Okay I'm calm ... here's what happened, here's what I did...

[pushbrk 12,898]

I followed the procedure to have our visas expedited, and we met the requirements. I don't think that the fact that our visas were expedited should be held against us later by an officer who was not involved in making the decision. The decision was already made, based on medical documentation of serious illness, and was approved by three different agencies - the USCIS, the NVC, and the Abu Dhabi Embassy itself. I think that says something about the validity of our expedite.

What's all of you guy's take on this? I'm curious.

Verde, just a clarification for you regarding your terminology. You did not have your visa expedited....you received an expedited ajudicaton of your visa petition(the I130) at the USCIS level, you received and expedited processing through at the NVC level, and from the consulate(not the embassy) you received an expedited interview date. Your visa was not expedited...that is not a possibility. There is no 'expedite' to the visa approval process. Sometimes the visa is approved immediately upon the conclusion of the interview, and sometimes a certain amount of AP/AR is given.

Yes, our APPLICATION was expedited, not the visa. It's terminology, I know - but you get what I mean. Semantics really plays a big role in this immigration stuff!

Again, "application" is the incorrect terminology. Your "petition" was expedited through USCIS. Your "case" was expedited through NVC and your "interview appointment" was expedited at the Consular services division at the Embassy. The DS 230 was the "application". No "application" was expedited. At this point though, the terminology is not the number one concern.

Thanks for the clarification. Now I just want to know what part of our proof of bona fide relationship is insufficient and why they won't seem to allow us to change our "process" (terminology again) from K3 to CR1.

Nobody can answer your first question except to remind you that the decision about bona fides is made based on the totality of circumstances, evidence and testimony (the interview). Perhaps the visa will be issued based on your latest submissions. You can only wait and see. However, they will not and cannot issue a K3 visa under this set of circumstances. No matter WHAT they told you, any visa at this point would be the CR1. Count on it.

[STEPHnRIA 2]

A lot of times, complete documents or whether you followed the instructions/laws don't matter anymore. You will be surprised of what they will ask or need in the interview. Honestly speaking, reading from your other posts, the USEM co has doubts whether you have bonafide relationship. As you have said, the co said you are older than your husband.

[pushbrk 12,898]

A lot of times, complete documents or whether you followed the instructions/laws don't matter anymore. You will be surprised of what they will ask or need in the interview. Honestly speaking, reading from your other posts, the USEM co has doubts whether you have bonafide relationship. As you have said, the co said you are older than your husband.

The age difference is just one factor in evaluating the relationship bona fides. The totality of the circumstances, evidence and testimony in the interview are all used to judge whether the relationship is bona fide or exclusively for the purpose of obtaining an immigration benefit.

[verde 0]

A lot of times, complete documents or whether you followed the instructions/laws don't matter anymore. You will be surprised of what they will ask or need in the interview. Honestly speaking, reading from your other posts, the USEM co has doubts whether you have bonafide relationship. As you have said, the co said you are older than your husband.

The age difference is just one factor in evaluating the relationship bona fides. The totality of the circumstances, evidence and testimony in the interview are all used to judge whether the relationship is bona fide or exclusively for the purpose of obtaining an immigration benefit.

So what is the age requirement? Do you have to be the same age? Within two years? Three? Five? Is it okay if a man is older than a woman? What if a woman is older than a man? What are the age differences between everyone posting here? I am only saying this to demonstrate that this age difference thing is discrimination, plain and simple, and I hope that they change federal laws so that an age difference is NOT a factor in determining whether a marriage is valid or not.

[pushbrk 12,898]

A lot of times, complete documents or whether you followed the instructions/laws don't matter anymore. You will be surprised of what they will ask or need in the interview. Honestly speaking, reading from your other posts, the USEM co has doubts whether you have bonafide relationship. As you have said, the co said you are older than your husband.

The age difference is just one factor in evaluating the relationship bona fides. The totality of the circumstances, evidence and testimony in the interview are all used to judge whether the relationship is bona fide or exclusively for the purpose of obtaining an immigration benefit.

So what is the age requirement? Do you have to be the same age? Within two years? Three? Five? Is it okay if a man is older than a woman? What if a woman is older than a man? What are the age differences between everyone posting here? I am only saying this to demonstrate that this age difference thing is discrimination, plain and simple, and I hope that they change federal laws so that an age difference is NOT a factor in determining whether a marriage is valid or not.

