I am curious

[AngelK96 0]

Layla and Szsz,

I "don't have a dog in this fight," as they say, but I had to chime in. Forgive me if I'm butting in where I'm not wanted.

It seems like the both of you are very passionate about your religion, and you both have different viewpoints on this particular topic. I think you both feel very strongly in your views, and each of you want to be sure that someone just coming into the fold is not "misled" by the other one. I don't think either of you intended to come off as judgemental or rude, but sometimes, in text, it's difficult to tell the person's tone. Somehow, it has spiraled into a big argument and it seems (to me, anyway) you're starting to take this personally.

It's really difficult in religion to believe so strongly about something and to be frustrated in conveying that belief to others, especially when someone has an opposite viewpoint.

I think you've both made valid points, and you both really believe what you're saying, and you have a reason to believe what you're saying. Then someone comes along and refutes your point, and it becomes a big mess, feelings get hurt, people become offended, etc. When, all along you're each just trying to be good ambassadors (for lack of a better word) for your religion.

I hope that you both are able to understand where the other is coming from, even if you don't agree with what each other is saying. I have learned a lot from both of you by reading your posts, and I think you're equally important to this board. I hate to see ill feelings or hostility between you, when you're both trying to accomplish the same thing, and that's to develop a greater understanding of the religion you both share (even though you have different interpretations of that religion).

I understand the frustration, but I hope you can put it behind you so we can continue to see your great contributions to this board.

Just my $.02.

ditto

[Katie 0]

Also, from what I understand, the United States is not going to enforce the marriage laws of ANY marriage performed in another country unless the laws are the same as ours and/or there is also a prenup here that would enforce the same, so in that sense it is all moot anyway. What would be necessary would be to register your marriage here which everyone will have to do anyone who enters on a K1.

Rebecca

Rebecca,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean in this paragraph. Just to clarify, a marriage performed abroad that is valid where performed will be valid in the US, and there is no need to "register" that marriage in the US. In the US, the requirements for a valid marriage are state-specific and vary from state to state, but as long as the marriage is valid in the state in which it was performed, it will be valid in the other 49 states. The same goes for marriage peformed abroad. There are some exceptions to this, two being polygamous marriages and gay marriages, which are valid in some countries but will not be recognized in the US.

What can cause problems for couples married abroad is determing what makes the marriage legally valid. Is it the signing of the marriage contract? Registering the marriage contract with the proper authority? Speaking a vow? Couples may be legally married when that was not their intent.

Katie

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It is not halal to perform only PART of what is required for a valid marriage; to go thru the motions of being married, but have no recourse if something goes wrong. Not only that, but if one presents oneslef as married to the community, and INSISTS that they are married, as Layla has done, but unmarried to the state when they apply for their K1, that is a misrepresentation of the circumstances that defies the dictum of obeying the law of the land. That is against the very spirit of Islam, setting up a HYPOCRITICAL situation, then expecting people who take thei faith seriously to regard their actions as halal. I have a hard time believing that, except for hijab, Layla takes her faith serriously when she represents Islam in such a piss poor manner. Some of you may think it's right, maybe you're used to half-assed piety, but I cannot.

I'm not angry, I am disappointed, and I have said that before. I have offered much to back my points, and someone who has offered nothing but their own desire is allowed to skate. Only one person, Rebaecca, has even indicated that she has done any independent examination of the isse; everyone else just wants what they want. This only leads me to believe that the rules are not important to most of you; your desire cones before God.

I have stated before that it is not about being right, but about being clear. Everyone is allowed to choose for themselves. But when it seems evident that few are interested in discerning the truth, but willing to settle for platitudes, and half-assed acts that do not complete the requirements in Islam, it is disappointing to discover that this is the level of commitment some have to the deen. I have been impressed at how friendships and alliances seem to be the priority. I have none here to save, my priority is the faith. Perhaps that's why I see what some of you simply cannot see.

I congratulate those who stand up for their beliefs. I cngratulate those who point ouyt that there is a habit of cutting and running when you cannot support your position. I wonder tho, if the powers that be at VJ would be interested in the fact that there is a contingent here that advocates law-breaking, making contradictory claims about marriage and encouraging others that it's ok to do so, for there are few sites that do not frown upon law-breaking. We shall see . . .

