Posting grievances publicly

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Moderators used to treat the membership with respect. This is no longer the case.

This is true.

[mox 298]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=3490712

Yeah, saw that. Unprofessional but not surprising nor unexpected. Underscores the "vocal minority's" point perfectly.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=3490712

Yeah, saw that. Unprofessional but not surprising nor unexpected. Underscores the "vocal minority's" point perfectly.

The mods seem to have developed an "us vs them" mentality when it comes to us members of the vocal minority.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I understand your point on the best way to contact me. That said, the "report" form specifically says,

8<... <snipped for brevity>

And I'm saying that pm is the de facto method of private communication on VJ. Of the entire membership (moderators included), you are the only person who has an alternate contact method that works better than the primary means of contact.

To make matters worse, pm'ing you actually works mechanically and with no warning, giving somebody who's never cared to peruse contact methods in the TOS or get themselves suspended, the somewhat mistaken belief that they may actually be contacting you. So yes, going forward I and anybody else who cares to read this thread will understand the arcana that there's a good way to contact you, and there's a roll-the-dice way to contact you. For most others they are going to just naturally press the pm button because that's just how you do it. Stubbornly adhering to your alternate method of contact does not change that reality. (proof here is that you seem to get many more pm's than emails. Why do you suppose that is?)

Agree to most in theory -- people are human and mods try their best... so there is nothing perfect (which I hope you can understand).

Of course. I'm not talking about one-off instances where people make human mistakes. I'm talking about a trend of pervasive behavior.

@"pseudo-corp-speak", sometimes we do not have the time to write 10 page detailed replies but do consider the issue just the same...

Come on, this is not at all what I'm asking for. When a person resorts to corp-speak, it's almost always because they don't want to deal with the real issue, preferring instead to hide behind the organizational umbrella in some misguided notion that if they sound official, then the member will be soothed into thinking there's some big organization effort going on behind their back. It doesn't work. I do concede that this isn't something you can really control that well ("don't speak corporate speak" would be a strange directive), but a good moderator should know when they're doing it, and a really good moderator should know that it's not helpful.

@"mods should set example in their post"... sure then I agree, but if they simply have humor you disagree with and is not a TOS violation then that is a personal disagreement you may have with them and what you think should be on VJ versus what is in the TOS.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh...so you did finally get my appeal. (<snark>whining in public appears to be a 3rd, albeit slower, contact method!</snark>) And you're doing the same thing the original moderator did. It was never about my personal tastes versus the poster's tastes. Quite frankly, I can be *much* filthier and more offensive than the poster could ever even hope to be, so I'm even slightly offended that my personal tastes could be called into question on this. The post *was* a TOS violation, and I copied and pasted the exact section of the TOS that was violated. If you choose to interpret the TOS in a particular forum "loosely" then just say that: "Yes it's a TOS violation, but the violation occurred in a part of the forum that we mostly don't enforce the TOS." And then we can have a rational discussion about how enforcing a single TOS one way for one forum and another way for other forums is a horrible idea and should be reviewed.

@"snark remarks", sure they shouald not be doing this when moderating.

See? That was easy!

@"direct the mods to not", I always have... you seem to imply I have not.

I am implying only what I observe. Moderators used to treat the membership with respect. This is no longer the case. Whether you're not leading, or they're not following, I have no way of knowing. But what I do know is that you have consistently side-stepped my and others' concerns about the moderator's behavior. Your most recent responses are most welcome, but you still aren't addressing the moderator behavior problems, other than to say "people are human." (and I'm not talking about your choice of regional moderator, that's a completely different conversation and one I've conceded) You of all people know that I've got a pretty lengthy history of supporting the moderating team. I've even formed friendships with some of the moderators *after* and while they were moderators. So my issues aren't with authority or just to be disruptive. My concerns are real, with an eye towards the betterment of the site. You've said you want "matter of fact, no nonsense" conversation, so I'm giving it to you now. I prefer to keep it light-hearted, but if direct works better then I can be direct too. I'm just looking for acknowledgment of the problem, a promise for change, and timely results.

First Mox, I appreciate your opinions on these issues. Your feedback is always accepted. To be fair, I know you have strong opinions -- and that is good. But just because your opinions are strong does not by that virtue alone mean that they are always correct nor that I will agree with them. Sometimes I do -- sometimes I do not.

As for you saying I get more PM's then emails -- if you remove all the "reported threads" (which go to the mods and myself too -- but the mods usually take care of these and escalate to me when needed) I would say that the ratio is not as lopsided as you think. People are welcome to PM me directly however (and I wont argue this further) every official method listed on the site for various reasons says to use the contact us form. I will even go to the length to update my signature on the forums right now and add that to it (saying so).

As for the "corporate speak". I agree and disagree as well. Having a unified voice on certain issues (no matter how mechanical it is) is important in some aspects. If we seem to reply back using business speak sometimes then that is because we / the mods want to keep things professional. There is the downside of sounding like a robot (and certainly times to not be this way) but there is discretion to be both ways.

