Got my ticket!

[jake61 0]

I would not dream of lying. That is a sure way to get in to trouble.

Is it important how much cash you have? How much is enough?

I will not be bringing any jewerly, but maybe a sweater and a coat. Is there any problem with that?

I will not risk my prescriptions in the checked baggage. I would have to be hospitalized in 24 hours with out it. I can put it in with my notebook bag as a carry on. Of course I carry a pill container with me that has a 12 hour countdown timer. I have to take pills every 6 hours. It is a real drag.

My private doctor also gave me half a dozen Lorazepam to take for the flight over and back. One person said it made a 12 hour flight seem like 30 minutes. I hope they work well because with chronic pain it is hard to sit still for long.

I also just got a Bupropion prescription to help me stop smoking.

I hate taking pills.

Jake

[slim 1,533]

Keep asking good questions.

Absolutely!

This is why we're here. Sure, we like to talk guns and pie, but if we can help someone out, it makes it all worth it.

I would not dream of lying. That is a sure way to get in to trouble.

Whether you lie or not, you're going to get hassled. Stick to your story, whatever it is, and you'll be OK.

[jake61 0]

Well, I made it there and back in one piece. That is about the best thing I can say about the entire trip.

I know most people think of themselves differently than people actually perceive them. People are always kindest to themselves. This can manifest itself as a person not being who they really are in real life. In other words people can be different than they really are when it comes to meeting other people, especially when it comes to getting the companionship they want.

First thing I must say is cameras are kind to her. She does not look anything close to her pictures.

Second, although we had exchanged over 2,500 emails and discussed everything under the sun in depth, it turns out I do not know her at all. It is almost like she just agreed with me, rather than expressing her own viewpoints on subjects.

Third, her attitude was surprisingly different than her emails. There was no desire to learn any more English, and as it turns out, no desire to come to America. Since I have been back, the last email I received from her she stated she loved her life in the Ukraine and speaking her native language!

Fourth, I think she is not at all together. She does not know herself. Since I have been there she has outwardly shown contradictions in what she says. Either that or it is the softest scam on earth.

I think that when I arrived it started to hit her that this was real. She was going to have to make decisions and was not prepared for it. She reacted by slowly withdrawing after I was there about a week. I now think she became afraid and instead of saying anything, she withdrew.

I also think she was either sexually abused or raped at some time. I will not go into details but after the first couple of times we made love I had to ask her about it. She was contradictory within herself during love making. She replied that when she was 25 she was on a train by herself and an old man had tried to rape her but she got away. I do not believe it. She behaves like she was raped and her mind has tried to block it out. I told her I would get her some help with it in America.

After about a week she cooled and I asked her about being cool towards me for the last couple of days, she implied she could not go through with the relationship. Actually this was great for me because I was thinking the same about her. She was not the woman I had come to know in emails.

This brought up an interesting situation. She originally wanted me to stay with her, in her apartment, for 6 weeks. I managed to make it a month. But after 2 weeks she informs me of her decision. I tried to arrange to leave earlier through my son in Chicago, but everything was booked up solid. I also had my son get a hold of my travel agent first thing Monday morning.

Now it gets stranger. She has a weird concept of Christianity. Every once in a while she would go into the bedroom and close the door saying she was going to meditate and pray. It was a combination of lighting a candle and doing the Catholic "sign of the cross". She listens to music on CD that seems to be a combination of many different lands. What she is doing is parts of about 5 or 6 religions, including Buddhism. She says she is a Christian but has never heard of or seen a bible!

Anyway, the calls to my son were on Saturday and it is now Sunday. She says she is going to church. I am at the apartment trying to get my ticket changed. She knows and is aware I am doing this. We had discussed it. 6 hours later she comes back to her apartment from church, a little tipsy and being very nice and friendly. She says she is going to bed because she had seen a girlfriend at church which invited her back to her place after church for some homemade wine. The wine was very strong and she apologized profusely for being gone so long and tipsy. She was overly nice hugging me and kissing me on the neck. I got the impression she wanted me to go to bed with her. I ignored it. I think the girlfriend said something to her about our relationship that made her rethink her position.

My son got a hold of my agent Monday morning. The agent worked on the problem all day and was able to get my return exactly the same as before, but for the next day. It is supposed to cost me $220 more to have the ticket changed, but I would have spent more in the additional 2 weeks I was supposed to stay.

Now it gets kind of sad. Monday morning she is still very friendly and she returns from work on Monday evening still friendly. I inform her of the ticket change which has me leaving the next morning from Odessa. I am in Nikolaev which means I have to catch an early bus to Odessa.

