I am curious

[Sofiyya 1,687]

We don't always know what others are thinking, so sometimes we have to ask. This is slightly off-topic, but I am so curious, I just have to know. Why is it that when a meaty subject comes about (not only here, I see this on other message boards too), evitably there will be those who post to tell others that THEY don't like the subject, depth, tone, take your pick of offense, so NO ONE should be posting about it.

Why not just stay away from that particular thread instead of trying to stop others from going there? Out of sight, out of mind, imo. I'm plenty opinionated, but I've never felt the need to tell others what they can and cannot discuss when it's obvious that others are enjoying the exchange. Heck, there are plenty of other topics to participate in on any board, and only so many times you may feel like conveying another "Wow! I'm so happy for you!" or "I hope it all works out for you soon" in a day. There is plenty of opportunity for that. Some folks could use a diversion once in a while.

I'm not talking about complaining that a subject is inappropriate for a particular board, I've seen this attempt at censorship on lots of boards, not just this one. I'm saying that you just don't like discussing _____, so you want it to end for everyone who does like discussing _______. Please, clue me in as to how that works.

Thanks!

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[hollyw 0]

I can't exactly clue you in, because I mostly agree with you...

I don't mind the debate. I don't feel comfortable enough with my knowledge of Islam to contribute much to debates in this forum, but I do find them very very interesting and I feel like I really learn something by following them. If I come across a topic that isn't of particular interest, I just choose another thread. Maybe some people see it more as an uncomfortable argument than a debate. But I think that there is nothing wrong with two (or more) well informed people having a good discussion, even if it gets a little heated. B)

[sarah and hicham 3]

Some people feel very passionate about certain things and cannot simply turn their heads.

[Together4ever 1]

... And every single one of us lives in the little cloud of "what I believe is right" and will eventually defend it at some point.

Human nature, go figure.

[myfellah 0]

I just don't understand why people can't just read something and let it go. If you don't like it, move on. There is no reason why you have to comment on everything that is posted. I'm passionate about many things but there are so many people who will never see things your way no matter how many different ways you say it and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THESE PEOPLE FOR REAL. There seems to be so many that just like to stir things up and know certain people can't resist coming back again and again so they have their fun getting them angry.

I agree with ... And every single one of us lives in the little cloud of "what I believe is right" and will eventually defend it at some point. BUT, I guess I just feel I go on with my "real world" and know there are those that just don't want to listen or won't hear me.

And of course, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." Let those that want to debate have their fun and just move on.

Doreen

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Because perhaps they find it offensive and don't want to let it go unchallenged?

[morocco4ever 63]

In ways I agree with you, but there are things said sometimes on this board that really piss me off. Such as those that say that all consulates do their jobs well, and that if you didn't get approved its your fault. This is my touchy area, and I think we all have them.

But a healthy debate is fine, as long as it doesn't turn to nasty, cruel, and uncalled for comments. Not saying I am innocent of that, but in reality its the kind thing to do.

I do enjoy hearing about Islam since this is my husbands religion, and when he comes I will be converting as well. I like hearing it from a womans prospective, but one other thing....I like hearing it so if my husband tries to pull the wool over my eyes I am not so easily fooled. lol He is a man however, and sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

[Veiled Princess 1]

sometimes he says that what is okay for the man isn't necesarily okay for the woman in Islam. I call him on that one, I simply state that from everything I have learned about Islam the rules apply to both, and if you feel differently then it is from your culture, not Islam. He hates when I call him on it...lol...but he knows I am right.

Really? Is it the woman's responsibilty to provide for her husband? Are women responsible for fighting on the battle field when the need arises? Can women marry more than one husband at a time? Do men break their fasts and put off prayers when they are menstrating? Is it required for a man to have a wali present to get married?

