I am curious

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You know, respectfully, you simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what people are trying to convey here. Instead you are jumping to your own conclusions and slapping your own labels on things to make sense of them in your own way. TA DA. Point made. Regretfully for your sake not all human beings think and see things absolutely as you do. No one here has ONCE said that what is stated in Islam is taken lightly. There will be variation in how each individual processes the information given therein. I do not know why this is so hard for you to comprehend, but if you are so much happier with your labelling and judgements then I suppose that's good for you. You are an extremely logic-based person. This is your reality. Just know that not all are as you are. That's all.

Jean, thanks to the history lessons I have received from long-time posters and the evidence in the responses that bears them out, I have a VERY GOOD idea of what some people are trying to convey here, and so do many others who have given up trying to reset the "bandwagon mentality" that some of you display. You would be surprised at how clear it is, so don't play me cheap. People here have said that what is stated in Islam is to be taken lightly; they say it every time they say it's ok to believe whatever you want to believe. Maybe your ignore feature works well on those statements.

Also, you seem to prefer some labels over others. Layla's labeling doesn't bother you at all.

I'm not an absolutist; far from it, but I'm also not in denial. Islam is not the religion portrayed by some here to be either - some sort of hedonisitic, whatever feels good do it, interpret as you please hodge podge of nebulous nothingness. Don't make excuses for the fact that it is difficult for some here to concede that there are rules and limitations, coz you rarely get a response that states that, it seems so easy to dismiss doing your homework on an issue by simply stating that it doesn't matter because not all people have the same perspective.

Perspective, my #######. They just don't like rules in religion. There're too . . . ah, "absolutist".

Now, if every Muslim was like some of you folks, there would be no fiqh, no law, no prayer standards, nothing, because, hey, it's all decide yourself. Fortunately, alhumdillalah!, there are those among Muslims who understand that the use of FACTS is important in forming OPINIONS. Those who complain about my paradigm simply are uninterested in facts; facts will confuse you as to what is real and what you want to believe.

Now as far as me saying I was leaving. I said there were posts I had chosen not to see. Unfortunately, my ignore feature does not seem to be working. I will see if I can fix that. Now I'm sure this will be followed by yet another condescending remark from you regarding my character. Go ahead. But I won't be reading it.

Condescending remarks about me have been legislated into the bandwagon mentality, I suppose.

I have received about a half-dozen PMs laughing about the threats to leave. They say people say it but rarely do it. You and Layla have to get in line for that recurring drama.

Edited July 20, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I am going to request this thread and the other be locked. This is getting out of hand.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Easier to do that than to provide proof for your positions, Layla.

Lock away, but the issue isn't going to go away.

Edited July 20, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

SZSZ, I did not direct anything to you please stop calling my name in EVERY post.

I have already concluded that you don't have proof from Quran or Sunnah to back up your opinion so there is no need to argue further. Furthermore, I have already shown the daleel from Quran and Sunnah and you reject them both so there's no agreeing between me and you (you and I?). You can continue to interpret the Quran your own way and reject the Sunnah and ahadeeth all you want and I will continue doing what I'm doing and we will just agree to disagree.

You can not force people to see things your way. You can only show them and if they don't take it then you just have to let it go.

There is no need to bring your hate and bad attitude to our "safe haven". We have many other places to find that here. Thanks.

[dawnnhatem 0]

You can not force people to see things your way. You can only show them and if they don't take it then you just have to let it go.

yup.

Layla and anyone else with their finger on the report button, if you don't want to contribute, don't contribute. If you don't want to open this thread, don't open this thread. You don't want to log in anymore, don't log in anymore. A discussion about the distinctions between islam and other paths and why it is hard to muster up the discipline to make the transition to Islam from whatever path one follows ought to be welcome here of all places. There's no better place to aire it, and locking an active and realavent thread because you can't convince someone you are the righter one is just wrong.

just be nice everybody.

[LaL 418]

anyone else with their finger on the report button, if you don't want to contribute, don't contribute. If you don't want to open this thread, don't open this thread. You don't want to log in anymore, don't log in anymore. A discussion about the distinctions between islam and other paths and why it is hard to muster up the discipline to make the transition to Islam from whatever path one follows ought to be welcome here of all places. There's no better place to aire it, and locking an active and realavent thread because you can't convince someone you are the righter one is just wrong.

just be nice everybody.

dawnie is a wise chicky

*waves*

[MHandMB 0]

Layla and Szsz,

I "don't have a dog in this fight," as they say, but I had to chime in. Forgive me if I'm butting in where I'm not wanted.

It seems like the both of you are very passionate about your religion, and you both have different viewpoints on this particular topic. I think you both feel very strongly in your views, and each of you want to be sure that someone just coming into the fold is not "misled" by the other one. I don't think either of you intended to come off as judgemental or rude, but sometimes, in text, it's difficult to tell the person's tone. Somehow, it has spiraled into a big argument and it seems (to me, anyway) you're starting to take this personally.