As for OT TOS enforcement, the forum description says, "Anything (well almost) that you need to say you can say here.". I guess I would be willing to stamp something out more official however the concept of Off Topic is not unique to VJ and is well understood on the web to be a bit more lively.

You said you want "acknowledgment of the problem, a promise for change, and timely results". Well in some areas I agree that we can improve certain things and I am already trying to as a result of your feedback (ex: the deputy mod trial -- which has worked and is now being expanded to the upper forums). There are other areas where I disagree with your assessment(s) so I do not plan to promise to change those (certainly you can not expect we will see eye to eye on everything as I am not you). On the things that you have raised that I agree with (in part of full) then certainly you can expect action.

I also as a last note want to point out that for every example you point to where a mod was not perfect I can also point to another thread where they have done an outstanding job -- in fact the overwhelming percent of feedback I get is "good" for the general membership. Have mods messed up (even badly) -- sure. If the mods do mess up do I correct them -- yep. If they go ape #$@# will they get demoted -- you bet. If a mod is trending in a bad direction and my efforts to correct them fail will I ask that they step down -- absolutely. Do I think that the vast majority of the time they are doing a great job (that you probably never see or hear about) -- totally.

[Krikit 1,164]

If they go ape #$@# will they get demoted --you bet.

* scratches plan to go ape #$@# *

[mox 298]

First Mox, I appreciate your opinions on these issues. Your feedback is always accepted. To be fair, I know you have strong opinions -- and that is good. But just because your opinions are strong does not by that virtue alone mean that they are always correct nor that I will agree with them. Sometimes I do -- sometimes I do not.

I've never asked you to agree with my opinions, although it sure would be nice if you did. I have, however, asked that you address facts when I and others have presented them. (for example, the link RJ posted. Is this an example of a moderator acting professionally?)

As for you saying I get more PM's then emails -- if you remove all the "reported threads" (which go to the mods and myself too -- but the mods usually take care of these and escalate to me when needed) I would say that the ratio is not as lopsided as you think. People are welcome to PM me directly however (and I wont argue this further) every official method listed on the site for various reasons says to use the contact us form. I will even go to the length to update my signature on the forums right now and add that to it (saying so).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then, but it's pretty shoddy from a customer service standpoint to have two different contact methods, one of which may or may not be read. At the very least, disable the ability to PM you.

As for the "corporate speak". I agree and disagree as well. Having a unified voice on certain issues (no matter how mechanical it is) is important in some aspects. If we seem to reply back using business speak sometimes then that is because we / the mods want to keep things professional. There is the downside of sounding like a robot (and certainly times to not be this way) but there is discretion to be both ways.

The "corp speak" of which I speak is in lieu of being helpful. For example, if I am reporting a TOS violation and then I'm told that if the adult nature of the content offends me I should read another thread, and I'm then told "we take your concerns seriously blah blah blah..." that just tells me the moderator had no interest in dealing with me and it's time to drag out the template. Professionalism is a good thing. It is, in fact, the one thing I've been crabbing on about. Just don't try to push me off with fake professionalism.

As for OT TOS enforcement, the forum description says, "Anything (well almost) that you need to say you can say here.". I guess I would be willing to stamp something out more official however the concept of Off Topic is not unique to VJ and is well understood on the web to be a bit more lively.

The forum description is not binding. The TOS *is* binding. The regional forums description includes the phrase "Have fun!", but I don't think it's a requirement.

The concept of Off Topic is not unique to VJ, of course. But every other site with an OT forum either has a specific TOS addressing OT behavior, or expects the OT forum to conform to the normal TOS. No other site I've ever been a part of has such a free-wheeling interpretation. I honestly can't believe your moderators haven't been hounding you to death to clean up that problem. It's what started this whole discussion in the first place.

You said you want "acknowledgment of the problem, a promise for change, and timely results". Well in some areas I agree that we can improve certain things and I am already trying to as a result of your feedback (ex: the deputy mod trial -- which has worked and is now being expanded to the upper forums). There are other areas where I disagree with your assessment(s) so I do not plan to promise to change those (certainly you can not expect we will see eye to eye on everything as I am not you). On the things that you have raised that I agree with (in part of full) then certainly you can expect action.

As I said, I don't expect you to agree with every one of my opinions. If it were only my opinion that the moderation here has been lacking, I'd just keep my mouth shut. So when I say that the moderation has been terrible, it's because there's a written record of it. I'm not saying the moderating has been terrible just because I have some personal grudge against a select group of people who happen to be moderators. I've shown it. And others have shown it. And when you picked a moderator who has shown over and over and over that he lacks every single characteristic that a moderator should be chosen for, I backed that up, and then you said you saw something nebulous and undefinable in his character and to give him a chance. And now, according to your post a few back, we're back to selecting moderators based on actual definable criteria. So I'm not expecting you to agree with my opinions, I'm just expecting some kind of rational cause and effect, and maybe even some consistency.

