Posting grievances publicly

[mox 298]

Just to get back to my original points, Ewok...

Do you agree that the moderation team needs to handle concerns in good faith rather than issuing the party line via pseudo-corp-speak? Do you agree that moderators need to distance themselves from personal biases when handling an issue? Do you agree that moderators need to set the example for other members in their own posts? Do you agree that moderators should handle the membership with courtesy and respect rather than snark and dismissive remarks? And will you agree to direct your moderating team to change their moderating methodologies to incorporate these policies?

I also want to make the point that using the alternate Blackberry channel to escalate issues to you is both unintuitive and inconvenient for the majority of the user base. The PM system is the de facto standard for private communication on VJ. It's not fair to expect the membership to communicate with the moderators using one channel, and to communicate with you via another channel. (in fact, most members are not reading this thread, and will not be privy to this best way to contact you) It's not fair for you to brush members off with "sorry I get too many pm's and some get lost." Your moderators don't seem to have a problem losing pm's, and your moderators aren't telling us to use an alternate communications channel if we want to make sure our issues are heard. Your inability to manage your pm's shouldn't be our problem. You have access to the source code, re-route your pm's to your Blackberry if that's what it takes. But if you're serious about being the *only* avenue of appeal then you need to be accessible via the most common route.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this please.

[rebeccajo 14]

Just to get back to my original points, Ewok...

Do you agree that the moderation team needs to handle concerns in good faith rather than issuing the party line via pseudo-corp-speak? Do you agree that moderators need to distance themselves from personal biases when handling an issue? Do you agree that moderators need to set the example for other members in their own posts? Do you agree that moderators should handle the membership with courtesy and respect rather than snark and dismissive remarks? And will you agree to direct your moderating team to change their moderating methodologies to incorporate these policies?

I also want to make the point that using the alternate Blackberry channel to escalate issues to you is both unintuitive and inconvenient for the majority of the user base. The PM system is the de facto standard for private communication on VJ. It's not fair to expect the membership to communicate with the moderators using one channel, and to communicate with you via another channel. (in fact, most members are not reading this thread, and will not be privy to this best way to contact you) It's not fair for you to brush members off with "sorry I get too many pm's and some get lost." Your moderators don't seem to have a problem losing pm's, and your moderators aren't telling us to use an alternate communications channel if we want to make sure our issues are heard. Your inability to manage your pm's shouldn't be our problem. You have access to the source code, re-route your pm's to your Blackberry if that's what it takes. But if you're serious about being the *only* avenue of appeal then you need to be accessible via the most common route.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this please.

Mox -

I presume you realize that when things get 'difficult' between a member and a Mod, the method of resolution is the Mod stays away from the member.

I don't know about you, but IMO this is very 'grade school'. If the Mod can't handle it, get out of the kitchen altogether.

As far as communications, I might suggest a time of the week where members and Mods could join in a chat room. The function already exists on the site. This might help clear the air. It could be once a week or more often; involve one Mod at a time or several. If the Mods don't want to be held to - say - every Monday at 8pm eastern - then times could be scheduled and posted in this forum a few days before the event.

I don't like the PM system at all for resolution of conflict. This is a public forum. Chat is 'live' and IMO gives people the opportunity to act more as they would face to face. Rather than PM's, I might suggest a system where the Mod asks members to a private chat room while an 'altercation' is going on. For the record, let me say I don't advocate these methods for 'drama'. I truly believe problems can be better solved this way. I don't like AT ALL being told to take it to PM - that sounds like your mother talking. It kind of goes along the lines of what I THINK you are saying - there's a difference between diplomacy and dismisiveness.

Edited November 14, 2009 by rebeccajo

[mox 298]

I presume you realize that when things get 'difficult' between a member and a Mod, the method of resolution is the Mod stays away from the member.

I don't know about you, but IMO this is very 'grade school'. If the Mod can't handle it, get out of the kitchen altogether.

I'm actually talking about dealings with members in general. For example, a moderator might not like you personally, or you might exist outside of that particular moderators group of friends. Or they just don't like your stance on a particular topic. I would expect a moderator to set those prejudices aside when moderating an issue.

When a moderator and a member have a problem with each other, that's when it's time to escalate.

Re your chat suggestion: anything to make the moderators more accessible and more accountable is fine in my book. But I would hope that members would comport themselves in the same professional manner that I'm asking the moderators to comport themselves to.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

Just to get back to my original points, Ewok...