There IS NO age requirement. It really doesn't matter whether you or I think the consideration of age is a legitimate factor or is descrimination. It is simply one factor among many that get considered when evaluating whether the relationship is genuine. It becomes a more important factor when the age difference is outside the cultural norm for the immigrant. I'm not giving you any more examples because they seem to set you on a rant. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or I agree with the legitimacy of such considerations. What matters is that they are used and the Consulate consider them valid considerations.

[SunDrop 59]

It becomes a more important factor when the age difference is outside the cultural norm for the immigrant.

This is what is crucial to the process. The USEMs are very familiar with cultural norms and some countries have much higher levels of expected adherence to these 'cultural rules'. Where there is deviation from these norms, it causes reasonable alarm bells to sound to the COs. In most MENA countries, the cultural norm is for husbands to be older than their wives. A flip around and slight difference is tolerated but a large gap is a no-no.

So yes, it's age discrimination when applying US/European cultural norms but not in many MENA communities.

The role of the CO/USEM/petition process, et al. is to protect the USA and her citizens, of which you are one. This includes protection from abuse of your incredibly valuable and highly desirable nationality/ citizenship.

Instances of cultural discrimination happen all over the world, on a daily basis. In truth, it's something you signed up for when you entered into a cross-cultural relationship. My SO and I had a conversation the other day about a friend of mine's experience here in the UK, and what we would do in a similar situation. She recently gave birth to a son, both parents are USCs. She asked at the hospital when they were going to circumsize her baby and the midwife recoiled in horror, saying she hadn't realised there was any problem with him. My friend replied there isn't, but aren't all baby boys circumsized? The midwife actually sent the hospital based Social Worker in to 'talk' to her because it was, in the eyes of the midwife, tantamount to child abuse to circumsize a baby for any reason other than medical or on religious grounds. They actually had to wait until they traveled home to the US to find a Physician who would circumsize their son, because they couldn't get anyone, even on a private basis, to perform it here.

Despite the US and the UK being similar culturally, my friend was almost branded a child-abuser by the local authorities because she wanted to do something that is completely acceptable where she's from. Was she mortified by it? Yes, of course! Did she start protesting against the cultural norms of her chosen home? Nope. She appreciates that these differences are part of what she signed up for when they decided to move here with her husband's job.

We all understand the frustration, irritation and pain associated with being in love with someone we cannot simply start living a life with. Some are more pragmatic in their approach than others, some experience more barriers than others. The impact this process has on us as individuals all varies too and so (most!) of us proceed here in our interactions with sensitivity and respect for the fact that many are in horrendous situations, and though it's easy to feel otherwise, there is usually someone who is in a much worse predicament than our own. The reality is that sugar-coating rarely does anyone any favours because it is a process over which we, as petitioners and beneficiaries, have little to no control over.

It sounds as though your personal situation has settled down, with clarity brought through a little time and information. The waiting and lack of control we have over our fates is torture - but remember, it is shared... and empathized with.

[verde 0]

It becomes a more important factor when the age difference is outside the cultural norm for the immigrant.

This is what is crucial to the process. The USEMs are very familiar with cultural norms and some countries have much higher levels of expected adherence to these 'cultural rules'. Where there is deviation from these norms, it causes reasonable alarm bells to sound to the COs. In most MENA countries, the cultural norm is for husbands to be older than their wives. A flip around and slight difference is tolerated but a large gap is a no-no.

So yes, it's age discrimination when applying US/European cultural norms but not in many MENA communities.

The role of the CO/USEM/petition process, et al. is to protect the USA and her citizens, of which you are one. This includes protection from abuse of your incredibly valuable and highly desirable nationality/ citizenship.

Instances of cultural discrimination happen all over the world, on a daily basis. In truth, it's something you signed up for when you entered into a cross-cultural relationship. My SO and I had a conversation the other day about a friend of mine's experience here in the UK, and what we would do in a similar situation. She recently gave birth to a son, both parents are USCs. She asked at the hospital when they were going to circumsize her baby and the midwife recoiled in horror, saying she hadn't realised there was any problem with him. My friend replied there isn't, but aren't all baby boys circumsized? The midwife actually sent the hospital based Social Worker in to 'talk' to her because it was, in the eyes of the midwife, tantamount to child abuse to circumsize a baby for any reason other than medical or on religious grounds. They actually had to wait until they traveled home to the US to find a Physician who would circumsize their son, because they couldn't get anyone, even on a private basis, to perform it here.