[babybunny 2]

Also, from what I understand, the United States is not going to enforce the marriage laws of ANY marriage performed in another country unless the laws are the same as ours and/or there is also a prenup here that would enforce the same, so in that sense it is all moot anyway. What would be necessary would be to register your marriage here which everyone will have to do anyone who enters on a K1.

Rebecca

Rebecca,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean in this paragraph. Just to clarify, a marriage performed abroad that is valid where performed will be valid in the US, and there is no need to "register" that marriage in the US. In the US, the requirements for a valid marriage are state-specific and vary from state to state, but as long as the marriage is valid in the state in which it was performed, it will be valid in the other 49 states. The same goes for marriage peformed abroad. There are some exceptions to this, two being polygamous marriages and gay marriages, which are valid in some countries but will not be recognized in the US.

What can cause problems for couples married abroad is determing what makes the marriage legally valid. Is it the signing of the marriage contract? Registering the marriage contract with the proper authority? Speaking a vow? Couples may be legally married when that was not their intent.

Katie

question.

are you talking about for US immigration purposes? or are you making a generalized USA to alien marriage scenario here? - there is really a fine line in that statement. because its FALSE!

Edited July 20, 2006 by babybunny

[Bosco 1]

Rebecca,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean in this paragraph. Just to clarify, a marriage performed abroad that is valid where performed will be valid in the US, and there is no need to "register" that marriage in the US. In the US, the requirements for a valid marriage are state-specific and vary from state to state, but as long as the marriage is valid in the state in which it was performed, it will be valid in the other 49 states. The same goes for marriage peformed abroad. There are some exceptions to this, two being polygamous marriages and gay marriages, which are valid in some countries but will not be recognized in the US.

What can cause problems for couples married abroad is determing what makes the marriage legally valid. Is it the signing of the marriage contract? Registering the marriage contract with the proper authority? Speaking a vow? Couples may be legally married when that was not their intent.

Katie

Hi Katie

I do not mean the recognition of the marriage as valid. I am talking specifically of the things that result from a marriage (specifically Islamic marriage) in terms of inheritance, divorce, custody, etc. If a marriage is conducted in Egypt, valid both here and there, the US State is likely to enforce the laws of that state regarding those matters, not the laws of Egypt. Thus, any "protections" you may have benefited from a result of registering your marriage in the foreign country may or may not be same "protections" here. I suppose a prenup is the best way to address these issues in this case.

Rebecca

Edited July 20, 2006 by Bosco

[sarah and hicham 3]

It seems at this point that everyone is trying to get the last word, so when someone gets theirs in the other comes back to get the last word and so forth. I hope it stops because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

[babybunny 2]

It seems at this point that everyone is trying to get the last word, so when someone gets theirs in the other comes back to get the last word and so forth. I hope it stops because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

thats how a debate normally works. if you are tired of the views expressed. STOP OPENING THE THREAD.

It is not halal to perform only PART of what is required for a valid marriage; to go thru the motions of being married, but have no recourse if something goes wrong. Not only that, but if one presents oneslef as married to the community, and INSISTS that they are married, as Layla has done, but unmarried to the state when they apply for their K1, that is a misrepresentation of the circumstances that defies the dictum of obeying the law of the land. That is against the very spirit of Islam, setting up a HYPOCRITICAL situation, then expecting people who take thei faith seriously to regard their actions as halal. I have a hard time believing that, except for hijab, Layla takes her faith serriously when she represents Islam in such a piss poor manner. Some of you may think it's right, maybe you're used to half-assed piety, but I cannot.

I'm not angry, I am disappointed, and I have said that before. I have offered much to back my points, and someone who has offered nothing but their own desire is allowed to skate. Only one person, Rebaecca, has even indicated that she has done any independent examination of the isse; everyone else just wants what they want. This only leads me to believe that the rules are not important to most of you; your desire cones before God.

I have stated before that it is not about being right, but about being clear. Everyone is allowed to choose for themselves. But when it seems evident that few are interested in discerning the truth, but willing to settle for platitudes, and half-assed acts that do not complete the requirements in Islam, it is disappointing to discover that this is the level of commitment some have to the deen. I have been impressed at how friendships and alliances seem to be the priority. I have none here to save, my priority is the faith. Perhaps that's why I see what some of you simply cannot see.

