I am curious

[Veiled Princess 1]

I wasn't referring to the woman working, rather men that tell their wives that their places are in the home while they go off galavanting around in the evening when they should be home with their family. I saw a lot of this when I was in Morocco, and I think this is their culture, not Islam. I can't picture the Koran saying this. Again, I am no expert in Islam, but rather to me it is common sense I am basing this on.

He should be at home with his family

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have to admit that now I am more confused than ever regarding Islam. I have been debating back and forth for a while now if I would be willing to convert after learning much more regarding the religion. Now I don't know what to beleive. I have seen much more bickering among the muslim sisters than I ever have among my christian sisters. The mention of the "sex contract" has really upset me. I don't know what it's like in other countries, and I'm backing Layla on this one. I was not able to be in Egypt long enough to go here there and whatnot to have a wedding. Yes, we have the marriage contract, but our marriage was not consumated. So much for my sex contract, I should've gone for it eh? I don't know, I am finding myself more confused now because I feel now if I converted I would never be doing anything correctly. I beleive in God and I believe God loves me and I love him. Until then I will continue to do some serious soul searching and beleive in trust in God. That in itself is going to have to get me through life.

I'm sorry, we shouldn't be bickering like this, you're right. But it is our duty as muslims to point out when something said is wrong and unfortunately when people feel strongly about a matter it can lead to an argument. This sex contract thing is nonsense please don't pay attention to deviants as it will only confuse you more. It is better to seek refuge in Allah and move on.

As far as doing everything correctly.... none of us are perfect. We just have to do the best we can and try to make our worship for Allah alone and perfect it (worship) the best we are able. Allah does not burden a soul more than he can bear.... "On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." Al-Qur'an, 2.286 (Al-Baqara)

Remember that Allah reminds us many times over, in His book, that He is The Most Merciful and The Oft-Forgiving. That does not mean that we should take His commands lightly, NO!, but He forgives whom He wills.

Concern yourself now with learning about the principles of Islam, mainly at-tawheed (the oneness of Allah). This is the most important thing... the reason being, if you fall into shirk (associating partners with Allah) and die upon this, none of your good in this world has done you any good in the next. You can pray everyday, give charity, fast, go to hajj (the pilgrimage), but without "la ilaha illa Allah" it is all for nothing! What a terrible waste of life.

"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed." Al-Qur'an, 4.048 (An-Nisa)

Layla

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This sex contract thing is nonsense please don't pay attention to deviants as it will only confuse you more. It is better to seek refuge in Allah and move on.

You're the deviant, Layla the Wahabi. According to you, everyone but you and the other converts who did what you did are wrong. All the born Muslims are wrong, the Arabic speakers are wrong, the women who told you they knew this to be true is wrong. Only Layla the newbie is right.

What's nonsense is that you've been Muslim for a hot minute, Arab never, a scholar by no means, but you think you know what you don't know. No, we shouldn't be bickering, but I am inexhaustable when lies about Islam are being told. Don;t just say it's not true, Layla, prove it. You said yourself that proof is required and that it's not offensive to ask, or were you merely mouthing off before you realized I meant business?

I wish it was as simple as that, but it is soooooo wrong to mislead women about this. Sooooo very wrong!

You had your chance to address my posts head on, and you backed down, and refused to offer what you say convinces you that I'm incorrect. Then, in an attempt at manipulation and to get sympathy, you come on with fake drama proclaiming that you were leaving the site coz no one likes you.

Wah! Wah! Wah!

Whomever still thinks you to be credible re that issue, I will make dua for them.

In Arabic, nikah means "sexual intercourse and the mahr is money paid to make sex legal. But without the protection of an authority that can adjudicate and enforce the contract, there is no protection, so the contract is invalid. You don't have an authority to adjudicate your contract, so it offers you no protection. For you to claim that Allah offers you refuge in Him for this arrangement is blasphemy. You know it, but you are too proud to admit it, and want others to share your misery.

Shame on you, hiding behind false piety and accusing those who expose you of deviance! Shame on you, Layla! May God forgive you!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Islamonline is a reputatble, rather neutral Sunni website that entertains questions about the deen. Like anyone or any place, it is not required that you agree with all they say, but are they among the "deviants" Layla so righteously dismisses? Let's see what they have to say about this issue.

