the incident that showed that the morality police were reprimanded... one source said they were sent there to protect the women.. yeah.. ok..

I think a secular government is the greatest thing to have in Algeria.. If you want to be muslim and pray and live how you want islamically, you can...and people praise you for it... if you are jewish you can live just fine, christians in algeria live just fine.. the people do as they like.. women have freedom of dress.. you see women wearing full niqab, you see women hijab, you see women without hijab but dressed conservatively, and then you see people with european style dress ... or even lots of girls on the beach in bikinis... and you see women hijabbed swimming in the sea (like me, yes it was weird).. and for the most part nobody is going to bother you! No morality police to come by and beat you with a stick. In my humble opinion, the way the Saudis run their country obliges and forces everyone to live a certain way.. and in my opinion.. people who are not muslim by heart.. will conform to these expectations because they will be ostracized if they don't... so this means there's a lot of born muslims there who do prayer but just do it so people don't flame them..

The poor women, I feel for them.. By all means I'm not saying that all are treated terribly...

But you have to think about all the muslims who do not have Islam in their heart... go to google trends... google the word "gay sex" and Saudi Arabia ranks number 2 in the world in google searches...

Next time you make a trip to ME/NA... try to find someone that has the HOTBIRD sattelite connection... Seriously, every single "1-800" naked woman sex line has a big Saudi flag that says "Hot Sex Arab Chat"...

It has to make you wonder.

I dont know about you, but I would much more prefer to pray next to another muslim that is good in their heart and their intentions... than to pray next to another muslim who prays just for the sake of not being treated like dirt by society.

[Bosco 1]

I guess my biggest issue is that the birthplace of Islam yet they seem to have created their own Islam. The Prophet was tolerant of other religions yet a bible can be destroyed (and remember the outrage over the handling of the Quran) if you are caught entering with it. Submission to Islam is forced in many ways. Is obedience to God that is forced true obedience?

As far as the school fire Layla, how were the Mutawwa'in punshed? Things of that scale do not happen often but working over 20 years in a hospital, by aunt saw women routinely not given proper healthcare because of concerns of modesty, injured while locked in homes (this is true for migrant workers as well) and unable to get urgent care. I do think current times are worse and this is in many cases a revival. A child's perceptions are of course different, but my aunt and mother do not recall many of these things in the 50's and 60's in Saudi.

I agree with MK that there are nice people. Over the years, as things would occasionally become unsafe for my aunt, there were Saudis who reached out to her, they would tell her when the Friday sermon was particularly virulent and suggest she lay low and offer to get things for her.

I think people find "home" in diverse places and what is not for me may be heaven on earth for another.

Rebecca

My husband's sister lives in Saudia with her husband. She has had some unpleasant experiences there -- for instance, some women slapped her in the street because she does not wear the niqab (face covering) or limit herself to only black abayas. It is not her favorite place to live, as she is used to a much different kind of society in Palestine.

But of course there are many very very nice people there as well. Saudi Arabian society is admittedly very conservative, and not everyone could easily adapt to it, but it is their right to create their society as they wish.

-MK

Edited July 21, 2006 by Bosco

[gimygirl 0]

well hopefully can respect the request .... noura did acquire my services as backup ... should they be needed ... i can't afford a dock in pay this week ... baby needs new shoes!!!!

Gimy, just to set the record, I did not acquire, nor do I *require* your services... I was just playing words back to you in hopes of keeping things lighthearted regarding your presence. *At ease, soldier*...

back to our regularly scheduled program... thanks!

Noura

if you are going to make a joke in my direction, be prepared to receive one back. i'm sure everyone was aware that i'm here of my own volition ... glad to see my presence brought some lightheartedness!! carry on!

[Veiled Princess 1]

Arab News Go here and search for "14 girls", there are articles there explaining what really happened. The guard was away, he was not preventing them from leaving; he just wasn't there... he should have been there!

Also, none of the girls who died actually died of being burned... they were trampled to death because all the girls freaked out and started rushing the gates.

The king also visited the injured girls in the hospital and they are more concerned there with the fact that this building (and other girls' schools) was/is not suitible than spreading rumors that "men wouldn't let them out with their hair showing".