I also as a last note want to point out that for every example you point to where a mod was not perfect I can also point to another thread where they have done an outstanding job -- in fact the overwhelming percent of feedback I get is "good" for the general membership.

Interesting. Because I don't see a lot of moderator defending going on in this thread, but I do see an undercurrent of general overall unhappiness with the way moderation is handled on the site. The people who were defending Charles in the previous thread were almost exclusively his personal friends from OT who couldn't come up with anything better than "give him a chance, he might not fail." Kathryn sees "the same names" griping about the moderators, but I wonder why that would be. Has she or any of the other moderators really tried to engage me or others in constructive dialog? (No.) Oh, they show up from time to time to defend themselves, but I've yet to see one of them drop into one of these threads and give any kind of acknowledgment that improvements could be made. Your moderators (with a single notable exception) have circled the wagons and taken on an "us versus them" mentality. And while I can pretty much bet there's some discussion about all this going on behind the scenes, I can also pretty much bet that not a whit of it is being spent taking these concerns seriously. And that should really be your first clue. If you (generic you) can't handle criticism with anything but defense, then there's probably something to the criticism.

Have mods messed up (even badly) -- sure. If the mods do mess up do I correct them -- yep. If they go ape #$@# will they get demoted -- you bet. If a mod is trending in a bad direction and my efforts to correct them fail will I ask that they step down -- absolutely. Do I think that the vast majority of the time they are doing a great job (that you probably never see or hear about) -- totally.

Locking a thread as the first resort is not a "great job." Being snarky and rude to the membership is not a "great job." Treating the membership like savages outside the green zone is not a "great job." Going about doing normal moderator things isn't a "great job," it's the expected job. "Great" moderation involves actual hands-on moderation and heading off most problems before they become problems. It means treating the members (even those you don't like) with respect and dignity. It means being able to admit when you've made a mistake, instead of trying to avoid responsibility.

You used to have a great moderation team in place. I don't know how much of that was just good luck and how much of that was your ability to spot talent and/or direct, but I wish we had that again.

[Marilyn. 340]

as far as I know VJ is not a professional setting .. it is just a site where people help other people out

and anyways I don't see Kathryn's remarks as "unprofessional" she was just stating her opinion

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

You used to have a great moderation team in place.

[rebeccajo 14]

as far as I know VJ is not a professional setting .. it is just a site where people help other people out

and anyways I don't see Kathryn's remarks as "unprofessional" she was just stating her opinion

Marilyn -

If you take on a position within an organization, you can't always 'just state your opinion' - if you want to keep the position, that it. Not being mean or argumentative to you, but that's just the way things work.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

You used to have a great moderation team in place.

Sorry to hear that you are not happy with things compared to before. Certainly though I am always making organic changes to improve the moderation. I am sure before there were those that did not like it and now do and vice versa. No one will be happy always -- and there is no way I can make everyone happy myself either. All that said, I am again in the process of some good changes that everyone here can at least agree will benefit everyone (good solid deputy mods int he upper forums). And back to Mox on the Regional Forums Deputy mod. Despite the criticism that you and a few others had (very strong) initially, I am happy to say that this has worked out quite well so far. Regardless of the assumption of "failure" I think the Regional Forums are better off than before now.

[Marilyn. 340]

as far as I know VJ is not a professional setting .. it is just a site where people help other people out

and anyways I don't see Kathryn's remarks as "unprofessional" she was just stating her opinion

Marilyn -

If you take on a position within an organization, you can't always 'just state your opinion' - if you want to keep the position, that it. Not being mean or argumentative to you, but that's just the way things work.

I am still trying to figure out what she said that was so wrong...

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Interesting. Because I don't see a lot of moderator defending going on in this thread

Most people only speak up to complain (this is unfortunately true). I do get lots of good feedback via PM and email from time to time and if you take away the people participating in this thread, I rarely get any serious complaints on the moderation; not to say that you or people in this thread are wrong -- just that I don't get many other complaints about the moderation from other people on a frequent basis. This said, I can agree there are areas that can be improved and we haev talked about several in this thread.... a good thing . I will also admit errors are occasionally made by mods and myself but this is not necessarily a sign of people doing things bad or disingenuous on purpose -- it is just human.

[Marilyn. 340]

as for other mods being so much better then the curent mods.. they had thier fair share of haters too..

why do you think most of them aren't mods anymore??

[rebeccajo 14]

as far as I know VJ is not a professional setting .. it is just a site where people help other people out

and anyways I don't see Kathryn's remarks as "unprofessional" she was just stating her opinion

Marilyn -

If you take on a position within an organization, you can't always 'just state your opinion' - if you want to keep the position, that it. Not being mean or argumentative to you, but that's just the way things work.

I am still trying to figure out what she said that was so wrong...

Because it's snarky? Because it's dismissive?

[Marilyn. 340]

this isn't some professional organization.. it is a message board...

and it isn't like Kathryn named names or anything she was just making a comment based on her experience as mod.. I didn't see it as snarky at all...