Name of Questioner

Maria - United States

Title: Significance of Registering Marriage in the West

Question

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. Please elaborate on the importance of two witnesses for the bride. Also explain what is the Mahr Shar`i (amount in dollars) for Nikah. Can any Muslim perform the Nikah ceremony? Is signing the documents by bride and groom necessary in front of the witnesses?

Date: 13/Jul/2006

Name of Mufti: Muzammil Siddiqi

Topic: Marriage

Answer:

Wa`alykum As-Salaam Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

It is noteworthy that Islam pays great attention to marriage, taking all measures to protect the family life and relations between the spouses against any suspicion or difficulty that may arise in the future. Like all contracts, the Shari`ah demands witnesses for the marriage contract and it lays stress on announcement so as to protect the spouses against suspicion from the society and protect the rights of each partner for likely future disputes. In line with the aims of the Shari`ah the registration of marriage in non-Muslim countries is of paramount significance in protecting the rights of the spouses.

In his response to the questions you posed, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:

For marriage a minimum of two witnesses are required. These witnesses are not for bride or for groom but they are the witnesses for the marriage of the couple for whom they accept to be the witnesses. Nikah (marriage ceremony) is both a legal ceremony and a public ceremony. According to the Shari`ah, there should be two witnesses for all important legal contracts. Nikah as a public ceremony should also be done in the presence of many people (or at least two as minimum), so that more people know that this man and this woman have come together as legally married couple.

Concerning the mahr (dower), Allah says in the Qur'an, (And give women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.) (An-Nisa' 4: 4)

(Those among them (i.e. your wives) whom you enjoy give them their dowers as determined. But there is no blame on you, if after a dower is determined, you mutually agree to vary it.) (An-Nisa' 4: 24)

(If you divorce them before consummation and you have fixed a dower for them then half of the dower is due to them, unless they forgive it or it is forgiven by him in whose hand is the marriage tie.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 237)

According to the Shari`ah, the Mahr should also be reasonable. There is no fixed amount of Mahr in the Shari`ah. It should be given according to the financial status of the husband and according to the time and place. We cannot apply the Mahr of 7th century in the 20th century, nor the Mahr of India or Pakistan can be applied in the United States and Canada. As the financial conditions of the people in different time and places change, so the amount of Mahr can be determined accordingly.

However, it is a principle of the Shari`ah that the Mahr should not be too expensive. It is wrong to declare large amount of Mahr at the time of marriage to show off or to boast. Some time bride's family put pressure on the groom and his family for a large amount of Mahr so that they may show their pride to their relatives and friends boasting that their daughter was married for a big Mahr. Some times the groom declares a big amount and secretly thinks that this is just a commitment on paper. People are often heard saying, "Write whatever you want, no one asks and no one pays." This is a play with the rules of Allah. Muslims should only commit what they are really capable of paying and what they intend to pay. It is haram to enjoy relations with a wife and then deny her the Mahr promised to her.

However, we must keep in mind that Mahr is not a bride price. It is a woman's right and it signifies a husband's love and appreciation for his wife. In the Qur'an it is called "Sadaq" which means a token of friendship. It is also called "Nihlah" which means "a nice gift or present." Mahr also signifies a husband's commitment to take care of his wife's financial needs (Nafaqah).

It is correct that Nikah ceremony can be performed by any Muslim, but in order to organize this serious legal contract, in Muslim countries some people are authorized by the governments to perform the Nikah or to register the Nikah. These people are called "Ma'dhun Shar`i" or "Qadi" etc. In America, the Imams of the Islamic centers or someone authorized by the Islamic centers should officiate the Nikah. Some states in the US and Canada require that the person who perform the marriage must be a justice of peace, or a judge or a licensed clergy. In some states it is illegal for an unlicensed person to perform marriages.

In the United States and Canada it is also required for the couples who intend to get married to take a license before their marriage. The person who performs the marriage then signs this license along with two witnesses. After that the license is sent to the Registrar of Marriages. The Registrar's office then issues a marriage certificate. No marriage in the US and Canada is recognized as legal marriage unless it is registered.