Despite the US and the UK being similar culturally, my friend was almost branded a child-abuser by the local authorities because she wanted to do something that is completely acceptable where she's from. Was she mortified by it? Yes, of course! Did she start protesting against the cultural norms of her chosen home? Nope. She appreciates that these differences are part of what she signed up for when they decided to move here with her husband's job.

We all understand the frustration, irritation and pain associated with being in love with someone we cannot simply start living a life with. Some are more pragmatic in their approach than others, some experience more barriers than others. The impact this process has on us as individuals all varies too and so (most!) of us proceed here in our interactions with sensitivity and respect for the fact that many are in horrendous situations, and though it's easy to feel otherwise, there is usually someone who is in a much worse predicament than our own. The reality is that sugar-coating rarely does anyone any favours because it is a process over which we, as petitioners and beneficiaries, have little to no control over.

It sounds as though your personal situation has settled down, with clarity brought through a little time and information. The waiting and lack of control we have over our fates is torture - but remember, it is shared... and empathized with.

I've never been in favor of socially or economically imposed discrimination. As I see it, "culturally accepted norms" are merely socially accepted bias disguised as tradition. It's ideology, and is usually originated to benefit one group of people over another. I opposed the "Indian" and "Asian" and "Arab" traditions that a wife be younger than her husband for years before I ever married my husband - and if you want to play the game of social norms, allegedly Mohamed was married to a woman significantly older, and allegedly Ghandi slept with teens - so it's all absurd to me. I'm all about changing inequity and injustice - so that women and men and people of every race, religion, ethnicity, culture, or geographical area have the same rights as anyone else. It is my opinion that everyone should be able to marry who they wish to marry, as long as that person is of legal age and mature enough to make that decision. I would never marry someone who wasn't college educated and had had world travel experience and had had time to decide what they wanted in life. My husband was born in India, lives in Dubai, but was educated in the United States and is westernized - so these "social norms" everyone is referring to - which I feel are unfair to begin with - don't really apply in our case. My family supports this marriage, his family supports this marriage, and there is NO EVIDENCE ANYWHERE that our marriage is fraudulent. The Embassy and anyone else can search the world over for one iota of evidence that says this is a paper marriage - but they will find nothing, because there is nothing to find. I am sure many couples on here have a ten year age difference, and that does not say anything about the legitimacy of their relationship. Love is love. Marriage is marriage. And bias based on age is bias, plain and simple. I hope someday it changes. Until then, I suspect middle aged white males will continue to be allowed to marry Asian women in their late teens and early twenties without question, but when two college educated people with a smaller age difference marry, and it is the woman who is older, they get put under the microscope. Sure, it's not fair. The question is, why do we allow it to be unfair? Margaret Mead - “Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” . Ghandi - "Be the change you wish to see in the world." Obama /Frederick Douglas - "Power concedes nothing without a fight." Nothing will ever change if no one stands up and demands justice. I know this is the way it works, the way the game is played, the way I have to play it for now - but I hope that someday I can help to change things so that the process is less discriminatory and more efficient and fair for future immigrants and their spouses. Sorry, but it frustrates me when I don't see people here posting that things are done inefficiently, often unfairly and that things DO need to change at some point.

[pushbrk 12,898]

Sorry, but it frustrates me when I don't see people here posting that things are done inefficiently, often unfairly and that things DO need to change at some point.

You WILL see such postings but not in these informational forums because it's off-topic. In the specific forums for visa categories, we focus on what to do in the here and now based on how things work today because discussion what "should be" doesn't help with success today.

If you wish to engage in such discussions there's a place for them in the General Immigration Related Discussion forum found here.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showforum=133

[Boiler 45,525]

My wife is older than me, not by much.

My cultural norm is usually the partners are the same sort of age, probably more often than not the male older.

If the London Consulate knowing all this were consistantlygetting petitions where the US partner was much older, or much younger, than the UKC they would be wondering what was going on.

In the Phillipines we know exactly what is going on.