Do you agree that the moderation team needs to handle concerns in good faith rather than issuing the party line via pseudo-corp-speak? Do you agree that moderators need to distance themselves from personal biases when handling an issue? Do you agree that moderators need to set the example for other members in their own posts? Do you agree that moderators should handle the membership with courtesy and respect rather than snark and dismissive remarks? And will you agree to direct your moderating team to change their moderating methodologies to incorporate these policies?

I also want to make the point that using the alternate Blackberry channel to escalate issues to you is both unintuitive and inconvenient for the majority of the user base. The PM system is the de facto standard for private communication on VJ. It's not fair to expect the membership to communicate with the moderators using one channel, and to communicate with you via another channel. (in fact, most members are not reading this thread, and will not be privy to this best way to contact you) It's not fair for you to brush members off with "sorry I get too many pm's and some get lost." Your moderators don't seem to have a problem losing pm's, and your moderators aren't telling us to use an alternate communications channel if we want to make sure our issues are heard. Your inability to manage your pm's shouldn't be our problem. You have access to the source code, re-route your pm's to your Blackberry if that's what it takes. But if you're serious about being the *only* avenue of appeal then you need to be accessible via the most common route.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this please.

I understand your point on the best way to contact me. That said, the "report" form specifically says,

Notice: Your report will be sent to the Moderation Team. To contact the Admin, please use the <a href='http://www.visajourney.com/contact'>contact form</a> for the fastest response.

Enter your report

Please note: The moderator will be made aware of the link to the post and the topic title.

This form is to be used ONLY for reporting objectionable content, etc and is not to be used as a method of communicating with moderators for other reasons.

When a member gets a suspension they get an email that says,

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on <#EXTRA#>. If you wish to dispute the suspension you may <a href='http://www.visajourney.com/contact'>contact the administration</a>.

Additionally the email will include information provided by the moderator on the suspension.

Further, the TOS says (with hyperlinks to the contact us page),

Moderators. The term moderator refers to a member at VisaJourney.com that has the following additional "moderation" abilities to interact on the discussion forums compared to non-moderator members: Closing Topics, Moving Topics, Temporarily Removing Topics or Posts from Public View and Temporarily Limiting Access to the discussion forums by other members. These additional abilities are only used when when a Moderator believes that a member's activity or Posted content on the discussion forums does not comply with the VisaJourney.com TOS. VisaJourney.com does not actively monitor the use of these "moderation" abilities by Moderators, however if a member disagrees with a Moderators use of these "moderation" abilities they may contact VisaJourney.com and request that the Moderators actions be reviewed. The final decision on whether to reverse or alter a Moderator's action(s) will be decided at the sole discretion of VisaJourney.com.

Any user who feels any Content of the Service is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by visiting the 'contact us' section. In particular, Members are encouraged to report objectionable Content on the Forums by use of the Report feature (a link to the Report feature is below each Post in the Forums). We have the ability to remove objectionable Content and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

... and in many other locations. I am not sure how much more (for admin related contact info) that I can point to the contact us page. I know many of you in this post like to PM me, however plenty of people do email me using the form 6-8 per day do. Like I said, I do check PM's but there is a reason I specifically is ALL the above places ask that people (for those important matters) use the contact form.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

When a moderator and a member have a problem with each other, that's when it's time to escalate.

Correct, but also when this happens the moderator may be asked by the admin (or self imposed) to delegate moderation to a different moderator or escalate to the admin. @RJ, this is when you said I was a grade school kid to have a mod and member not chat. Specifically I am asking them to remove the conflict of interest and pass the moderation of such cases to another mod or myself. I consider this good -- but if you disagree I respect that. If you think that people can turn off emotion with a switch I will disagree -- people can suppress emotion but it will always be there. With sufficient resources (mods and myself) delegation to remove a conflict of interest is good IMO. Again I appreciate you thinking this is wrong but respectfully that is my decision at this point.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

Do you agree that the moderation team needs to handle concerns in good faith rather than issuing the party line via pseudo-corp-speak? Do you agree that moderators need to distance themselves from personal biases when handling an issue? Do you agree that moderators need to set the example for other members in their own posts? Do you agree that moderators should handle the membership with courtesy and respect rather than snark and dismissive remarks? And will you agree to direct your moderating team to change their moderating methodologies to incorporate these policies?