Some Muslims do not follow these procedures. They say that in Islamic marriage paper work is not necessary. They also say that they only care for what is halal and want to marry according to the Shari`ah, they do not care whether the marriage is legally recognized here or not. However, there are some cases where Muslim women have greatly suffered, due to these unregistered marriages. Some Muslim men marry without any legal papers and then leave their wives. These women do not know what to do and how to get divorce from their husbands who abandon them. Upon resorting to the US and Canadian courts they are told that according to the local laws they are not considered married. These women have nothing to prove their marriage and the courts have no marriage record of these women. Even the local Islamic centers in the US and Canada are unable to help them, because the laws in these lands do not give the right of divorce to anyone except to the local superior courts. It is important for Muslim men and women to have their marriages and divorces properly documented. Islam teaches fairness and justice in all cases.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...aEAskTheScholar Emphasis mine.

Islam teaches fairness and justice in all cases.

That is exactly what I have been saying. There is no justice, no fairness in the sex paper marriage without protection that Layla advocates. That makes it patently unsanctioned by Islam.

If you want to deal in reality and also pleaseGod, you will not tempt sin by elevating desire above commitment to Allah's intent.

Prove me wrong, Layla. Prove me wrong, or concede.

There is more to come. I will not let lies go unchallenged.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Taken from: Al-Mawrid (A Modern Arabic-English Dictionary) by: Dr. Rohi Baalbaki....

نكاح = nikaah: Marriage, matrimony, wedlock

جنس = jins: sex, sexual intercourse, copulation, coitus, coition, lovemaking, carnel knowledge

This can also mean gender.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Islamonline is a reputatble, rather neutral Sunni website that entertains questions about the deen. Like anyone or any place, it is not required that you agree with all they say, but are they among the "deviants" Layla so righteously dismisses? Let's see what they have to say about this issue.

Name of Questioner

Maria - United States

Title: Significance of Registering Marriage in the West

Question

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. Please elaborate on the importance of two witnesses for the bride. Also explain what is the Mahr Shar`i (amount in dollars) for Nikah. Can any Muslim perform the Nikah ceremony? Is signing the documents by bride and groom necessary in front of the witnesses?

Date: 13/Jul/2006

Name of Mufti: Muzammil Siddiqi

Topic: Marriage

Answer:

Wa`alykum As-Salaam Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

It is noteworthy that Islam pays great attention to marriage, taking all measures to protect the family life and relations between the spouses against any suspicion or difficulty that may arise in the future. Like all contracts, the Shari`ah demands witnesses for the marriage contract and it lays stress on announcement so as to protect the spouses against suspicion from the society and protect the rights of each partner for likely future disputes. In line with the aims of the Shari`ah the registration of marriage in non-Muslim countries is of paramount significance in protecting the rights of the spouses.

In his response to the questions you posed, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:

For marriage a minimum of two witnesses are required. These witnesses are not for bride or for groom but they are the witnesses for the marriage of the couple for whom they accept to be the witnesses. Nikah (marriage ceremony) is both a legal ceremony and a public ceremony. According to the Shari`ah, there should be two witnesses for all important legal contracts. Nikah as a public ceremony should also be done in the presence of many people (or at least two as minimum), so that more people know that this man and this woman have come together as legally married couple.

Concerning the mahr (dower), Allah says in the Qur'an, (And give women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.) (An-Nisa' 4: 4)

(Those among them (i.e. your wives) whom you enjoy give them their dowers as determined. But there is no blame on you, if after a dower is determined, you mutually agree to vary it.) (An-Nisa' 4: 24)

(If you divorce them before consummation and you have fixed a dower for them then half of the dower is due to them, unless they forgive it or it is forgiven by him in whose hand is the marriage tie.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 237)

According to the Shari`ah, the Mahr should also be reasonable. There is no fixed amount of Mahr in the Shari`ah. It should be given according to the financial status of the husband and according to the time and place. We cannot apply the Mahr of 7th century in the 20th century, nor the Mahr of India or Pakistan can be applied in the United States and Canada. As the financial conditions of the people in different time and places change, so the amount of Mahr can be determined accordingly.