I congratulate those who stand up for their beliefs. I cngratulate those who point ouyt that there is a habit of cutting and running when you cannot support your position. I wonder tho, if the powers that be at VJ would be interested in the fact that there is a contingent here that advocates law-breaking, making contradictory claims about marriage and encouraging others that it's ok to do so, for there are few sites that do not frown upon law-breaking. We shall see . . .

I have to agree with you here fully! my dad used to say you dont belive

Sugar Honey Ice Tea - dont stink til you smell it. that boils down to those that wanna play the " lets get married and not registar the marriage - so we can come on K-1"Game, will get Burnt!

you think CASA will never enforce the " field investigation " policy? you think Casa is above that?

not really its right around the corner. btw, as I said before ISL " field investigates" all petitons!!

K-1 and K-3/ CR1s seems like other embassys are following suit..

[babybunny 2]

It is not halal to perform only PART of what is required for a valid marriage; to go thru the motions of being married, but have no recourse if something goes wrong. Not only that, but if one presents oneslef as married to the community, and INSISTS that they are married, as Layla has done, but unmarried to the state when they apply for their K1, that is a misrepresentation of the circumstances that defies the dictum of obeying the law of the land.

if she really is doing this - I HOPE SHE GET FOUND OUT!!

[Veiled Princess 1]

Ok, I would like to clear up a few things....

First of all, I am not attempting to defraud the US govt in any way. I have been up front and honest with immigration the whole way. They have a copy of my marriage contract, with an explanation that we were married "Islamically" but were unable to get the marriage license due to time restraints and issues in dealing with the state department in Cairo. We had every intention of applying for our marriage license the day after I arrived (our nikaah was the night I arrived) but we ran into many problems, as some of you who are familiar with my case, are aware of. Our intention was to file DCF before I left to come back but our plans fell through.

On a side note: The reason we had our nikaah the night I arrived was not because either of us were concerned with sex.... Yousuf waited his whole life and could wait another day or week or month or year if needed. the fact of the matter was that I did not want to be alone with him until we were married and I didn't want to stay by myself in a strange country either. This was the drive behind our choice.

I have never advised anyone here NOT to register your marriage with the state nor have I claimed that I will not do this myself when Yousuf is here.

(Yet another lie against me at what I can only assume is an attempt to have me removed from VJ)

The other night I had no intentions of ever visiting this section of VJ again because of the slander against me by one with no proof to issue the fatwa against me that has been issued here. However, everytime I come back here to check on Jess's thread, to update myself on her situation, I see these two threads thriving. Out of pure morbid curiosity, I open the thread and low and behold, there is my name being drug through the mud some more. It is my feeling that if any of you were being unjustly slandered in a public forum, you would also succumb to frustration and anger. I could be wrong but I am not perfect and no one is.

All I asked for was the proof from Quran and Sunnah that nikaah alone is haraam and it is yet to be posted but still I am slandered day in and day out for no reason other than someone doesn't like the scholars that I trust or the path that I have chosen.

I do not excuse my behavior in dealing with this and I don't ask any of you to either but I do ask that you at least place yourself in my shoes and try to understand what this is like for me.

I have also received PMs (not mentioning any names) from others who have encouraged me not to leave and to continue to share. I am happy to share my beliefs as I understand them but not at the expense of being constantly slandered. I have handled myself poorly here and am in no position to give advice at this point BUT it is not in Islam to publicize your own sins nor the sins of your brothers in sisters in the deen. If one needs to be advised it should be done in private. I don't believe my nikaah is sinful but if it was, I have deffinately not been given the rights here that Allah has given for me. I have also been guilty of this and I am sorry, again.

I understand the desire to discuss Islam here, however, it is very hurtful to me to see these two threads every day in which my name is being slandered and I am being viciously attacked. I humbly ask everyone to agree to have these two threads locked and forgotten and I offer a solution. I will open another thread titled "Islam Discussion" or something to this effect (you all can tell me what you want) in which everyone will be free to express their beliefs and opinions without judgement; just as a discussion and a chance for us to learn about various opinions.

Can we agree on this compromise? Min fadlik??

Layla

[babybunny 2]

no one would ask you to leave VJ. what we all would like is if you NOT post its ok to marry and not registar it. its against the law in the USA and abroad no matter what country you are from. if you get away with informing the Embassy you are married and they still allow you to come on K-1 then they are not doing their job. let me tell you someting. the USA laws are made up of a series of CHECKS and BLANCES.