Now she tells me she wants me to stay! I explained I could not change my ticket again and made my way home.

Like I said, in the last email from her she said she loved her life in Ukraine. I think this is more her trying to justify her actions and decision. Because I was born in the USA and I visited the Ukraine. I asked a lot of questions about Ukraine and was observant while I was there.

Anybody that would rather live in the Ukraine than the US is nuts. Everything I saw in the Ukraine looked like it was built before World War I and no maintenance has been done since. If there is a paved street it is broken up and needs repair. The curbs are all cracked and broken. You can be walking on a cracked and broken sidewalk and fall in an open manhole that has no barrier around it and has weeds growing out of it. There are no child custody laws. If you are a pedestrian and are hit by a car, it is just too bad. The driver is not liable to you in any way!

I specifically asked her if all of Nikolaev was like this and she said yes. When you take the bus from Nikolaev to Odessa you get to see a lot of Nikolaev and Odessa. Both cities are like that.

It is as though Russia pulled out of the Ukraine, and in the 20 years since, the Ukraine has not enacted any laws to support their new democracy. Or done anything to improve the economy.

But the worst part is the minds of most of the people. They have not gotten anything in their minds yet of what a democracy is or what it takes to maintain it. They have no concept of free enterprise or working harder to increase their product output which increases revenues which increases their income. For the most part, they still have the communistic system in their minds.

Communism would have never survived as long as it has except for the west supporting it. Russia still owes the US for grain during WW II.

I am from the Midwest. Here everyone waves at everyone else, even if you do not know them. Everyone smiles and says good morning, afternoon or evening as the case may be.

In the Ukraine everyone looks sad and if you pass them on the sidewalk they will not even look at you, let alone say good day. I discussed this with my oldest son which has spent time in England and Europe. He describes it perfectly. He calls it “accepted misery”.

Needless to say I will not be making any more trips to Ukraine. If I do get involved with an eastern European woman she will have to be already in the US. The trip alone was pretty hard on me. The bus ride between Nikolaev and Odessa is like trying to ride a paint shaker. I lost 12 pounds while on the trip.

I am not bitter, but I could have spent the last 3 months and over 2,500 dollars more satisfyingly.

Jake

[clueless_in_usa 8]

I have to say that your description of the trip goes into many details that I would never shared in a public forum, however ...

1) People have to understand that an Internet relationship is worlds apart from the real thing. Lesson learned: never make a serious commitment over the Internet because the reality is usually very different. It reminds me the note on rear-view mirrors: "people in Internet are very different than they appear."

2) Your criticism about the Ukraine shows that this may be your first trip to a third-world country. And your closing comments about never returning to Ukraine because of the "inconvenience" portraits that you are intolerant to the reality other people around the world live.

Having said that, if you want to be happy, you should stick to first-world women (American, Canadian, Western-European, Australian, etc), because you may never be happy with somebody who will make you go through those inconveniences (no matter where you met her, because sooner or later you will have to visit her reality).

Remember, I am not trying to insult you or affront you in any way (I could care less). I am just giving you my opinion, based on your opinions regarding your trip.

By the way, I love traveling to Russia and the Ukraine. People always treat me great, and that is the most important thing for me when I travel somewhere. I also love traveling to India, South America, and other third-world countries despite the undesirable state of the environment, as long as the people show me their care and respect.

[baron555 934]

I also would concur that one can not be so categorical in painting Ukraine (or other FSU countries) as so miserable. You must remember that you only stayed with this one person and could only observe others out in public; trust me they are more like us when they are not in public.

Also the larger citires, Kiev for example, are not as bleak and run down. And folks from the larger cities will also tend to be more progressive and like us (including democratic thoughts) than those where you visited.

It's too bad that the person was different in person but we all will be versus our online persona; be thankful that you both were honest with each other.

Yes since very few men actually get on the plane, I would theorize that many women who engage in online relationships may not have thought out the possibility that they might need to make that fretfull decision.

I can say the even my RW struggled with the notion of leaving her nice life in Russia to live with me.

[jake61 0]

"never returning to Ukraine because of the "inconvenience" portraits that you are intolerant to the reality other people around the world live."

That is not what I meant. My health is not good enough for that amount of traveling any more. It is just to hard on me physically. I have been to other third world countries, but in my youth. Mainly in the Navy. I do not have anything against any peoples or any country.

I guess so many people said they liked it over there that it built up my expectations of Ukraine. I anticapated they had made more advances since Russian communism, kind of more like Warsaw, Poland which has made advances. But Ukraine itself gives the false impression when it always provides the new section of Odessa as poster material. With Ukraine being part of the EU, a person would expect more of some sort of economic leveling between the countries.

