Foolish friend wants to come to US on visitor visa & marry b/c fiancee won't fly to Morocco

[rebeccajo 14]

If this couple has never met.......

I don't see how there could possibly any misrepresentation involved - Morocco, Paris, Guatemala - wherever. Not at the consulate and not at adjustment of status.

Unless the traveler is already dead-set on marrying this woman he has never met before.

Did I miss where the OP said they'd never met? quite possible, there's several discussions taking place within the thread! lol..

The fact that the OP describes this guy's USC as his fiancee indicates there is a pre-existing intention to get married. The misrepresentation is when he applies for a visitor's visa to gain entry to the US for the express purpose of getting married and remaining (this is what the K1 is for, after all) and then potentially at the POE but only if they specifically ask him if he plans to marry his fiancee and he replies that he does not. And you don't have to be from a high risk country to be asked this!

Well I presume they've not met. The woman is supposed to be afraid of flying.

[KittyPollitt 284]

If this couple has never met.......

I don't see how there could possibly any misrepresentation involved - Morocco, Paris, Guatemala - wherever. Not at the consulate and not at adjustment of status.

Unless the traveler is already dead-set on marrying this woman he has never met before.

Did I miss where the OP said they'd never met? quite possible, there's several discussions taking place within the thread! lol..

The fact that the OP describes this guy's USC as his fiancee indicates there is a pre-existing intention to get married. The misrepresentation is when he applies for a visitor's visa to gain entry to the US for the express purpose of getting married and remaining (this is what the K1 is for, after all) and then potentially at the POE but only if they specifically ask him if he plans to marry his fiancee and he replies that he does not. And you don't have to be from a high risk country to be asked this!

Well I presume they've not met. The woman is supposed to be afraid of flying.

You are correct in your assumption that they have not met.. I guess he is dead-set on marrying her, (IMHO, I don't like the girl and I think it will turn out bad no matter what they do).. My question was basically regarding the legality of what he told me he planned to do, and what, if anything I could recommend he do in a legal way..

And I really appreciate everyone's help

[rebeccajo 14]

If this couple has never met.......

I don't see how there could possibly any misrepresentation involved - Morocco, Paris, Guatemala - wherever. Not at the consulate and not at adjustment of status.

Unless the traveler is already dead-set on marrying this woman he has never met before.

Did I miss where the OP said they'd never met? quite possible, there's several discussions taking place within the thread! lol..

The fact that the OP describes this guy's USC as his fiancee indicates there is a pre-existing intention to get married. The misrepresentation is when he applies for a visitor's visa to gain entry to the US for the express purpose of getting married and remaining (this is what the K1 is for, after all) and then potentially at the POE but only if they specifically ask him if he plans to marry his fiancee and he replies that he does not. And you don't have to be from a high risk country to be asked this!

Well I presume they've not met. The woman is supposed to be afraid of flying.

You are correct in your assumption that they have not met.. I guess he is dead-set on marrying her, (IMHO, I don't like the girl and I think it will turn out bad no matter what they do).. My question was basically regarding the legality of what he told me he planned to do, and what, if anything I could recommend he do in a legal way..

And I really appreciate everyone's help

Well then - given that - the whole thing goes beyond the realms of legality and into the realms of stupidity.

Really.

[KittyPollitt 284]

If this couple has never met.......

I don't see how there could possibly any misrepresentation involved - Morocco, Paris, Guatemala - wherever. Not at the consulate and not at adjustment of status.

Unless the traveler is already dead-set on marrying this woman he has never met before.

Did I miss where the OP said they'd never met? quite possible, there's several discussions taking place within the thread! lol..

The fact that the OP describes this guy's USC as his fiancee indicates there is a pre-existing intention to get married. The misrepresentation is when he applies for a visitor's visa to gain entry to the US for the express purpose of getting married and remaining (this is what the K1 is for, after all) and then potentially at the POE but only if they specifically ask him if he plans to marry his fiancee and he replies that he does not. And you don't have to be from a high risk country to be asked this!

Well I presume they've not met. The woman is supposed to be afraid of flying.

You are correct in your assumption that they have not met.. I guess he is dead-set on marrying her, (IMHO, I don't like the girl and I think it will turn out bad no matter what they do).. My question was basically regarding the legality of what he told me he planned to do, and what, if anything I could recommend he do in a legal way..

And I really appreciate everyone's help

Well then - given that - the whole thing goes beyond the realms of legality and into the realms of stupidity.

Really.

it sucks to watch good people do stupid sh#t

[belinda63 3,047]

Rich man wants to come to US on tourist visa to marry someone he never met (using the fastest route possible) to obtain a green card.

Not a new story.

[Brit Abroad 166]

Am I the only person who thinks she should drive up to Canada and have him meet her there?

Not flying is not a justification for not travelling. If she's not prepared to put in some effort to meet the K1 requirements, then how much commitment can she really have?

[AlHayatZween 2]

It's hard to get tourist visas to Canada also, no?

Good idea, if possible.