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

Dear Veiled Princess…I have read so much of your input on the topic of Islam and I know that you could help me understand this statement…what does it mean exactly or how this statement is to be interpreted? My husband mentioned it one time when we were talking about Islam and I need a clarification as I think that I might have misunderstood it as a statement that is used to suppress women in some Islamic nations…Please help me as I do not want to have the wrong ideas about Islam…And it will be so great to hear a woman’s side of the spectrum on this statement…I hope that I am not overstepping and not stirring trouble here as I know that this topic can get heated…No harm intended…Thank you

Dorothy

[Bosco 1]

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

Dear Veiled Princess…I have read so much of your input on the topic of Islam and I know that you could help me understand this statement…what does it mean exactly or how this statement is to be interpreted? My husband mentioned it one time when we were talking about Islam and I need a clarification as I think that I might have misunderstood it as a statement that is used to suppress women in some Islamic nations…Please help me as I do not want to have the wrong ideas about Islam…And it will be so great to hear a woman’s side of the spectrum on this statement…I hope that I am not overstepping and not stirring trouble here as I know that this topic can get heated…No harm intended…Thank you

Dorothy

Dorothy,

If you are interested, I have a book that discusses this over the course of a few pages and I would be happy to scan it and send it to you. It analyzes the various ways this has been interpreted and how some of those interpretations seem out of balance with the rest of the Qur'an that teaches about human equality. If you are interested, PM me with your email address and I will scan the pages and send them to you. If you are REALLY interested, I could probably dig out some other books too, lol.

Rebecca

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

[2.228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

It has been interpreted in various ways, but one thing that is often overlooked, as it is in the way it was introduced by Layla, is that the excerpt is in an ayah about divorce, not about innate differences between genders, and to represent it as meaning that men are superior to women because they do not get pregnant is inane.

In contrast, as Rebeca stated, are other ayat, such as this one:

[4.1] O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, by Whom you demand one of another (your mutual rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely Allah ever watches over you.

One thing the Quran does not do is classify people in a lump, male female, Muslim and non-Muslim. It promises to us what we earn, and no one is responsible for the successes or failings of another. He lays down the same path to him for all and expects the same from each of us. He also knows that some of us, male and female, will excel over others because of what we do, not what sex we are.

This atah was revealed after some women went to the Prophet asking why the Quran was so often addressed to men. What did Allah want from them and how did they fit into His plan? Allah said:

[33.35] Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

As for the original issue about people complaining about who discusses what, I am not refering to those who actually CONTRIBUTE to a topic, pro or con, but to those who simply pipe up in an attempt to convince others not to talk about what they don't want to talk about. Why bother? If you don't care to join, stay off and move on.

Edited July 19, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Dear Veiled Princess…I have read so much of your input on the topic of Islam and I know that you could help me understand this statement…what does it mean exactly or how this statement is to be interpreted? My husband mentioned it one time when we were talking about Islam and I need a clarification as I think that I might have misunderstood it as a statement that is used to suppress women in some Islamic nations…Please help me as I do not want to have the wrong ideas about Islam…And it will be so great to hear a woman’s side of the spectrum on this statement…I hope that I am not overstepping and not stirring trouble here as I know that this topic can get heated…No harm intended…Thank you

Dorothy

Dorothy,

Disclaimer: this is my personal view and anyone here is free to disagree because Allah says in the Quran "there is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error."

Allah made men stronger and He gave them the responsibility to take care of us and spend from their means to support us so they have been given a degree over us for that. We should obey our husbands or fathers because of this and because we are commanded to in the book of Allah. That's just how it is. There must be a leader to every group. The people in a country can not rule themselves and neither can a home. The man (father/husband) is the "king" of his home and he has to provide for everyone in it. In exchange, those in it should obey him as long as he doesn't tell you to do something that is a sin. This also should not be used to oppress women because Allah also says in His book that oppression is worth than death. This is the main reason why any muslim woman should choose a righteous husband who fears and obeys Allah and not a non-muslim man who won't respect her rights or lead her in the way of Allah and His messenger.

It is not meant to suppress women but to keep us safe.

Islam gives women nearly twice as many rights as men. They may not be the same rights but it's fair.

Men and women are equal in Islam because our prophet said that the woman is the twin to the man, and a man has completed half of his imaan (faith) when he marries. We are the ones who give birth to the men and we are the first to teach them in this world. We are in a way, responsible for the future of the ummah, of course all things are with Allah alone and only He can allow or prevent anything, but you see my point.

Women in Islam have a high status which demands that we be cared for, protected and respected. Allah does not make laws for us to oppress us but to uplift us, guard us and prevent us from falling into that which would harm us. May Allah guide us all upon the straight path and grant us refuge in Him from ash-shaytaan, ameen.

I hope this helps you a little.

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

Does Allah not state that He has given a degree over women to men in the Quran?

