I am curious

[Veiled Princess 1]

Also, the Qur'an is meant to be the first source, but many use ahadith and Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an, instead of the other way around.

Rebecca

Yes but the messenger was sent, not only with the message, but also with the explanation of the message, which is why it's so important to look to the Sunnah as well when trying to understand what is meant.

[Bosco 1]

Also, the Qur'an is meant to be the first source, but many use ahadith and Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an, instead of the other way around.

Rebecca

Yes but the messenger was sent, not only with the message, but also with the explanation of the message, which is why it's so important to look to the Sunnah as well when trying to understand what is meant.

I agree, but there is a difference between shaping understanding of the Qur'an through the Sunnah rather than understanding Sunnah through the Qur'an. Sunnah should not change or contradict the Qur'an but enhance it.

Rebecca

[Veiled Princess 1]

I agree, but there is a difference between shaping understanding of the Qur'an through the Sunnah rather than understanding Sunnah through the Qur'an. Sunnah should not change or contradict the Qur'an but enhance it.

Rebecca

I agree

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Disclaimer: I am not politically correct, nor am I a moral relativist, so I will analyze any view that makes islam appear to be a faith that is inflexible as to its view of individuals and seeks to lump all women or all men into categories, making a women or a man who does not fit into these neat little cultural categories appear to be anomolies that defy God's plan and put them outside of this view of Islam, otherwise known as "Hislam". I am not a feminist, just someone who knows that this stereotype of Islam has plagued the progress of the Muslim world and that we must resist its implantation into the mind of nouveau Muslims.

Now,

Allah made men stronger and He gave them the responsibility to take care of us and spend from their means to support us so they have been given a degree over us for that. We should obey our husbands or fathers because of this and because we are commanded to in the book of Allah. That's just how it is. There must be a leader to every group. The people in a country can not rule themselves and neither can a home. The man (father/husband) is the "king" of his home and he has to provide for everyone in it. In exchange, those in it should obey him as long as he doesn't tell you to do something that is a sin. This also should not be used to oppress women because Allah also says in His book that oppression is worth than death. This is the main reason why any muslim woman should choose a righteous husband who fears and obeys Allah and not a non-muslim man who won't respect her rights or lead her in the way of Allah and His messenger.

It is not meant to suppress women but to keep us safe.

Islam gives women nearly twice as many rights as men. They may not be the same rights but it's fair.

Men and women are equal in Islam because our prophet said that the woman is the twin to the man, and a man has completed half of his imaan (faith) when he marries. We are the ones who give birth to the men and we are the first to teach them in this world. We are in a way, responsible for the future of the ummah, of course all things are with Allah alone and only He can allow or prevent anything, but you see my point.

Women in Islam have a high status which demands that we be cared for, protected and respected. Allah does not make laws for us to oppress us but to uplift us, guard us and prevent us from falling into that which would harm us. May Allah guide us all upon the straight path and grant us refuge in Him from ash-shaytaan, ameen.

This statement represents a overly broad generalization of some specific situations found in a few ayat in the Quran and Sunnah; a practice which is typical of Salafi/Wahabi philosophy. That is a problem I have with Layla's presentation of Islam; that she has learned a few sectarian platitudes, and applied them liberally across the board. The interesting thing about it is that, in order to claim the correctness of this view, one must either be entirely ignorant of the history of the early Muslim community, or have a major need to reflect responsibilty for your life onto someone else and call it "safety" and "protection".

If a woman is twin to a man, why do they ALL need protection from men? Some do, undoubtedly, but this view places men who are not "natural" leaders or women who do not need protection in jeopardy of being seen as outside of the norm, when the norm is demonstrative in the text and history that we are able to rise and fall before God by our own acts and beliefs, which cannot be negated by the "protection" of any other mortal.

By this measure, our Nabi would be outside of the norm. His first wife, Khadijah, proposed to him, employed him, was far richer than him, spent her wealth to support his prophethood and served as his qaawaam; he became an orphan when his wife and uncle died in quick succession, leaving him without clan affiliation.

After she died, he married women who were strong, some worked to support the home, challenged him in debate, one even served as his consult for treaties with the pagans. He took women into battle with him. He did housework! BTW, fiqh does not require more from a wife than for her to be available to her husband for sex. They are not required to raise their children, or do take care of the home. If she asks, her husband is to provide help to take on the tasks she cares not to do. This is among the rights women have in Islam, and most don't even know it.

Islam and its treatment of gender is far more nuanced than is presented in sectarian platitudes. To be aware of the breadth and depth of its philosophy, one must include, history and context into the mix, something amateurs often miss.

On to Rebecca's comments, which really impressed me.