Agree to most in theory -- people are human and mods try their best... so there is nothing perfect (which I hope you can understand). @"pseudo-corp-speak", sometimes we do not have the time to write 10 page detailed replies but do consider the issue just the same... @"mods should set example in their post"... sure then I agree, but if they simply have humor you disagree with and is not a TOS violation then that is a personal disagreement you may have with them and what you think should be on VJ versus what is in the TOS. @"snark remarks", sure they should not be doing this when moderating. @"direct the mods to not", I always have... you seem to imply I have not.

[LaL 418]

I don't consider it grade school for a mod to refrain from being involved in a possible situation with a member. There were several people I chose not to mod (and I am fairly certain they appreciated) due to personality conflicts with them. Rather than be accused of biased modding - I simply let another mod assess the situation. Worked out well for my class of modding.

[rebeccajo 14]

When a moderator and a member have a problem with each other, that's when it's time to escalate.

Correct, but also when this happens the moderator may be asked by the admin (or self imposed) to delegate moderation to a different moderator or escalate to the admin. @RJ, this is when you said I was a grade school kid to have a mod and member not chat. Specifically I am asking them to remove the conflict of interest and pass the moderation of such cases to another mod or myself. I consider this good -- but if you disagree I respect that. If you think that people can turn off emotion with a switch I will disagree -- people can suppress emotion but it will always be there. With sufficient resources (mods and myself) delegation to remove a conflict of interest is good IMO. Again I appreciate you thinking this is wrong but respectfully that is my decision at this point.

Captain - I didn't say you were a 'grade school kid'. I said handling things this way is 'grade school'. There's a difference. It's the method I have a problem with - not you or others.

I don't consider it grade school for a mod to refrain from being involved in a possible situation with a member. There were several people I chose not to mod (and I am fairly certain they appreciated) due to personality conflicts with them. Rather than be accused of biased modding - I simply let another mod assess the situation. Worked out well for my class of modding.

I guess I just think if you are going to Mod you should be willing to accept all the responsibilities. We don't get to 'pick and choose' who we have to interact with in life.

But then again, this isn't a 'paid' job. *I tend to think of moderating on Vj as a job, much as I do when I am posting information*

[LaL 418]

It's not a bad thing to admit that one cannot possibly be 100% impartial and therefore discuss or request another person less involved take a look at it. I did the same thing with my close friends - I did not mod them. It was just a simple solution to avoid conflict of interest.

ETA: this was done very infrequently in rare circumstances - just for clarification.

Edited November 14, 2009 by LaL

[rebeccajo 14]

It's not a bad thing to admit that one cannot possibly be 100% impartial and therefore discuss or request another person less involved take a look at it. I did the same thing with my close friends - I did not mod them. It was just a simple solution to avoid conflict of interest.

ETA: this was done very infrequently in rare circumstances - just for clarification.

I can definitely understanding stepping away from moderation of friends.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

It's not a bad thing to admit that one cannot possibly be 100% impartial and therefore discuss or request another person less involved take a look at it. I did the same thing with my close friends - I did not mod them. It was just a simple solution to avoid conflict of interest.

ETA: this was done very infrequently in rare circumstances - just for clarification.

I can definitely understanding stepping away from moderation of friends.

I will have to agree to disagree. When a mod feels that they can not be fully objective on a specific issue and that another mod can (be more effective) or the admin (for whatever reason) then I fully support them passing a decision off. this does not happen a lot. It is fair to the members when it does though.

[rebeccajo 14]

It's not a bad thing to admit that one cannot possibly be 100% impartial and therefore discuss or request another person less involved take a look at it. I did the same thing with my close friends - I did not mod them. It was just a simple solution to avoid conflict of interest.

ETA: this was done very infrequently in rare circumstances - just for clarification.

I can definitely understanding stepping away from moderation of friends.

I will have to agree to disagree. When a mod feels that they can not be fully objective on a specific issue and that another mod can (be more effective) or the admin (for whatever reason) then I fully support them passing a decision off. this does not happen a lot. It is fair to the members when it does though.

LOL.....it ain't a fight. It's just my opinion.......

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

It's not a bad thing to admit that one cannot possibly be 100% impartial and therefore discuss or request another person less involved take a look at it. I did the same thing with my close friends - I did not mod them. It was just a simple solution to avoid conflict of interest.