However, it is a principle of the Shari`ah that the Mahr should not be too expensive. It is wrong to declare large amount of Mahr at the time of marriage to show off or to boast. Some time bride's family put pressure on the groom and his family for a large amount of Mahr so that they may show their pride to their relatives and friends boasting that their daughter was married for a big Mahr. Some times the groom declares a big amount and secretly thinks that this is just a commitment on paper. People are often heard saying, "Write whatever you want, no one asks and no one pays." This is a play with the rules of Allah. Muslims should only commit what they are really capable of paying and what they intend to pay. It is haram to enjoy relations with a wife and then deny her the Mahr promised to her.

However, we must keep in mind that Mahr is not a bride price. It is a woman's right and it signifies a husband's love and appreciation for his wife. In the Qur'an it is called "Sadaq" which means a token of friendship. It is also called "Nihlah" which means "a nice gift or present." Mahr also signifies a husband's commitment to take care of his wife's financial needs (Nafaqah).

It is correct that Nikah ceremony can be performed by any Muslim, but in order to organize this serious legal contract, in Muslim countries some people are authorized by the governments to perform the Nikah or to register the Nikah. These people are called "Ma'dhun Shar`i" or "Qadi" etc. In America, the Imams of the Islamic centers or someone authorized by the Islamic centers should officiate the Nikah. Some states in the US and Canada require that the person who perform the marriage must be a justice of peace, or a judge or a licensed clergy. In some states it is illegal for an unlicensed person to perform marriages.

In the United States and Canada it is also required for the couples who intend to get married to take a license before their marriage. The person who performs the marriage then signs this license along with two witnesses. After that the license is sent to the Registrar of Marriages. The Registrar's office then issues a marriage certificate. No marriage in the US and Canada is recognized as legal marriage unless it is registered.

Some Muslims do not follow these procedures. They say that in Islamic marriage paper work is not necessary. They also say that they only care for what is halal and want to marry according to the Shari`ah, they do not care whether the marriage is legally recognized here or not. However, there are some cases where Muslim women have greatly suffered, due to these unregistered marriages. Some Muslim men marry without any legal papers and then leave their wives. These women do not know what to do and how to get divorce from their husbands who abandon them. Upon resorting to the US and Canadian courts they are told that according to the local laws they are not considered married. These women have nothing to prove their marriage and the courts have no marriage record of these women. Even the local Islamic centers in the US and Canada are unable to help them, because the laws in these lands do not give the right of divorce to anyone except to the local superior courts. It is important for Muslim men and women to have their marriages and divorces properly documented. Islam teaches fairness and justice in all cases.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...aEAskTheScholar Emphasis mine.

Islam teaches fairness and justice in all cases.

That is exactly what I have been saying. There is no justice, no fairness in the sex paper marriage without protection that Layla advocates. That makes it patently unsanctioned by Islam.

If you want to deal in reality and also pleaseGod, you will not tempt sin by elevating desire above commitment to Allah's intent.

Prove me wrong, Layla. Prove me wrong, or concede.

There is more to come. I will not let lies go unchallenged.

Name of Questioner: Zoaib - Egypt

Title: Conditions of Valid Marriage

Question Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. If I do not have the money to afford an official wedding yet, can I just get married Islamically at first? Do I need the permission of an imam, or do I simply need two witnesses? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Date: 17/Jul/2006

Name of Mufti: Ahmad Kutty

Topic: Marriage

Answer

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we are really pleased to have your question and to have the chance to convey some of the teachings of our religion to our Muslim brothers and sisters. We hope these humble efforts meet the great expectations of yours.

In Islam, the marriage of a man and a woman is not just a financial and physical arrangement of living together but a sacred contract, a gift of Allah, to lead a happy, enjoyable life and continue the lineage. The main goal of marriage in Islam is the realization of tranquility and compassion between the spouses.

If by “official wedding” you mean a grand feast, this is not necessary to make the marriage valid. The contract can be solemnized by someone who has been authorized to perform marriages (a judge or imam, etc.) and witnessed by two or more adult Muslims. If one cannot afford a large banquet, the wedding can be celebrated by a simple meal for a small number of relatives and friends.

Answering your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

Marriage in Islam is essentially a social contract, and so long as it is contracted conforming to the stated requirements, it shall be deemed valid. The presence of an Imam at the function is not at all one of the stated requirements, but the marriage should be solemnized by someone who has been authorized to perform marriages.