I know you rember this from US history class? Some things may slide that Embassy level and get CAUGHT at POE. somethings may side by at POE but, get caught at LOCAL USICS level! just want you aware of it.

I have seen A member of VJ come here on a visa and get DENIED at AOS. they realized her marriage papers were misrepresntation. it was a mess husband got deported and everything.

[Veiled Princess 1]

no one would ask you to leave VJ. what we all would like is if you NOT post its ok to marry and not registar it. its against the law in the USA and abroad no matter what country you are from. if you get away with informing the Embassy you are married and they still allow you to come on K-1 then they are not doing their job. let me tell you someting. the USA laws are made up of a series of CHECKS and BLANCES.

I know you rember this from US history class? Some things may slide that Embassy level and get CAUGHT at POE. somethings may side by at POE but, get caught at LOCAL USICS level! just want you aware of it.

I have seen A member of VJ come here on a visa and get DENIED at AOS. they realized her marriage papers were misrepresntation. it was a mess husband got deported and everything.

As I stated Shon, immigration is aware of my situation and they approved me through the process so far. I have not tried to lie to them or misrepresent myself or my case at all. They have my marriage contract and they understand that I can't file K-3 because I dont' have the marriage license yet. In their eyes I am not married.

I am not talking about the US law. I understand you have to have your marriage registered for immigration. My point is that I am not less married in Allah's eyes just because I don't have that paper yet.

[babybunny 2]

no one would ask you to leave VJ. what we all would like is if you NOT post its ok to marry and not registar it. its against the law in the USA and abroad no matter what country you are from. if you get away with informing the Embassy you are married and they still allow you to come on K-1 then they are not doing their job. let me tell you someting. the USA laws are made up of a series of CHECKS and BLANCES.

I know you rember this from US history class? Some things may slide that Embassy level and get CAUGHT at POE. somethings may side by at POE but, get caught at LOCAL USICS level! just want you aware of it.

I have seen A member of VJ come here on a visa and get DENIED at AOS. they realized her marriage papers were misrepresntation. it was a mess husband got deported and everything.

As I stated Shon, immigration is aware of my situation and they approved me through the process so far. I have not tried to lie to them or misrepresent myself or my case at all. They have my marriage contract and they understand that I can't file K-3 because I dont' have the marriage license yet. In their eyes I am not married.

I am not talking about the US law. I understand you have to have your marriage registered for immigration. My point is that I am not less married in Allah's eyes just because I don't have that paper yet.

I agree with you!

This happend to cindishah. her marriage was NOT reconized she filed K-3. they said in their eyes she was not married. so her husband came on K-1 visa. I think the 2 factors was one she married in < Korea >

and it was islamic. it took forever before max was able to come over. These instances are few and far between. they are in the AOS process now.

[Katie 0]

Hi Katie

I do not mean the recognition of the marriage as valid. I am talking specifically of the things that result from a marriage (specifically Islamic marriage) in terms of inheritance, divorce, custody, etc. If a marriage is conducted in Egypt, valid both here and there, the US State is likely to enforce the laws of that state regarding those matters, not the laws of Egypt. Thus, any "protections" you may have benefited from a result of registering your marriage in the foreign country may or may not be same "protections" here. I suppose a prenup is the best way to address these issues in this case.

Rebecca

OK, now I understand.

Katie

[Bosco 1]

I understand the desire to discuss Islam here, however, it is very hurtful to me to see these two threads every day in which my name is being slandered and I am being viciously attacked. I humbly ask everyone to agree to have these two threads locked and forgotten and I offer a solution. I will open another thread titled "Islam Discussion" or something to this effect (you all can tell me what you want) in which everyone will be free to express their beliefs and opinions without judgement; just as a discussion and a chance for us to learn about various opinions.

Can we agree on this compromise? Min fadlik??

Layla

I would love to see a new thread opened as you describe.

Rebecca

[Veiled Princess 1]

I would love to see a new thread opened as you describe.

What should I name it? To semi hide from flamers LOL

How would you say "discuss Islam" in arabic? kalamul islam? talakul islam? ( i am seriously guessing LOL ) or use deen instead of religion?

Edited July 20, 2006 by Veiled Princess