One thing I would suggest is when looking at the conclusions people draw (including scholars) is to look not only at the final conclusion but how they came upon it. There are times where they will form an opinion because it is not explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an and Sunnah, and other times form an opinion on the basis that it is not explicitly permissible in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Rules of interpretation are not always applied in the same way, so I think it is just as important to understand why that person has come to that particular conclusion and see if you agree with the methodology. I have found that in many of the things that I perceive restrict women, a sort of reverse methodology is used, i.e. - there is no precedent in the sources, it is not clearly stated to be permissible so the conclusion is drawn that it is forbidden. However, the opposite method is used in broader subjects "it is not forbidden so it must be permissible".

Also, the Qur'an is meant to be the first source, but many use ahadith and Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an, instead of the other way around.

Damn! The girl is good! She addresses a common mistake - you cannot simply regard a source as correct without context, perspective and knowing WHY the result of their conclusions are as they are. In reseaerch, this is called POV, we are to examine the environment of a determination, not simply take it at face value.

Sadly, this is what a lot of converts do all too willingly.

Dorothy, one thing you should know is that there is a mainstream view, and then there are sectarian views. What Layla gave you is the view that her sect holds to be true. It is primarily cultural. This is no different in knowing enough about Christian sects to understand that Catholics, Protestants, Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., do not all have the same POV. Examine, then decide.

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

I guess I have a lot of reading and digesting to do ...thank you all for your responses...I have printed them out and will continue my research, my soul searching and my journey...I am so glad for this forum as so many intelligent and wonderful individuals participate and are willing to share their knowledge, personal experiences and opinions...Thank you all once again...all voices are welcomed...humbled and grateful

Dorothy

Edited July 19, 2006 by ella74ny

[Veiled Princess 1]

SZSZ, do not call my name in your posts and do not direct any statements to me in the future. Thank you.

[morocco4ever 63]

sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

Really? Is it the woman's responsibilty to provide for her husband? Are women responsible for fighting on the battle field when the need arises? Can women marry more than one husband at a time? Do men break their fasts and put off prayers when they are menstrating? Is it required for a man to have a wali present to get married?

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

Does Allah not state that he has given a degree over women to men in the Quran? Lets see, only if he is following the Quran, and is guiding her in the same direction, correct? When he is given a degree over the woman I see that as it is his responsibility to take care of us and provide for us. Not, "you stay home because you are a woman and I will go out, because I am the man and I have dominion over you". Sorry...don't buy it.

[noura 0]

OK, so since this discussion is continuing, I have a slightly off-topic but Islam related question. I PM'd SZSZ but she has not yet replied even tho she has had time to provide lengthy replies here in the interim...

I am curious (also, since this is the subject title here) that if Christians have the cross as a symbol, Jews have the pentacle as a symbol, what is the Islamic/Muslim symbol? I am thinking it's a crescent and star, but then I'm wondering if I'm just thinking of a particular flag. It was just a question asked of me and I wasn't sure of the answer.... anyone?

Noura

otherwise, I'm staying out of this discussion

[Veiled Princess 1]

Does Allah not state that he has given a degree over women to men in the Quran? Lets see, only if he is following the Quran, and is guiding her in the same direction, correct? When he is given a degree over the woman I see that as it is his responsibility to take care of us and provide for us. Not, "you stay home because you are a woman and I will go out, because I am the man and I have dominion over you". Sorry...don't buy it.

Please read my other post. I did not say ever that a woman can't leave her house or work outside the home. That is the reason it's important to choose a husband wisely and to study Islam independantly, on your own as well. You don't want to follow any man to annar

OK, so since this discussion is continuing, I have a slightly off-topic but Islam related question. I PM'd SZSZ but she has not yet replied even tho she has had time to provide lengthy replies here in the interim...

I am curious (also, since this is the subject title here) that if Christians have the cross as a symbol, Jews have the pentacle as a symbol, what is the Islamic/Muslim symbol? I am thinking it's a crescent and star, but then I'm wondering if I'm just thinking of a particular flag. It was just a question asked of me and I wasn't sure of the answer.... anyone?

Noura

otherwise, I'm staying out of this discussion

You know... I'll have to look into that myself. I have seen the cresent and star used as the Islamic symbol on flags (KSA if I'm not mistaken) but I'm not sure we're supposed to be taking any symbols like that. Could that not lead to shirk (associating partners with Allah--- a very bad thing)? I wonder if that's the reason why so many non-muslims mistakingly think muslims worship the moon????

[JElsafty 0]

I have to admit that now I am more confused than ever regarding Islam. I have been debating back and forth for a while now if I would be willing to convert after learning much more regarding the religion. Now I don't know what to beleive. I have seen much more bickering among the muslim sisters than I ever have among my christian sisters. The mention of the "sex contract" has really upset me. I don't know what it's like in other countries, and I'm backing Layla on this one. I was not able to be in Egypt long enough to go here there and whatnot to have a wedding. Yes, we have the marriage contract, but our marriage was not consumated. So much for my sex contract, I should've gone for it eh? I don't know, I am finding myself more confused now because I feel now if I converted I would never be doing anything correctly. I beleive in God and I believe God loves me and I love him. Until then I will continue to do some serious soul searching and beleive in trust in God. That in itself is going to have to get me through life.