The stated requirements of marriage in Islam are as follow: Full consent of both partners to the marriage, expressing the above consent through ijab (offer) and qabul (acceptance), finally the presence of two reliable witnesses. Apart from the above, in the case of females, their guardian’s consent has been considered essential for the validity of marriage according to the majority of imams and scholars. Imam Abu Hanifah, however, is of the view that a mature woman is fully capable of contracting her own marriage. Thus in his view, marriages finalized without guardian’s consent shall be considered as valid so long the woman has chosen someone who is considered as compatible.

Furthermore, scholars are also in general agreement to the fact that marriages should not remain a secret affair; rather they should be publicized. Another important integral of marriage is the bridal gift; although it is not essential to stipulate it in the marriage contract, nevertheless it must be paid either before consummation of marriage or after.

Now coming to the issue of contracting marriages in a society where Islamic laws are not enforced or recognized, it is also highly crucial to get the legal papers before marriage contract; for legal purposes, the marriage must be solemnized by someone who has been authorized by the law of the land to perform marriage. In the absence of such legalization, there is no guarantee of legal protection for anyone in the event of a dispute.

Although some people may consider legalization as being not so crucial, I would, however, insist that it is quite crucial and essential; it is not advisable for anyone to get married without legal papers. This fact can be emphasized by referring to the fact that marriage is primarily a social contract and as such we should do so in conformity with the laws of the land we live so that such a contract can be legally enforced.

Apart from this, Islam teaches us to do what we do as efficiently, methodically and professionally as we can. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Allah loves you to do your work as best as you can.”

In conclusion, you should insist on getting the marriage done by obtaining the legal papers, and getting it solemnized by an Imam or a person who has been authorized to do so. So long as the marriage is done by fulfilling the above requirements, it shall be considered as valid. All other things such as arranging a grand wedding or throwing a big feast, etc. are all non-essentials as far as the validity of the marriage is concerned.

May Allah guide our steps in all our affairs and help us to remain steadfast on what is true and right, Ameen!

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...aEAskTheScholar

Islam is mean to provide protection for all of God's creations. Do not seek to take shortcuts that put your protection at jeopardy. Do not listen to deviants, true, but know who the deviants are.

I’m not the one saying it now, Layla.

CHAPTER FOUR

Marriage

Table of Contents

The Qur´an uses two words to designate the marriage contract: zawaj (meaning marriage) and nikah (meaning wedlock). The word nikah is the most frequently used one in the Sharia. It denotes four things in the Qur´an, according to the experts of Islamic fiqh: marriage, sexual intercourse, bestowal, and marriageable age. As to the first meaning, the Qur´an says, "Do not marry idolatresses until they believe" (Sura al-Baqara 2:221). The same meaning is found in Sura al-Nisa´ 4:25, where it says, "So marry them, with their people's leave," and Sura al-Nisa´ 4:3, "Marry such women as seem good to you....." Also in Sura al-Nur 24:3, "A fornicator may only marry a fornicatress."

The second meaning of the word nikah, which is sexual intercourse, occurs in Sura al-Baqara 2:230, "Until she marries another husband." In this verse the actual sexual intercourse between husband and wife is meant.

The third meaning, marriage of bestowal, is found in Sura al-Ahzab 33:50, "And any woman believer, if she give herself to the Prophet, and if the Prophet desire to take her in marriage, for thee exclusively, apart from the believers." This sort of bestowal is lawful only for the Prophet.

The fourth meaning, marriageable age, is in Sura al-Nisa´ 4:6, "Test well the orphans, until they reach they reach the age of marrying."(1)

Jurists are in unanimous agreement on the fact that nikah means sexual intercourse and that it is used to denote the marriage contract as a figure of speech because the marriage contract is the legal means for having intercourse.(2) Nikah is permissible only after the marriage contract, concluded between the bridegroom and the bride (al-`aqidan), and the bride's guardian in the presence of at least two witnesses. Nikah has two elements without which it cannot be fulfilled: the first is al-´ijab (response), which is the utterance coming from the guardian or his substitute, and the second is qubul (consent), which is the utterance coming from the husband or his proxy. Then the husband has to pay a bridal gift and a marriage portion.(3) The consent of the bride's guardian is essential for making the marriage contract legal, because "Wedlock cannot be concluded except through a guardian."(4) The subject of the marriage contract will be treated in detail later on. Marriage is not a sacrament in Islam as it is in the Catholic church; rather it is a solemn agreement or binding compact that should not be tampered with. The Qur´an says, "You have had intercourse with each other, and they have made a solemn agreement with you" (Sura al-Nisa´ 4:21). Wedlock in Islam is based on civil contract, which need not be recorded in writing.(5)