Edited to change my link because it didn't work. Sorry

Edited July 21, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

I am glad that this thread has been created...a lot to catch up since yesterday...I love reading all that so far has been said...Thank you to all contributors ...I find it to be a great supplemental reading to anything that I have already read from different sources...

I will probably inject some questions here and there as I have very limited knowledge of Islam but my interest is still thirsty for more information...

Thank you ladies for keeping VJ interesting....

Dorothy

[Bosco 1]

Regardless of which version you believe, this version or the more widely reported one, it is the same result - a school locked to protect virtue with only a guard having a key or the religious police barring their exit.

Rebecca

Arab News Go here and search for "14 girls", there are articles there explaining what really happened. The guard was away, he was not preventing them from leaving; he just wasn't there... he should have been there!

Also, none of the girls who died actually died of being burned... they were trampled to death because all the girls freaked out and started rushing the gates.

The king also visited the injured girls in the hospital and they are more concerned there with the fact that this building (and other girls' schools) was/is not suitible than spreading rumors that "men wouldn't let them out with their hair showing".

Edited to change my link because it didn't work. Sorry

[iceyspots 0]

Arab News Go here and search for "14 girls", there are articles there explaining what really happened. The guard was away, he was not preventing them from leaving; he just wasn't there... he should have been there!

Also, none of the girls who died actually died of being burned... they were trampled to death because all the girls freaked out and started rushing the gates.

The king also visited the injured girls in the hospital and they are more concerned there with the fact that this building (and other girls' schools) was/is not suitible than spreading rumors that "men wouldn't let them out with their hair showing".

Edited to change my link because it didn't work. Sorry

In 1975 Saudi Research & Publishing Co. (SRPC) launched the first Saudi English-language daily newspaper, ArabNews.

Quoted from Arab News

I don't know how everyone else feels, but it looks like a big slant to me.

Edited July 21, 2006 by iceyspots

[Veiled Princess 1]

Regardless of which version you believe, this version or the more widely reported one, it is the same result - a school locked to protect virtue with only a guard having a key or the religious police barring their exit.

Rebecca

I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way I'm hearing it here... the men in Saudi (fathers, brothers, uncles) were standing at the gate watching the girls burn up and refusing to let them out just because their hair was showing.... and I don't believe that's how it went down.

It's much more likely that the schools for girls there are poor because women's education is not valued at the level it should be. They should provide better buildings for the schools so this doesn't happen again.

If they want to lock the gates, I don't see a problem with it. They should probably post the guard on the opposite side of the gate in the future and also have someone to relieve him when he walks away.

[Together4ever 1]

Submission to Islam is forced in many ways. Is obedience to God that is forced true obedience?

After all the hoopla, I have been walking around thinking about this Rebecca. I'm glad you said it.

[Bosco 1]

I think this is why some Muslims feel more free to practice their faith here and even stronger in their convictions. You don't necessarily pray out of habit or because the friends you are with are headed to mosque, or because business as usual ceases for prayer time, but because it is a purposely made decision and often even inconvenient. If you choose to eat halal, it certainly isn't as easy as it is in a Muslim country. Many aspects of Islam take an effort here, are not rote. From my understanding of the Qur'an, the effort will be rewarded.

Rebecca

Submission to Islam is forced in many ways. Is obedience to God that is forced true obedience?

After all the hoopla, I have been walking around thinking about this Rebecca. I'm glad you said it.

[iceyspots 0]

I think this is why some Muslims feel more free to practice their faith here and even stronger in their convictions. You don't necessarily pray out of habit or because the friends you are with are headed to mosque, or because business as usual ceases for prayer time, but because it is a purposely made decision and often even inconvenient. If you choose to eat halal, it certainly isn't as easy as it is in a Muslim country. Many aspects of Islam take an effort here, are not rote. From my understanding of the Qur'an, the effort will be rewarded.

Rebecca

Submission to Islam is forced in many ways. Is obedience to God that is forced true obedience?

After all the hoopla, I have been walking around thinking about this Rebecca. I'm glad you said it.