[SunDrop 59]

Am I the only person who thinks she should drive up to Canada and have him meet her there?

Not flying is not a justification for not travelling. If she's not prepared to put in some effort to meet the K1 requirements, then how much commitment can she really have?

What woman in her right mind, truly, marries a man she's never met before? I think the combination of his wealth and her employment status is going to stink more than unpasteurised cheese of a marriage of convenience. He obviously assumes that he can buy his way to anything

I really do pray to the Gods that they get called out on this. If they are successful, it puts the whole of the USCIS and visa process to complete shame.

Hey USCIS people! Read this thread! Look out for an umemployed USC with 2 kids adjusting status for a rich Moroccan dude on a visitor's visa who married having only just met.

Makes my blood boil.... and that's not hating. Kudos to those who are genuinely in love and ballsy enough to VWP/ visitor visa and adjust.

[Jenn! 918]

What woman in her right mind, truly, marries a man she's never met before?

It's really quite common in relationships on VJ - especially when the beneficiary is from a country not on the VWP.

[sachinky 465]

Ok. I'm confused. And let me see if I understand this.

It is not illegal to enter on a tourist visa and get married and adjust status if you had no previous intention to do so.

Eg: Visiting your boyfriend in the US on a tourist visa, he proposes, you guys go down to the court house and get married. And then file the paperwork.

You may also enter on a tourist visa and get married and then leave to file the CR1/K3.

Eg: You say you're gonna get married on the forms/POE to your fiancee/girlfriend and will leave once your NOA2 is given/or your tourist visa expires whichever is first. And you do just that and wait while your IV gets processed.

However, to enter on a tourist with previous intention to get married/file AOS is illegal?

I'm guessing this previous intent is what is hard to prove.

As long as you don't lie on the forms/POE, you're good to go?

I'm guessing if you have a spontaneous Vegas chapel wedding it's okay. But an elaborate white wedding just doesn't seem very spontaneous, does it?

Do I understand this information correctly? Yes or no?

Edited November 10, 2009 by sachinky

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Love isn't the only "legitimate" reason to get married, and love is not required for a bona fide relationship, per the USCIS definition.

I remember seeing something on several of the zillions of forms we filled out explaining the required documentation if the petitioner and beneficiary have not met (presumably because of an arranged marriage situation). That this is included in the forms suggests that it's not uncommon. It would be interesting to know the statistics.

I agree that this particular situation sounds tricky, but it's for the USCIS to sort out, if it even gets to that.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't know about India, but Morocco, the country the OP's friend's SO is from, is a high fraud consulate where many of the men petitioning for spousal visas fall under the scrutiny of the Patriot Act. It is recommended that persons seeking to obtain a spousal visa thru Morocco operate under the premise that fraudulant motives will be assumed by the CO, and that any attempts to circumvent the proper immigration procedural order will arouse suspicion. That is why people who have gone thru Morocco are less inclined to advise couples to take risks that only heighten their chances of failure.

Besides, because Morocco is classified as a suspect nation, it is very difficult for Muslim men, 18 - 35, to obtain a tourist visa.

Ok. I'm confused. And let me see if I understand this.

It is not illegal to enter on a tourist visa and get married and adjust status if you had no previous intention to do so.

Eg: Visiting your boyfriend in the US on a tourist visa, he proposes, you guys go down to the court house and get married. And then file the paperwork.

You may also enter on a tourist visa and get married and then leave to file the CR1/K3.

Eg: You say you're gonna get married on the forms/POE to your fiancee/girlfriend and will leave once your NOA2 is given/or your tourist visa expires whichever is first. And you do just that and wait while your IV gets processed.

However, to enter on a tourist with previous intention to get married/file AOS is illegal?

I'm guessing this previous intent is what is hard to prove.

As long as you don't lie on the forms/POE, you're good to go?

I'm guessing if you have a spontaneous Vegas chapel wedding it's okay. But an elaborate white wedding just doesn't seem very spontaneous, does it?

Do I understand this information correctly? Yes or no?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What woman in her right mind, truly, marries a man she's never met before?

It's really quite common in relationships on VJ - especially when the beneficiary is from a country not on the VWP.

It's very common on this board due to the time, expense and cultural obstacles involved.

[rsn 135]

OK, I've read the thread you pointed us to.

I realise that I was wrong in thinking that the AOS petitioner/beneficiary have the onus to prove that there was no intent.

To be honest, however, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes on the rest of it because the fact is that the OP stated this friend of hers intends to materially misrepresent himself twice in order to marry his USC fiancee.

Ergo, yes, it is possible to AOS from a visitor's visa successfully even when you have material misrepresentation involved and yes, many do successfully.

However, it is fraud and there is always a risk, especially when dealing with a MENA beneficiary.

I take issue but honestly, am big and bad enough to move on from, being accused of 'spewing information on a public board' when my only inaccuracy was stating the onus of proof is on the petitioning couple. Is there really any need to be so patronising?