[Together4ever 1]

I have to admit that now I am more confused than ever regarding Islam. I have been debating back and forth for a while now if I would be willing to convert after learning much more regarding the religion. Now I don't know what to beleive. I have seen much more bickering among the muslim sisters than I ever have among my christian sisters. The mention of the "sex contract" has really upset me. I don't know what it's like in other countries, and I'm backing Layla on this one. I was not able to be in Egypt long enough to go here there and whatnot to have a wedding. Yes, we have the marriage contract, but our marriage was not consumated. So much for my sex contract, I should've gone for it eh? I don't know, I am finding myself more confused now because I feel now if I converted I would never be doing anything correctly. I beleive in God and I believe God loves me and I love him. Until then I will continue to do some serious soul searching and beleive in trust in God. That in itself is going to have to get me through life.

If you are considering Islam, I would find a much more sedate and level source of learning... and not give a lot of your opinion over to what is going on here. There is some valuable information but as you can see interpretation tends to be up for grabs and egos can muddy the waters. As for myself, I discussed some with a scholar at Cairo University, with a local sheikh and my fiance and his family when I had questions. The rest I found for myself in reading the quran and pondering the words. If someone else feels "I'm not doing it right" that is between me and Allah.

If I am repeating what someone else has said, I apologize. I'm no longer interested in reading some of the postings here. My fiance has advised against it and I tend to agree with him.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

egos can muddy the waters.

No ego on this end. I have no dog in this fight in that I am REALLY married, legally and spiritually, and don't feel a need to justify having no protection behind my nikah to validate it. I only want for others what is best for them. I don't need to be the one who convinces them, I only need to do as Allah has asked of us all - give them the best information that they can use to decide for themselves, and challenge those who would use them to validate their own acts.

I'm no longer interested in reading some of the postings here. My fiance has advised against it and I tend to agree with him.

Is there a custom on this board of announcing that you're not coming back?

Edited July 20, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Must repeat for the sake of the Christians and novice Muslimas converted from Christianity:

Marriage is not a sacrament in Islam as it is in the Catholic church; rather it is a solemn agreement or binding compact that should not be tampered with. The Qur´an says, "You have had intercourse with each other, and they have made a solemn agreement with you" (Sura al-Nisa´ 4:21). Wedlock in Islam is based on civil contract, which need not be recorded in writing.

[amal 4]

I wanted to mention that if a person wants to study Islam online, they need to be very very careful of the website they visit. I think someone may have mentioned this before but it's very important that everyone is aware that many of the sites give a wrong message about Islam. So please just be careful what websites you choose to do research on Islam.

I also wanted to say that what layla said was not incorrect..I think it may have been misinterpreted. What she said could have been taken more than one way depending on the person reading it and their "mind-set" or attitude at that time. Remember everyone is allowed their own beleifs and/or opinions. It doesn't make them wrong or right if they do not have the same beliefs as another person. It just makes them human.

amal

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I also wanted to say that what layla said was not incorrect..I think it may have been misinterpreted. What she said could have been taken more than one way depending on the person reading it and their "mind-set" or attitude at that time. Remember everyone is allowed their own beleifs and/or opinions. It doesn't make them wrong or right if they do not have the same beliefs as another person. It just makes them human.

Apparently, some folks don't require proof; they want to hear only what pleases them. Layla has not provided any back up for her interpretation, and neither has anyone who says she could be right. I have.

Some of you, with your non-judgmental, politically correct "all interpretations are ok", "anyone can believe what they want" approach to all aspects of Islam make the deen sound like a do as you please, anything goes faith, and it is not. It is not like what you're used to in your laisse faire, liberal, do as you desire culture. Islam does have limits, boundaries and things that will send you to hell. There is free will, yes, there can be more than one interpretation to SOME things, yes, but there are rules, as well. There is right and wrong. Don't try to make it over in the image of hedonism, so you can pretend to be married while God is watching you sin. You must fit to it, not it to you. That seems to be a very hard lesson for some of you to accept.