[STEPHnRIA 2]

verde, I agree with pushbrk that its also the totality of circumstances. But this age difference thing is being used against you. It's not about whether you submitted the right paper or not. To be honest with you, my husband and I have almost 10 year age difference on which I am the one who is older. I was surprised this issue did not even come up during my interview. All the time while I was waiting for the interview, we were so scared of that factor. To our suprise, I was grilled about something else. It was a horrible experience for me. Just stay focused on what they need from you and what they want you and your husband to prove.

[HannahP 119]

verde -

You made a remark in a past thread about how people who file K1 visas are bringing over "strangers." Isn't that the same stereotyping that you rail against re. ageism? (I mean, /my/ hubby came over here on a K1 but we lived together for nearly 3 years beforehand. Not two months.)

[Old Dominion 26]

Don't overestimate the factor of age difference in making decisions like this. An applicant for a visa has no civil rights under U.S. law, since there is no right to immigrate. There is no violation of any due process standard or any other international convention that can be applied here. I agree that age should be irrelevant, but it's not and that's not going to change. Race and religion should be irrelevant, but they aren't in this context, and that won't change. They are subjects to be looked into, not issues to be raised.

Age difference is simply one of the clues used, rather unscientifically of course, to raise questions about the real nature of a relationship. Though it's not talked about much, our consulates often have some sort of field intelligence on an applicant before the actual interview. In this case, no denial has occurred, and so far as anyone can tell, the only source of concern is the conduct of the interview and the refusal to grant the visa immediately.

[morocco4ever 63]

Didn't you have a previous situation with bringing over another husband on a visa? If so, this could factor in as well.

[verde 0]

Don't overestimate the factor of age difference in making decisions like this. An applicant for a visa has no civil rights under U.S. law, since there is no right to immigrate. There is no violation of any due process standard or any other international convention that can be applied here. I agree that age should be irrelevant, but it's not and that's not going to change. Race and religion should be irrelevant, but they aren't in this context, and that won't change. They are subjects to be looked into, not issues to be raised.

Age difference is simply one of the clues used, rather unscientifically of course, to raise questions about the real nature of a relationship. Though it's not talked about much, our consulates often have some sort of field intelligence on an applicant before the actual interview. In this case, no denial has occurred, and so far as anyone can tell, the only source of concern is the conduct of the interview and the refusal to grant the visa immediately.

Well, I for one and lots of progressive, politically active and socially conscious people are hoping for an end to all discrimination. My husband was in the U.S. for five years on student and work visas, where he obtained a business degree and work experience. He has no questionable or criminal history. Everyone is overlooking the fact that not all Consular Officers are honest, polite, appropriate, or follow the rules. I mean, there are nice officers and mean ones, easy ones and hard ones, fair and unfair ones, etc. It's the luck of the draw. I wasn't present at the interview, so I don't know what happened, but I do trust my husband to tell me the truth (he's never lied to me), so I believe him. When our visa is approved, can I at least come back and say "I told you so?" : ) , because I feel like you are insinuating that my husband did something wrong at the interview. Anyway, I am getting lots of mixed messages. I hear, any age difference triggers AR. I hear all men from the UAE get an AR. I hear "Well you must not have submitted the correct forms". I don't know why they asked for an AR, or why they gave us wrong directions, or why they verbally changed the I94. I'm lost as far as all of this. I am giving them what they are asking for and will keep giving it, but even after we get our visa I plan to work to reform our immigration system so people aren't treated unfairly or discriminated against for what would be unlawful reasons in the U.S.. I get your point - I hear you - I just don't agree. And I think it's good sometimes, to agree to disagree. Thanks for the thought provoking post.

[verde 0]

verde -

You made a remark in a past thread about how people who file K1 visas are bringing over "strangers." Isn't that the same stereotyping that you rail against re. ageism? (I mean, /my/ hubby came over here on a K1 but we lived together for nearly 3 years beforehand. Not two months.)

If I recall correctly, which I may not, I made that remark in response to someone who accused me of marrying my husband only five months ago and already trying to bring him to the U.S. to live with me. I don't want to argue over it. I was just using an example, and trying to make a point that it is normal, I think, to want to bring your spouse "home" as quickly as possible. If I did stereotype with malicious intent, I apologize. That would be wrong, for sure.

I was very upset and emotional at the time.

I think you're the person who told me to get therapy, aren't you? Let's just call a truce, how about it? Insulting anyone here isn't getting any of us anywhere.

Edited November 16, 2009 by verde