[morocco4ever 63]

Does Allah not state that he has given a degree over women to men in the Quran? Lets see, only if he is following the Quran, and is guiding her in the same direction, correct? When he is given a degree over the woman I see that as it is his responsibility to take care of us and provide for us. Not, "you stay home because you are a woman and I will go out, because I am the man and I have dominion over you". Sorry...don't buy it.

Please read my other post. I did not say ever that a woman can't leave her house or work outside the home. That is the reason it's important to choose a husband wisely and to study Islam independantly, on your own as well. You don't want to follow any man to annar

I wasn't referring to the woman working, rather men that tell their wives that their places are in the home while they go off galavanting around in the evening when they should be home with their family. I saw a lot of this when I was in Morocco, and I think this is their culture, not Islam. I can't picture the Koran saying this. Again, I am no expert in Islam, but rather to me it is common sense I am basing this on.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have to admit that now I am more confused than ever regarding Islam. I have been debating back and forth for a while now if I would be willing to convert after learning much more regarding the religion. Now I don't know what to beleive. I have seen much more bickering among the muslim sisters than I ever have among my christian sisters. The mention of the "sex contract" has really upset me. I don't know what it's like in other countries, and I'm backing Layla on this one. I was not able to be in Egypt long enough to go here there and whatnot to have a wedding. Yes, we have the marriage contract, but our marriage was not consumated. So much for my sex contract, I should've gone for it eh? I don't know, I am finding myself more confused now because I feel now if I converted I would never be doing anything correctly. I beleive in God and I believe God loves me and I love him. Until then I will continue to do some serious soul searching and beleive in trust in God. That in itself is going to have to get me through life.

Nevermind, Layla; God was looking out for you that you weren't able to be intimate with no legalities. Masha'allah!

I'm not sure why you think you SHOULDN'T be confused. If religion was easy, everybody would be doing it! Christianity ain't easy either, but if it was satisfying to you, why would you ever consider leaving it for Islam? You should take your time and see what's right for you. God guides who He may.

Noura, I haven't read your email yet, but the Star and Crescent is a political symbol, not a religious one.

Does Allah not state that he has given a degree over women to men in the Quran? Lets see, only if he is following the Quran, and is guiding her in the same direction, correct? When he is given a degree over the woman I see that as it is his responsibility to take care of us and provide for us. Not, "you stay home because you are a woman and I will go out, because I am the man and I have dominion over you". Sorry...don't buy it.

I already posted the verse that refers to the excerpt. It is used in CONTEXT, not as a general statement.

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[amal 4]

I guess I feel like I should say something here coz something is bothering me.

First on my list is : I think it's great if a person converts to Islam due to the beliefs of Islam. If a person is converting due to their husband/wife being muslim...That's not good. A person should do a lot of research and studying and really know what they're converting to before they convert. I respect those of you that have said they are still researching and soul-searching before actually converting. MAJOR KUDOS TO YOU!!

I like to see ppl being smart!! I am considered christian but am still in search of the right religion. The more I learn about Islam, the more perfect it sounds for me. I'm agreeing that anyone thinking of converting to Islam should take their time and make a decision based on their hearts and beliefs..

Second thing on my list: About someone saying that Islam rules protect the women... AMEN TO THAT!!! If ppl see it differently, then I think it's possibly because they have not had the right resources and possibly not studied it with an open heart. This is just my opinion and I'm not wanting to start a quarrel coz everyone is allowed to feel the way they want to feel. Just coz I believe differently, doesn't make me anymore right or wrong than they are

that's all i have to say for now.. thanks

amal

Edited July 19, 2006 by amal

[UmmSqueakster 54]

This site has a pretty good explanation of the history of the use of the crescent moon in muslim societies.

And no, we don't worship a moon god

[Sofiyya 1,687]

First on my list is : I think it's great if a person converts to Islam due to the beliefs of Islam. If a person is converting due to their husband/wife being muslim...That's not good. A person should do a lot of research and studying and really know what they're converting to before they convert. I respect those of you that have said they are still researching and soul-searching before actually converting. MAJOR KUDOS TO YOU!!

I like to see ppl being smart!! I am considered christian but am still in search of the right religion. The more I learn about Islam, the more perfect it sounds for me. I'm agreeing that anyone thinking of converting to Islam should take their time and make a decision based on their hearts and beliefs..

Great advice!

Second thing on my list: About someone saying that Islam rules protect the women... AMEN TO THAT!!! If ppl see it differently, then I think it's possibly because they have not had the right resources and possibly not studied it with an open heart. This is just my opinion and I'm not wanting to start a quarrel coz everyone is allowed to feel the way they want to feel. Just coz I believe differently, doesn't make me anymore right or wrong than they are

Islam protects all, not just women. And men don't protect women, God does.