It's really difficult in religion to believe so strongly about something and to be frustrated in conveying that belief to others, especially when someone has an opposite viewpoint.

I think you've both made valid points, and you both really believe what you're saying, and you have a reason to believe what you're saying. Then someone comes along and refutes your point, and it becomes a big mess, feelings get hurt, people become offended, etc. When, all along you're each just trying to be good ambassadors (for lack of a better word) for your religion.

I hope that you both are able to understand where the other is coming from, even if you don't agree with what each other is saying. I have learned a lot from both of you by reading your posts, and I think you're equally important to this board. I hate to see ill feelings or hostility between you, when you're both trying to accomplish the same thing, and that's to develop a greater understanding of the religion you both share (even though you have different interpretations of that religion).

I understand the frustration, but I hope you can put it behind you so we can continue to see your great contributions to this board.

Just my $.02.

[Veiled Princess 1]

The problem is there is too much hatred here. It's not a matter of just discussing anything. Some of us are presenting Islam in a negative manner... either by our actions (I'll be the first to admit, my mistakes when this first started), astaghfirullah, or by talking about sex contracts or telling everyone they're not allowed to have an opinion if it's not yours. This is not the proper way to have an Islamic discussion. Allah (subhanahu wa ta'la) says in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion and our prohpet (sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) taught us to spread Islam with gentleness and we're not doing that here... at least not all of us

I don't have a problem if anyone disagrees with me... just don't try to push your views on me and I'll do the same. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to abide by that.

[babybunny 2]

sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

Really? Is it the woman's responsibilty to provide for her husband? Are women responsible for fighting on the battle field when the need arises? Can women marry more than one husband at a time? Do men break their fasts and put off prayers when they are menstrating? Is it required for a man to have a wali present to get married?

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

did you really feel the need to attack moroc?

she was only sharing her perspective.

damm no matter what ladies on in this forum has gotton NASTY.. you talk religon and get HATEFUL.

this is not the MENA forum its turned in to the MEAN girls forum. thats plain UGLY.

I will say this those ladies that feel the need to post the quran and spread alittle sun shine

please feel welcome on the ISL thread. there you wont belittled or treated disrespectful.

The problem is there is too much hatred here.

this time you started it first on Morocc. that is UNFAIR its plain nasty!

I am going to request this thread and the other be locked. This is getting out of hand.

you come here and started off attacking Morocc but, then your punkazz decided to

hit the report button others called YOU out. SU GENTE!!

[Veiled Princess 1]

sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

Really? Is it the woman's responsibilty to provide for her husband? Are women responsible for fighting on the battle field when the need arises? Can women marry more than one husband at a time? Do men break their fasts and put off prayers when they are menstrating? Is it required for a man to have a wali present to get married?

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

did you really feel the need to attack moroc?

she was only sharing her perspective.

damm no matter what ladies on in this forum has gotton NASTY.. you talk religon and get HATEFUL.

this is not the MENA forum its turned in to the MEAN girls forum. thats plain UGLY.

I will say this those ladies that feel the need to post the quran and spread alittle sun shine

please feel welcome on the ISL thread. there you wont belittled or treated disrespectful.

The problem is there is too much hatred here.

this time you started it first on Morocc. that is UNFAIR its plain nasty!

I am going to request this thread and the other be locked. This is getting out of hand.

you come here and started off attacking Morocc but, then your punkazz decided to

hit the report button others called YOU out. SU GENTE!!

Shon, I was not trying to attack her. I was pointing out that there are some differences. I have admitted things I have said have not been phrased correctly already.

Moroc, if it sounded like I was attacking you, I'm very sorry. That was not my intention and I didn't think you took it that way since you replied.

[babybunny 2]

sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

Really? Is it the woman's responsibilty to provide for her husband? Are women responsible for fighting on the battle field when the need arises? Can women marry more than one husband at a time? Do men break their fasts and put off prayers when they are menstrating? Is it required for a man to have a wali present to get married?

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

did you really feel the need to attack moroc?

she was only sharing her perspective.

damm no matter what ladies on in this forum has gotton NASTY.. you talk religon and get HATEFUL.

this is not the MENA forum its turned in to the MEAN girls forum. thats plain UGLY.

I will say this those ladies that feel the need to post the quran and spread alittle sun shine

please feel welcome on the ISL thread. there you wont belittled or treated disrespectful.

The problem is there is too much hatred here.

this time you started it first on Morocc. that is UNFAIR its plain nasty!

I am going to request this thread and the other be locked. This is getting out of hand.

you come here and started off attacking Morocc but, then your punkazz decided to

hit the report button others called YOU out. SU GENTE!!

Shon, I was not trying to attack her. I was pointing out that there are some differences. I have admitted things I have said have not been phrased correctly already.