I assume it has to do with the leaders of a country and what the people will put up with. I met some other Americans on my return trip that had been over to visit their Ukrainian women. One was a Fedex pilot that had been there seven times. He said the mafia was in charge of Ukraine. I do not know, but the leadership there has something to be desired.

As far as people from Ukraine wanting to leave there for the US all one has to do is look at the people from Mexico coming here illegally in droves. My son used to work with a young man from the Ukraine. Even though he says west of Kiev is better than southern Ukraine, he still says he will not leave the US and go back there.

Let me explain it another way. She has had baked potatoes before, but when I fixed her a baked potato with it slit with butter and sour cream she could not get enough because she had not had them that way before. When I introduced her to several things like that it would be like us wanting to return to Disneyland. I do not know anyone that does not like Disneyland.

It just makes me sad to see people so conditioned and not do anything about it.

Jake

[baron555 934]

It just makes me sad to see people so conditioned and not do anything about it.

Many of us would say the US has the same problem

[payxibka 10,047]

" With Ukraine being part of the EU, a person would expect more of some sort of economic leveling between the countries."

but alas, they are not a part of the EU.... overtures may have been made about a "desire" by some to be a member nation someday... however, many changes would need to be made before an application by Ukraine would even be seriouskly considered by the EU authorities... and some of those needed changes may never occur... EU membership is by far not a guarantee for this country, at least anytime soon...

[1HappyGuy 45]

Jake,

It is really sad that you did not enjoy your trip to Ukraine. Perhaps your disabilities are too much for this kind of travel but you should understand that the majority of the world doesn't make the accommodations we do in this country for the handicapped.

As far as the conditions of roads and buildings, maybe you should cut Ukraine a little slack. If you knew more about the hardships these people went through after the breakup of the Soviet Union, you might understand more about their conditions. You needed to look deeper into the cities to see what they used to look like before the collapse. Ukraine, like many FSU counties is suffering from lack of maintenance. We in this country are in no position to talk about others after the way we have let our country deteriorate. We have potholes everywhere, bridges in need of massive upkeep and water control systems (levees) that are falling apart. Look what a mess Hurricane Katrina did because the levees were not properly maintained.

As for the people and their work ethic and their understanding of democracy, you obviously didn't meet many people or know much about their recent history. Why don't you research the Orange Revolution in Ukraine five years ago. That was an instruction to the world in peaceful democracy. The people in Ukraine want to work, especially the younger ones, but there isn't that much work to do. The older men wish for the days when everyone had a job (government provided) and they didn't really have to work, just show up. The younger people are ambitious and hard working, but there are not the incentives provided by the government tax system to encourage them to be successful. In my opinion, it is the women that conduct most of the work.

Also, you should understand that Ukraine has only been a free country for about twenty years. Their entire economy was in shambles with no direction. They suffered from early leaders that were still communistic and corrupt. They even had one President that demolished a building near the presidential mansion because it ruined his view.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your trip, but it seems that you are letting your personal relationship distort your view of this country. In my trips to Ukraine I have found the people to be generally happy, looking for a positive future with hope and trying to make their lives better as best they can. The cities are alive with music and people on the streets. As far as this woman, internet dating doesn't mean much until people really meet. Maybe before you write off Eastern Europe you might try viewing it a different way. Next time try going in the late spring or summer.

[Steve S 2]

Sorry to hear such a disappointing trip report. I have never been to Ukraine, and will not join in the discussion. As for the relationship details, is it so surprising to hear she may have been nervous and conflicted, at times contradicting herself or changing her mind? It sounds like you had mixed feelings too. You were clearly disappointed by her looks, and some of her behavior, yet you were "making love"? (I suspect she may have wished her sexual history kept private, by the way, even though her identity is not revealed here). Next time, you may wish to schedule a shorter initial visit (to whatever country you think will be more comfortable to visit). As for her mixed spiritual practice, I am Unitarian-Universalist so I am highly tolerant of it (!) but it sounds like it would be a problem for you. Can be a learning experience, if you have a future electronic courtship, to eventually discuss values and beliefs that are important to you (not on the first "date", but maybe before you book a $2500 trip). These are just some thoughts that come to my mind right now. Again, I am sorry things did not go well, I hope you will find your love and will use your lessons from this experience.

[jimnlena 8]

Sorry you had such a disappointing visit!!! When I read of your trip, it seems you visited a different country than I did!!