[2.228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

It has been interpreted in various ways, but one thing that is often overlooked, as it is in the way it was introduced by Layla, is that the excerpt is in an ayah about divorce, not about innate differences between genders, and to represent it as meaning that men are superior to women because they do not get pregnant is inane.

In contrast, as Rebeca stated, are other ayat, such as this one:

[4.1] O people! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, many men and women; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, by Whom you demand one of another (your mutual rights), and (to) the ties of relationship; surely Allah ever watches over you.

One thing the Quran does not do is classify people in a lump, male female, Muslim and non-Muslim. It promises to us what we earn, and no one is responsible for the successes or failings of another. He lays down the same path to him for all and expects the same from each of us. He also knows that some of us, male and female, will excel over others because of what we do, not what sex we are.

This atah was revealed after some women went to the Prophet asking why the Quran was so often addressed to men. What did Allah want from them and how did they fit into His plan? Allah said:

[33.35] Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

As for the original issue about people complaining about who discusses what, I am not refering to those who actually CONTRIBUTE to a topic, pro or con, but to those who simply pipe up in an attempt to convince others not to talk about what they don't want to talk about. Why bother? If you don't care to join, stay off and move on.

Thank you for that...it helps to an extend...I just feel that there is so much to learn...

As for the original topic I am in full agreement with you SZSZ, these who do not want to participate should just ignore the topic and move on...there is no need to antagonize the participants and nothing constructive is accomplished by such unnecessary comments

[~*Dorothy*~ 2]

Dorothy,

Disclaimer: this is my personal view and anyone here is free to disagree because Allah says in the Quran "there is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error."

Allah made men stronger and He gave them the responsibility to take care of us and spend from their means to support us so they have been given a degree over us for that. We should obey our husbands or fathers because of this and because we are commanded to in the book of Allah. That's just how it is. There must be a leader to every group. The people in a country can not rule themselves and neither can a home. The man (father/husband) is the "king" of his home and he has to provide for everyone in it. In exchange, those in it should obey him as long as he doesn't tell you to do something that is a sin. This also should not be used to oppress women because Allah also says in His book that oppression is worth than death. This is the main reason why any muslim woman should choose a righteous husband who fears and obeys Allah and not a non-muslim man who won't respect her rights or lead her in the way of Allah and His messenger.

It is not meant to suppress women but to keep us safe.

Islam gives women nearly twice as many rights as men. They may not be the same rights but it's fair.

Men and women are equal in Islam because our prophet said that the woman is the twin to the man, and a man has completed half of his imaan (faith) when he marries. We are the ones who give birth to the men and we are the first to teach them in this world. We are in a way, responsible for the future of the ummah, of course all things are with Allah alone and only He can allow or prevent anything, but you see my point.

Women in Islam have a high status which demands that we be cared for, protected and respected. Allah does not make laws for us to oppress us but to uplift us, guard us and prevent us from falling into that which would harm us. May Allah guide us all upon the straight path and grant us refuge in Him from ash-shaytaan, ameen.

I hope this helps you a little.

Thank you for sharing and helping me understand this subject...most of what you have written was what my husband said to me using same analogies...it is one thing that I love about Islam - the use of analogies...I am starting to see where my problem is...When I listen to him talking about these things I am not opening my mind and my heart fully to the message of Islam...meaning that I still use my western view of Islam and therefore I am prejudicial to the message itself by looking and analyzing it in a wrong perspective...It is so hard for me to let go but I guess I have to be patient...Thanks for being patient with me and taking time to explain what puzzles me...I appreciate this so much

Dorothy

[Bosco 1]

One thing I would suggest is when looking at the conclusions people draw (including scholars) is to look not only at the final conclusion but how they came upon it.

There are times where they will form an opinion because it is not explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an and Sunnah, and other times form an opinion on the basis that it is not explicitly permissible in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Rules of interpretation are not always applied in the same way, so I think it is just as important to understand why that person has come to that particular conclusion and see if you agree with the methodology. I have found that in many of the things that I perceive restrict women, a sort of reverse methodology is used, i.e. - there is no precedent in the sources, it is not clearly stated to be permissible so the conclusion is drawn that it is forbidden. However, the opposite method is used in broader subjects "it is not forbidden so it must be permissible".

Also, the Qur'an is meant to be the first source, but many use ahadith and Sunnah to interpret the Qur'an, instead of the other way around.

My two dirhams...

Rebecca