Edited July 20, 2006 by szsz

[Together4ever 1]

I also wanted to say that what layla said was not incorrect..I think it may have been misinterpreted. What she said could have been taken more than one way depending on the person reading it and their "mind-set" or attitude at that time. Remember everyone is allowed their own beleifs and/or opinions. It doesn't make them wrong or right if they do not have the same beliefs as another person. It just makes them human.

Apparently, some folks don't require proof; they want to hear only what pleases them. Layla has not provided any back up for her interpretation, and neither has anyone who says she could be right. I have.

Some of you, with your non-judgmental, politically correct "all interpretations are ok", "anyone can believe what they want" approach to all aspects of Islam make the deen sound like a do as you please, anything goes faith, and it is not. It is not like what you're used to in your laisse faire, liberal, do as you desire culture. Islam does have limits, boundaries and things that will send you to hell. There is free will, yes, there can be more than one interpretation to SOME things, yes, but there are rules, as well. There is right and wrong. Don't try to make it over in the image of hedonism, so you can pretend to be married while God is watching you sin. You must fit to it, not it to you. That seems to be a very hard lesson for some of you to accept.

You know, respectfully, you simply DO NOT UNDERSTAND what people are trying to convey here. Instead you are jumping to your own conclusions and slapping your own labels on things to make sense of them in your own way. TA DA. Point made. Regretfully for your sake not all human beings think and see things absolutely as you do. No one here has ONCE said that what is stated in Islam is taken lightly. There will be variation in how each individual processes the information given therein. I do not know why this is so hard for you to comprehend, but if you are so much happier with your labelling and judgements then I suppose that's good for you. You are an extremely logic-based person. This is your reality. Just know that not all are as you are. That's all.

Now as far as me saying I was leaving. I said there were posts I had chosen not to see. Unfortunately, my ignore feature does not seem to be working. I will see if I can fix that. Now I'm sure this will be followed by yet another condescending remark from you regarding my character. Go ahead. But I won't be reading it.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Unfortunately, my ignore feature does not seem to be working. I will see if I can fix that.

Mine works just fine.... it's that stupid button labeled "view this post" that gets me! Curiosity.... Cat....

Oh I didn't think about the fact that I might be one of the ones you're not reading

Edited July 20, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[iceyspots 0]

Does Allah not state that he has given a degree over women to men in the Quran? Lets see, only if he is following the Quran, and is guiding her in the same direction, correct? When he is given a degree over the woman I see that as it is his responsibility to take care of us and provide for us. Not, "you stay home because you are a woman and I will go out, because I am the man and I have dominion over you". Sorry...don't buy it.

Please read my other post. I did not say ever that a woman can't leave her house or work outside the home. That is the reason it's important to choose a husband wisely and to study Islam independantly, on your own as well. You don't want to follow any man to annar

OK, so since this discussion is continuing, I have a slightly off-topic but Islam related question. I PM'd SZSZ but she has not yet replied even tho she has had time to provide lengthy replies here in the interim...

I am curious (also, since this is the subject title here) that if Christians have the cross as a symbol, Jews have the pentacle as a symbol, what is the Islamic/Muslim symbol? I am thinking it's a crescent and star, but then I'm wondering if I'm just thinking of a particular flag. It was just a question asked of me and I wasn't sure of the answer.... anyone?

Noura

otherwise, I'm staying out of this discussion

You know... I'll have to look into that myself. I have seen the cresent and star used as the Islamic symbol on flags (KSA if I'm not mistaken) but I'm not sure we're supposed to be taking any symbols like that. Could that not lead to shirk (associating partners with Allah--- a very bad thing)? I wonder if that's the reason why so many non-muslims mistakingly think muslims worship the moon????

The Algerian flag (see below) has the crescent moon and star.. I'm pretty sure the Saoudi flag just has the shahada.

[Veiled Princess 1]

The Algerian flag (see below) has the crescent moon and star.. I'm pretty sure the Saoudi flag just has the shahada.

You are absolutely correct! Saudi has the shahada with a sword. It was Pakistan that I was visualizing, see here.

Sorry