[Brad and Vika 129]

I also want to add that I am sorry things didn't turn out as planned Jake. Ukraine is a beautiful country really, and the the hospitality of people in Eastern Europe is truly legendary. As we discussed, a visit can be worth a thousand email, and there is a huge amount of cultural stuff that you will not encounter online.

As to some of the comments posted above, IMO you are entitled to your opinion, and have experiences different than some of ours. Obviously things like health, medication, and life situation will effect your travel experience. I will also say that your SOs age is a bit older than most (but not all) of our wives and SOs, and her behaviour may be different than our experience for that reason. You commented earlier here about her lack of family close to her, and some private comments (that I won't repeat) that make your position (in my mind at least) pretty reasonable. I do think your situation while in Ukraine - and her entire life situation - are a little atypical.

Best of luck!

[slim 1,533]

Jake, I'm not going to blow smoke up your @$$ and tell you that you should've been more tolerant of Ukraine or gotten to know this woman better or anything like that. I know you were looking for something different than what most of us were looking for. Obviously, it looked promising in the build-up stages but it just didn't turn out to be what you'd hoped. However, what you're looking for is out there, and if you can chock this one up as a learning experience, you can head back in with this under your belt and you'll come out ahead for it.

What I will tell you is don't give up. I'd also encourage you to "go shopping" and look for exactly what you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a man your age having a relationship with a gorgeous 20-year-old. I know that's not what you're looking for... but I bet you could make it work! And the thing is, so could she! From her side, relationships like that aren't uncommon. You can find a nice looking woman (maybe a little older than 20!) that speaks pretty good English, isn't scared to share her religious convictions, and is actually half-way normal - one that would fit in here in the midwest.

Take a little breather, relax a little, but stay here on VJ for a little while. Don't throw in the towel just because of this one experience. What you're looking for is out there.

Hope to see you around. Good luck!

[Brad and Vika 129]

Jake, I'm not going to blow smoke up your @$$ and tell you that you should've been more tolerant of Ukraine or gotten to know this woman better or anything like that. I know you were looking for something different than what most of us were looking for. Obviously, it looked promising in the build-up stages but it just didn't turn out to be what you'd hoped. However, what you're looking for is out there, and if you can chock this one up as a learning experience, you can head back in with this under your belt and you'll come out ahead for it.

What I will tell you is don't give up. I'd also encourage you to "go shopping" and look for exactly what you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a man your age having a relationship with a gorgeous 20-year-old. I know that's not what you're looking for... but I bet you could make it work! And the thing is, so could she! From her side, relationships like that aren't uncommon. You can find a nice looking woman (maybe a little older than 20!) that speaks pretty good English, isn't scared to share her religious convictions, and is actually half-way normal - one that would fit in here in the midwest.

Take a little breather, relax a little, but stay here on VJ for a little while. Don't throw in the towel just because of this one experience. What you're looking for is out there.

Hope to see you around. Good luck!

Sounds familiar right Jake? Well, maybe not the 20-year-old part.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I had talked to my bank about using my ATM Visa Debit card over in the Ukraine. I know the bank president (not only is he a jerk but unprincipled and unethical as well) and he just called me telling me I was better off using my credit card over there. Not only do I think he is wrong because I have never had a problem with my debit card at an ATM, but have had to replace my credit card twice in the last three months because somebody at someplace I have used it tried to buy ####### with it.

He then proceeded to tell me about how I might get locked out if I try to use the internet overseas to transfer money from my checking to the credit card. All that tells me is they do not have a handle on all this technology yet.

But what I am wanting to rant about is his attitude about going overseas to see a woman.

I am sick of peoples attitudes toward going overseas to see a woman. It just ticks me off when they are so closed minded. You just want to say that kind of attidtude is exactly why there are not any good women available here. I just get so tired of closed mind opinionated small minded people. What is worse is it comes from people that are so jaded themselves they can not see right from wrong or anything but their own wants and needs. They are like a virus that spreads BS ruining everything for everybody.

Jake

I'm not sure what bank you use, but my Wells Fargo Visa debit card works just fine at the ATM's in eastern Europe. I call Wells Fargo to let them know the dates I will be using it over sea's (arrive - return), for the fact banks will sometimes freeze your account/card if you do not let them know ahead of time and they start seeing a lot of transactions in high profile scamming country's such as Russia, Belarus, etc... so just make sure you clear the dates with the bank first, and also make sure you use a four digit PIN so that it works in their ATM machines.

On a side note...make sure you carry your wallet in your front pocket over there and not your back pocket like you may tend to do here in the US. Good luck and have fun.