ETA: this was done very infrequently in rare circumstances - just for clarification.

I can definitely understanding stepping away from moderation of friends.

I will have to agree to disagree. When a mod feels that they can not be fully objective on a specific issue and that another mod can (be more effective) or the admin (for whatever reason) then I fully support them passing a decision off. this does not happen a lot. It is fair to the members when it does though.

LOL.....it ain't a fight. It's just my opinion.......

Yep. Glad though that we were both able to discuss our perspectives constructively. I actually prefer matter of fact, no nonsense or attitude conversations. It makes it easier to make actionable changes based on feedback and constructive debate.

[mox 298]

I understand your point on the best way to contact me. That said, the "report" form specifically says,

8<... <snipped for brevity>

And I'm saying that pm is the de facto method of private communication on VJ. Of the entire membership (moderators included), you are the only person who has an alternate contact method that works better than the primary means of contact.

To make matters worse, pm'ing you actually works mechanically and with no warning, giving somebody who's never cared to peruse contact methods in the TOS or get themselves suspended, the somewhat mistaken belief that they may actually be contacting you. So yes, going forward I and anybody else who cares to read this thread will understand the arcana that there's a good way to contact you, and there's a roll-the-dice way to contact you. For most others they are going to just naturally press the pm button because that's just how you do it. Stubbornly adhering to your alternate method of contact does not change that reality. (proof here is that you seem to get many more pm's than emails. Why do you suppose that is?)

Agree to most in theory -- people are human and mods try their best... so there is nothing perfect (which I hope you can understand).

Of course. I'm not talking about one-off instances where people make human mistakes. I'm talking about a trend of pervasive behavior.

@"pseudo-corp-speak", sometimes we do not have the time to write 10 page detailed replies but do consider the issue just the same...

Come on, this is not at all what I'm asking for. When a person resorts to corp-speak, it's almost always because they don't want to deal with the real issue, preferring instead to hide behind the organizational umbrella in some misguided notion that if they sound official, then the member will be soothed into thinking there's some big organization effort going on behind their back. It doesn't work. I do concede that this isn't something you can really control that well ("don't speak corporate speak" would be a strange directive), but a good moderator should know when they're doing it, and a really good moderator should know that it's not helpful.

@"mods should set example in their post"... sure then I agree, but if they simply have humor you disagree with and is not a TOS violation then that is a personal disagreement you may have with them and what you think should be on VJ versus what is in the TOS.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh...so you did finally get my appeal. (<snark>whining in public appears to be a 3rd, albeit slower, contact method!</snark>) And you're doing the same thing the original moderator did. It was never about my personal tastes versus the poster's tastes. Quite frankly, I can be *much* filthier and more offensive than the poster could ever even hope to be, so I'm even slightly offended that my personal tastes could be called into question on this. The post *was* a TOS violation, and I copied and pasted the exact section of the TOS that was violated. If you choose to interpret the TOS in a particular forum "loosely" then just say that: "Yes it's a TOS violation, but the violation occurred in a part of the forum that we mostly don't enforce the TOS." And then we can have a rational discussion about how enforcing a single TOS one way for one forum and another way for other forums is a horrible idea and should be reviewed.

@"snark remarks", sure they shouald not be doing this when moderating.

See? That was easy!

@"direct the mods to not", I always have... you seem to imply I have not.

I am implying only what I observe. Moderators used to treat the membership with respect. This is no longer the case. Whether you're not leading, or they're not following, I have no way of knowing. But what I do know is that you have consistently side-stepped my and others' concerns about the moderator's behavior. Your most recent responses are most welcome, but you still aren't addressing the moderator behavior problems, other than to say "people are human." (and I'm not talking about your choice of regional moderator, that's a completely different conversation and one I've conceded) You of all people know that I've got a pretty lengthy history of supporting the moderating team. I've even formed friendships with some of the moderators *after* and while they were moderators. So my issues aren't with authority or just to be disruptive. My concerns are real, with an eye towards the betterment of the site. You've said you want "matter of fact, no nonsense" conversation, so I'm giving it to you now. I prefer to keep it light-hearted, but if direct works better then I can be direct too. I'm just looking for acknowledgment of the problem, a promise for change, and timely results.

Edited November 15, 2009 by mox

[rebeccajo 14]

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...t&p=3490712