Moroc, if it sounded like I was attacking you, I'm very sorry. That was not my intention and I didn't think you took it that way since you replied.

yes you did!

she was only expressing her thoughts and her personal experiance. she did not ask for you to attack her. that was plain wrong. she told you she had limited knowledge and was trying to learn. nothing was warm or welcoming about that. hell if you were gonna say anything. it could have been like " how exciting, maybe offer her a link to getting a little knowledge" instead you were not so nice to her.

I dont think her post was nothing more than her perspective.

[Veiled Princess 1]

yes you did!

she was only expressing her thoughts and her personal experiance. she did not ask for you to attack her. that was plain wrong. she told you she had limited knowledge and was trying to learn. nothing was warm or welcoming about that. hell if you were gonna say anything. it could have been like " how exciting, maybe offer her a link to getting a little knowledge" instead you were not so nice to her.

I dont think her post was nothing more than her perspective.

That was not my intent. I didn't mean for it to sound like an attack. It was just questions for her to consider. AND I said I'm sorry

[Bosco 1]

I have avoided re-jumping in here but oh well

They way I see it, Layla requested proof not that a marriage is best registered (to which I think she agrees) but that a marriage that is not registered is haram, and specifically haram according to the Quran and Sunnah.

I believe szsz posted some strong points arguing the case that a marriage should be/must be registered and for reasons that even Layla has agreed to. However, reading through those sites carefully, I have not seen it stating explicitly Islamic alone is "haram".

Quoting from the first:

In the United States and Canada it is also required for the couples who intend to get married to take a license before their marriage. The person who performs the marriage then signs this license along with two witnesses. After that the license is sent to the Registrar of Marriages. The Registrar's office then issues a marriage certificate. No marriage in the US and Canada is recognized as legal marriage unless it is registered.

Some Muslims do not follow these procedures. They say that in Islamic marriage paper work is not necessary. They also say that they only care for what is halal and want to marry according to the Shari`ah, they do not care whether the marriage is legally recognized here or not........It is important for Muslim men and women to have their marriages and divorces properly documented. Islam teaches fairness and justice in all cases. (emphasis my own).

Quoting from the second:

Now coming to the issue of contracting marriages in a society where Islamic laws are not enforced or recognized, it is also highly crucial to get the legal papers before marriage contract; for legal purposes, the marriage must be solemnized by someone who has been authorized by the law of the land to perform marriage. In the absence of such legalization, there is no guarantee of legal protection for anyone in the event of a dispute.

Although some people may consider legalization as being not so crucial, I would, however, insist that it is quite crucial and essential; it is not advisable for anyone to get married without legal papers. This fact can be emphasized by referring to the fact that marriage is primarily a social contract and as such we should do so in conformity with the laws of the land we live so that such a contract can be legally enforced.

Again, very strong proofs have been saying that registering is in the best interest of the parties, in fact crucial to their protection have but those proofs have not specifically come out and condmened Islamic alone has haram. I think it is a catch-22, the proof Layla has specifically requested (Qur'an and Sunnah explicitly) is not there, as it isn't explicit in either source.

If I remember correctly, Layla's marriage was performed in a country with Islamic law, so I am not sure if these opinions are necessarily relevant to her specific situation. Also, from what I understand, the United States is not going to enforce the marriage laws of ANY marriage performed in another country unless the laws are the same as ours and/or there is also a prenup here that would enforce the same, so in that sense it is all moot anyway. What would be necessary would be to register your marriage here which everyone will have to do anyone who enters on a K1.

I think that both sides have shown their points of view and you cannot always get everyone to see things the same way, regardless of how "loud" you post or how often. I also think the most effective way to debate is to present your information without getting personal.

Rebecca

[noura 0]

damm no matter what ladies on in this forum has gotton NASTY.. you talk religon and get HATEFUL.

this is not the MENA forum its turned in to the MEAN girls forum. thats plain UGLY.

For once, Shon, I agree with you here... and I said I was not popping back in, but this thread is like a darn train wreck, I just keep looking....

and for the record, not that anyone cares, nor do I care that no one cares , I have lost all respect for the main posters in this debate (which is choosing a kind word, cuz it's really more like a darn ####### fight).

ok, 'nuff said....

back to my corner now....

Edited July 20, 2006 by noura

[Veiled Princess 1]

They way I see it, Layla requested proof not that a marriage is best registered (to which I think she agrees) but that a marriage that is not registered is haram, and specifically haram according to the Quran and Sunnah.

Thank you sister! You got it exactly. That's all I was trying to say and I tried explaining that but I just couldn't get the point across! Shukran shukran shukran!

For once, Shon, I agree with you here... and I said I was not popping back in, but this thread is like a darn train wreck, I just keep looking....

and for the record, not that anyone cares, nor do I care that no one cares , I have lost all respect for the main posters in this debate (which is choosing a kind word, cuz it's really more like a darn ####### fight).

ok, 'nuff said....

back to my corner now....

I'm sorry!