You need stop and think about your reply you gave in response to my last post. You Highlighted the Immidiate Relative in red and said that he is not the immidiate relative so that does not apply... He may not be a immidiate relative when he gets his tourist visa or when he arrives at POE but he will be 100% immidiate relative after they marry and apply for AOS/I-130. And as an immidiate relitive he will not be diened because he entered on a tourist visa or VWP.

It is also up to USCIS to prove that there was intent not the applicant.

Should the OP's friend plan to enter on a tourist visa and then get married and remain? I would say no it would be better for him to apply for a K1 visa given all the dificulties that are involved with a MENA Consulate. That does not change the fact that a person can adjust their status legally from a tourist visa or VWP.

I haven't ever said that it's impossible to adjust status legally, please do check back my posts if you are so inclined!

To add to the confusion, I just read the non-immigrant services document from the USCIS and found the following in the B, WB, and WT visas section:

Can my status in these categories ever be a basis to become a permanent resident?

No. In fact, to be eligible under these categories you must have definite plans to depart the U.S. and return to your residence abroad.

We all know this isn't true because it has been done in the past (many times). Thanks to the govt for making yet another issue confusing.

[venusfire503 54]

Wow - lots of different subtopics here! It gets confusing after a while, especially when one has other things preoccupying the brain.....

It IS illegal to come on a visitor's visa with the prior intent of getting married AND staying and adjusting status after putting another reason on the form - and I believe someone showed that it IS asked on the form the reason for the visa request (and I don't know that they'll give anyone from ANY country a visitor visa if "marrying and adjusting status" is written in there). If I remember correctly, you're also asked when traveling your reason(s) for the visit - on paper, as well as in person. Yes, it might be hard to prove prior intent one way or the other, but honestly, who wants the hassle? And if determined to be guilty, whether actually guilty or not, it can really complicate both lives. Besides, here on VJ, we don't advise people to break the law.

The part that makes this a MENA topic and not just a general one is the fact that it is nearly impossible for a young Moroccan male to get a visitor's visa. Period. If you could find a young Moroccan male who did or will get one, I'd be somewhat surprised. If you can show me one who did it while admitting he intends to come here to get married and stay and adjust status, I'll be shocked. To put it mildly. Just attempting to do it would be foolish.

IF he managed to get a visitor's visa, and ended up coming here, getting married, and filing to adjust status, I'd be willing to bet he'd come under some serious scrutiny - more than the couple who does this from VWP or a visa from a less 'suspected' country.

Can he do it? Theoretically, yes, although it would be illegal, dishonest, and very risky to attempt.

Now, I was thinking if this couple had an alternative, they might do it differently. Here's the reality - they haven't met. The chances of meeting here are very low, because he's from Morocco. The chances of her going there seem rather low as well, since she won't fly. Meeting elsewhere might be possible, depending on where she lives, if she can get to a country (without flying) where he could meet her.

That being accomplished somehow, if that can be done, still leaves another problem. Getting a K-1 or spousal visa (if they get married somehow in another country, or even if she wrangles up the courage to fly there and get married in Morocco) with her lack of income. Unless she has income from some other source (maybe unemployment?) that is high enough, or can get a co-sponsor (is that allowed for Morocco?), the application will be denied for financial reasons.

This couple has some serious obstacles.

Now, for those who aren't familiar with MENA couples... yes, it's very odd in this country to get married without meeting beforehand, or after a few weeks or months of first becoming aware of each other's existence. In the past, it might have seemed highly suspicious to me, too. But I found myself marrying a Moroccan approximately 8 months after the very first time I knew he even existed. That was nearly 3 years ago. We're very happy, and I've never regretted my decision, and don't imagine I ever will.

Now, in this couple's case, there's no way of knowing. We're hearing just some things, and from an 'outsider' (no offense to the OP). Maybe he really did fall in love with her, or maybe he just wants to get here. There's no way to know 100%. If he's trying to use her for a green card, though, he picked the wrong target - seems like someone intent on just getting here would find someone who could get him here so much easier than it seems she can (IF she even can).

If he really wants to marry her for love, then it's just a case (and only their business) of whether or not they're making the right decision. Some couples get married after a short courtship and do fine, some don't. Some couples court a long time before marriage - some are making the right decision, and some are making a mistake.

My advice to the Moroccan friend of the OP is to get the visitor visa if possible, and come to meet her. Like someone else said, maybe one or both of them will change their mind once they meet in person. If not, they still might want to keep things simple and have him return to Morocco and apply for a fiance or spousal visa, in order to avoid complications. She'll have to find a job or some other source of adequate income, however.

That brings up a question maybe someone can answer. What happens if he does get a visitor visa, they marry, and he stays, but she doesn't have adequate income? Even if they convince USCIS that getting married was not pre-planned, can he legally stay if the income requirement is not met? Just curious.

I would recommend the OP also advise them to join VJ, so they can learn more about the whole process.

It would be interesting to know how things work out for them. If they are sincere, I hope they find a way to be together.

venusfire